Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Emmaleem on January 27, 2009, 09:36:25 PM
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Ryanjm points out the minimal role of sex/sexuality in the Mistborn series here: http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6410.0. (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6410.0.)
Whether or not you like Mistborn that way, and whether or not you think characters are more realistic when their attractions are dwelt on more, I think you could make a case for the Vin/Elend romance as less successful than Raoden/Sarene or Susebron/Siri.
Maybe it's just me. But Raoden/Sarene--ah! the tension was great, that perfect romantic suspense of knowing two people are meant for each other, have to get together, but have impossible obstacles in front of them. Seriously great romance. And the Susebron/Siri romance was equally if not more compelling for me, particularly because I didn't expect it from the start. (Not Vasher/Vivenna though, at least not in the version I read. When they ended up together, I felt a let down and a huh? I needed more buildup to believe and be happy for them.)
But Vin/Elend? I don't know, something about it doesn't work as well for me as the other ones. [disclaimer: I loved the series, it kept me up late reading, I'm not dissing the books, just analyzing a bit.] Did anyone else feel that way? I'm trying to figure out why. For me, it's not the absence of sex; in fact, I think too many sexual references destroy the kind of romantic tension I'm referring to. Maybe it's the way their relationship is kind of strung between two novels; you think they end up together after the first one, but Vin's not really committed, but the "should I marry Elend or not" is not really the focus of Book 2, or at least not as much as I would have liked.
What do you think? Which romance do you find most successful, and why?
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Romantic tension makes for interesting novels, but not necessarily good romance. There was not romantic tension between Elend and Vin because they were in love with each other and knew it and each knew the other loved them. Their problems which stood in the way of their relationship were not how they felt about each other but about how each felt about him or herself. So while it may not make for compelling romantic fiction, it's not at all unrealistic and doesn't mean their love wasn't legitimate.
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I completely agree with you about Raoden/Sarene. That was perfect. Vin/Elend? I can see your point. But it really wasn't all that much of a subplot, and I liked it that way. When Zane was introduced to complete the "romantic triangle" and give Elend some competition, I was like oh brother. I don't know if that was Brandon's intention or not to try to bring out the romantic subplot, but it didn't work for me.
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I agree that Raoden/Sarene had the best romance. I'd love to see even more, but, hey, Brandon doesn't write romance novels.
When Zane was introduced to complete the "romantic triangle" and give Elend some competition, I was like oh brother. I don't know if that was Brandon's intention or not to try to bring out the romantic subplot, but it didn't work for me.
It was my impression that it was not so much that she was choosing between the two men as it was choosing between the two different lifestyles. It didn't seem like she was romantically interested in Zane, only "professionally".
(Not Vasher/Vivenna though, at least not in the version I read. When they ended up together, I felt a let down and a huh? I needed more buildup to believe and be happy for them.)
Am I missing something here? I thought they went off together in the end for non-romantic reasons. (basically, Viv looking for a different life) Anyone else?
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I got the impression they were meant to be a couple, but weren't quite there yet. Brandon said their story will continue in the second book, whereas the main part of Siri/Susebron's story is done.
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Ookla, I think that where Book 2 threw me off is the way it pretended that tension existed when it didn't. The Zane subplot, Vin's dithering over whether she was going to get married. And I agree that the lack of romantic tension doesn't de-legitimize love. I just didn't think the in-between stage of their relationship portrayed in Book 2 was that successful. Have a DTR already ;). And if I'm thinking "have a DTR already" instead of enjoying and anticipating what's going to happen, then it doesn't work as well for me.
Reaves, amen about Zane.
Melbatoast, "Brandon doesn't write romance novels." True enough. But it's pretty hard to pull off a romance that doesn't make me roll my eyes. I love a good romance, but I also have a low tolerance for cheese, so I'm picky.
So I guess while he doesn't write genre romance, I would hope he always sticks a good romance someplace in his books, because he does them very well.
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Personally, I'm the type of guy that likes "No Guts, No Glory" stories, but i do think that romance can make any story MUCH better. While I wish there had been a tad more in the Elend/Vin department, I dont think much more could have been done without it feeling tacked on. Lets face it, we all knew they were gonna get together from the first ball.
This is why Breeze's tension, Spook's (to a degree) and especially Sazed's tension were so important in the story. I mean, the romantic tension and then the tragedy for Sazed in book 2 set up arguably the most important parts of book 3. Romantic tension and the tragedy that results from it formed the basis for Kel's life in book 1. I'd say the novels are in good shape considering the themes and what was at stake.
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I loved the Sazed and Kelsier tension; Breeze... meh, I don't know, it was a nice way to lighten Book 3, I think, and that was definitely needed, but the romance itself didn't really grab me. I didn't have enough invested in them. And that's okay; they are supporting characters.
But Sazed, yes, that was nicely done. Really heart-wrending.
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I actually feel that the Vin/Elend relationship is much more true-to-life than the others. Maybe that's why people don't find it that interesting. When you study people with relationship issues, most of the time it is a self-esteem issue from one or both parties. Vin did not believe she deserved Elend, which is frustrating from a reader's perspective. Relationships are destroyed every day for much more trivial things than impending doom, overthrowing a evil dictator, and having the fate of the entire world on your shoulders. If that's not love, then nothing is.
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I liked the Raoden/Sarene romance at the beginning, but in the end it went way too quickly for my taste. First Sarene distrusted him and while she was in Elantris her feelings for him appear to have changed radically but we get no POV of hers until she gets out and then she`s much too preoccupied with Hrathen, Teod`s conversion and the ensuing problems to reflect on her feelings for Raoden. As reader, I can see the two fit together well, but I don`t get when they realize it, too. I really missed interaction between the two.
Looking back, I think I may be hijacking this thread since it was mainly meant for the Vin/Elend relationship - sorry. If you think this post is inappropriate here, just ignore it :)
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When Zane was introduced to complete the "romantic triangle" and give Elend some competition, I was like oh brother. I don't know if that was Brandon's intention or not to try to bring out the romantic subplot, but it didn't work for me.
Yeah. It kinda threw me for a loop when Zane expected Vin to go away with him, and Vin actually considered it. They never even spoke to each other beyond "why do you serve them?" and "you're not like them, you're different." Was that supposed to be Zane courting Vin? Because they never really said anything beyond that and yet Vin was still thinking "hmm, I don't know this guy, but he fights well, so maybe I should leave my fiance for him." ??? I was glad when Vin got over this period of indecision and started acting more rationally.
I think Vin and Elend's whole relationship was left a little undeveloped. Yes, there was an ongoing crises, but whenever they were together, it was rare that they showed any type of affection. I think that ties really closely with the lack of sexuality, because I associate sexuality and romance (some of it anyway) with touching. No massaging away the tension, no light kisses when they were together, just discussing their problems and the business that needed to be done. An example: The very first chapter in HoA where Vin and Elend are alone together, Elend wakes up from a nap to find Vin already washed and dressed. Elend thinks that Vin is pushing herself too hard and is concerned about her (which shows he cares about her, but it could be in the same way you care about a friend or relative). Then they discuss a problem and depart.
If you wanted to add a little romance to the scene, which would have shown that they had a deeper affection for each other, you could have had Elend wake up while Vin is still dressing, and he appreciates how all the running around and fighting has strengthened her body and made her lean and toned. Then you could have Vin see Elend wake up and she smiles and walks over to ask how he feels now that he's getting used to being a Mistborn while she massages his neck. Maybe a little joke that she's sad that she can't take care of him anymore now that he's all big and powerful. She notices the tension in his neck and worries about him but thinks he's become a much stronger person in the last 2 years....etc... you can see how easy it is to work into the narrative while still adding important bits of information about the characters' state of mind, what they think about their new abilities, etc...
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I did like how they were together in the second book and having problems. Often in fiction two people get together and blamo, that's it everytings perfect. In my experiance most of the problems happen after people get together, and so it was nice to see that.
I do agree that the third book was kind of lacking in the dynamics of their relationship though. Granted there was a lot of serious stuff going down at the time, but still.
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I would've liked to have seen more conflict in their relationship. It was there, I just think that it wasn't explored enough. Basically there was two Cinderella stories here, you had the street urchin who fell in love with the prince, and you had the book worm who fell in love with the super hero.
I think it would have added depth to their relationship to see more push/pull. Considering Vin's roots, the fact that she was abandoned, didn't feel comfortable in dresses or make-up, and seeing Elend surrounded by noble women who were comfortable in their skin, I would have liked to have read more, " I really like him/he'd never be happy with me" kind of doubt. As far as Elend goes, Men in general want to be the bread winner, the knight in shining armor, the protector of their family, so it had to have been hard to have his girlfriend rescue him all the time. Then with her hanging around mistings and mistborn had to have had him feeling somewhat emasculated.
Now the book touched base on a lot of this stuff, and some people have written that it was there we just weren't in their heads. That's what I think was missing in their relationship. I think that if we could've read more about that part of their relationship then the Zane sequence would have been more compelling to me. Also in Hero of Ages when Vin said she had nothing else to live for after Elend died and then she sacrificed herself, that part surprised me. That statement is a statement of deep love that I didn't feel was there. I think that reading more of their doubts, insecurities and watching the relationship grow would've also made the ending that much more emotional.
On a side note I think that one of Sanderson's strengths is his ability to develop side characters. As much as I enjoyed reading about Vin/Elend, I thought they kept getting overshadowed by other characters. In the first book it was Kelsier, who was the first fantasy character I read who was an adult, optimistic, had a plan for everything, he became my favorite character in the fantasy genre. In WoA, it was Zane he was just really mysterious. who was he, was he good or bad, was he insane or not, what does he really want with Vin. I was disappointed in how abruptly he got killed off. In HoA it was Spook. I almost found him more interesting that Kelsier. In all those three characters were mysterious oddities that I enjoyed reading.
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Maybe that's what I found off putting with the second book, the chase was over so to speak. They had each other but they still had some road blocks but it just didn't feel the same way it did when they first saw each other in that first ball scene. I mean it felt like something was missing and I just wasn't sure what it was.
Kelsier to me wasn't a side character, he was Vin's Old Wise man, her Dumbledore, Merlin and Gandalf.
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What I missed in Warbreaker was a foundation showing something of the relationships in the family and community in Idris. It's hard to take Vivenna seriously at first, because Siri is the focus for so much of the book. It's really hard to sympathize with her desire to prove her self and to save her sister because we don't really get the chance to see her as the responsible sib.
It would be nice to have more foundation for that, to see a bit more development of the plot in the city. Maybe a few failed attempts to infiltrate the staff of the gods.
If we could spend as much time working with Warbreaker to earn her his respect and for Vivenna to become a fully fledged Awakener (pea-cock), as we did on the mercenaries. This would round the novel out to about 300K words and let us understand Vivenna rather than Siri as the Heroin.
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I agree with melbatoast that in #2 she was choosing a life not a man and i had no real problem with the romantic side of book 2 i bought it it was real though i did have problems with book 3 i mean Vin finnally starts to believe she is more than a street urchin who got lucky and they hit a wall the romance doesn't really show untill the end when she makes her power grab and fuses with the mist.
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Vin and Elend's romance is actually my favorite out of all the books, because it seems the most realistic. The romance was very important to both of them, but it wasn't their reason for living. It seemed to me that the romance in book 2 was mostly about Vin's discovering who she was and if that was consistent with a relationship with Elend.
I love how they work together, talk often, and so forth... it seemed to me that they were friends first and lovers second. Which, I think, is how it works best.
I also really loved the theme of trust... that they had to make a conscious choice that they'd rather trust the other person when they couldn't know for sure what the other person was thinking or doing.
The one thing I didn't like was how much time it took for Vin to make up her mind. But then again, it is very realistic.
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I think a problem here is that far too many people go for the Hollywood romances.
You know the sort. The kind that you can see coming from a mile away, where the female protagonist and male protagonist can be spotted within thirty seconds of appearing on-screen. It's the chick-flick template.
And it's unrealistic. Almost nobody in the real world goes through the chick-flick template. Everybody I've seen starts off as friends (maybe with active interest in the future, but not right off) and then becomes boyfriend/girlfriend, and then gets serious and marries. No misunderstandings that drive them apart and sudden epiphanies of love. Just a gradual folding together into each others lives.
Most people date lots of people. You can't spot your spouse from a mile away. It just doesn't happen that way. I've heard of exceptions (who hasn't?) but the only one I saw was dysfunctional. Big time.
So what people don't see in Mistborn is the stereotypical romance. Which is fine. They won't experience it either, if they're lucky.
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That's true. The way it was portrayed is just how i imagined it would be. After all the obstacles of course.
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I really liked the Vin and Elend part for book 1 and 2 but for 3 well lets say the love was no longer developing and left me feeling as if something was lacking though i really liked Suri and Susebron along with Raoden and Whats her face (as you can tell it's been a while) especially when they are in the ruins together...
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I guess I feel like, especially in book three, the Vin/Elend romance was no longer much of a plot point. It was never a major plot point even in book one or two, but even still not a whole lot of time was devoted to it.
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I just finished Elantris, and I have to say Raoden/Sarene was sickening. They felt very artificial and it was definitely a “Mary Sue” kind of relationship. Like the overall novel, hated their relationship.
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I suspect you're misusing the term "Mary Sue." There's no author avatar involved in Elantris.
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You know it's not a popular concept but I really think Rigney's stint as Regan Alexander really improved his serious writing. Maybe SF&F should encourage more authors to do crossover novels on the bodice-ripper racks.
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I've read some romantic fantasy (the best of these that I've and there seems to be a sense of holding back on some elements of regular fantasy to encourage the readers of romance to try and enjoy these books. For example, making the bad guys evil sorcerers, but not too evil, just sort of nasty and unpleasant.
Then epic fantasy, especially that modeled after LoTR, has little or no romance, with female characters stock figures, if they are there at all. This is improving however.
Perhaps if this romantic fantasy subgenre develops a bit more it will become a mixing point to enrich both genres and lead the readers of each to widen their vistas.
I say that but I wouldn't open a regular romance books unless offered a lot of money. And then I might lie about it to anyone who knows me.
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I think it's really cool that Brandon Sanderson can write different styles of romances. He has the realism in Vin and Elend, the chick-flick in Raoden and Sarene, a dramatic, classic style in Spook and his girl (forgot the name), and I don't even know how to describe Siri and Susebron. Vin and Elend were my favorite, followed closely by Siri and Susebron.
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I think that's called the "freaking scary arranged marriage that works out" style.
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I just wonder how he will handle the WoT romances. Will he maintain their tone? if that makes any sense.
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I'm sure he's doing is darnedest to do just that.
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I think that's called the "freaking scary arranged marriage that works out" style.
Yes, yes it is. I think that when arranged marriages are more common, this kind of romance is more popular. Hope is important.
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Ironically the new rise in matchmakers suggests a lot of people are attracted to arranged marriage as long as it isn't forced onto them.