Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Reading Excuses => Topic started by: Revast on February 03, 2009, 03:27:23 PM
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Disclaimer: If you don't like (or better can't discuss) foul language please stop reading.
I was reading Deckacards review for Chapter 1: Memory, and there was a small discussion on using the world Bloody as a swearing word. It was suggested that it felt to Robert Jordan. Do most other feel this way?
This is something I've really been struggling with in my current writing. I have great difficulty using words like 'F**k/f**king', 'C**t', etc... For some reason I feel OK with s**t, bloody, and arse/A**. Also I would worry that including the most in your face cuss words in the English language might turn off many readers, but they do seem to fit better.
I do not like the idea of making up cuss words. Every book I've ever read that does that I just sat there thinking "Why not say the real thing if that's what you mean." Bloody seems different because it is a real cuss world in the Merry old England. Any thoughts? What do you do? Sometimes I feel like I should just go with how the characters are really saying it in my head rather than censoring them, but I haven't been able to get myself to do it.
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For me, honestly...unless i'm doing a short story and it's relevant/fits, I avoid anything stronger than "shirt"...f*bombs and sexually explicit cuss words may add a little bit more to your character, but at great expense to your story. Strong cussing based on real cuss words that carry meaning for the reader have too great an impact on the feel of your story. They distract from it and give your story a feel you're not going for...it becomes too difficult for the reader to separate the feel of the character from the tone of your story. Cuss words are VERY visible.
Regarding made-up cuss words...I think there are two reasons, in my opinion, this doesn't work WHEN it doesn't work : 1) The writer over-does it...they make-up a replacement cuss word for every conceivable cuss word in the English language. It just sounds "hinky"... 2) The writer just doesn't take the time to come up with a decent word. I see tons of published authors that I would swear just changed a letter or two in a real cuss word and didn't give any thought to sound, feel, etc. A cuss word really has to SOUND and FEEL like a cuss word. If not, it's just awkward. I really think many authors don't realize how much of an impact cuss words have on dialgue/scenes/characters/and story tone.
For the most part, however, i think good made-up words work great...cuss words are highly rooted in culture...and using words not part of their culture will expose your character.
I would also throw in a note about establishing your cuss words. If you make-up a word, the tricky thing is establishing it without over-using it. Many of the cuss words we have in real life sound good because we've heard them a lot. So, if you use a cuss word once in a critical scene and then never before or again, it's just awkward dialogue. But if you establish it by using it here or there throughout with the right characters without over-using it...then it sounds normal.
Ultimately...I do whatever I think the character would really say within the proper tone of the story. Of course, if you establish in your head a spectrum of cussing - for example: "bloody" is the worst but other words you make up are less in severity - then the characters can react to a character's foul language when they use bloody...then, they sound like an f*bomb character without distracting from the story...like in Robert Jordan's books.
just my opinions, though...
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I agree with deckacards. In no way am I trying to come off preachy, but ask yourself, "Does my story really need these words?" and "Will I be ashamed if my mother, wife, husband, children, boss read these expletives. The token answer among those with low self-esteem is to brush it off and say, "I don't care what anyone thinks." But the reality is, your work is your legacy. What do you want people to remember you for? A foul mouth or a brilliant author. IMHO, it makes the author sound immature, like they are stuck in high school. A good example would be rappers. I actually like some rap music, but ultimately I get turned off by the swearing. The sad part is, the rapper "usually" has such a beautiful gift to be able to sing in such a way, but the talent and appreciation is lost in the choice of words used.
Granted, if you are going to write a story that is set in a world or setting that would use such words...you would be lying to try and hide that aspect of reality. For example, you couldn't write a story about a high school locker room without having swear words. It would be foolish to ignore it. So what do you do? I honestly don't have the answer. I like the idea of made up swear words, but I can see how it would sound dumb.
I guess what my rant is...if you don't need to use them...don't. I doesn't make your characters any more "real". It can and will damage them and you in the long run.
*M steps down from his soapbox*
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Not so much in PHYLES (not at all to be honest), but in my current book cussing fits like a charm and I've dropped a lot of F-bombs.
As for the word "bloody", I always think of England...
For me, honestly...unless i'm doing a short story and it's relevant/fits, I avoid anything stronger than "shirt"...f*bombs and sexually explicit cuss words may add a little bit more to your character, but at great expense to your story.
I completely disagree. If, like in my newest book, all your characters are at best the scum of the earth then cussing fits. In PHYLES all my characters were well educated, and were always out of a position in which they could curse without repercussions due to class differences. otherwise cussing would've fit there too.
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In no way am I trying to come off preachy, but ask yourself, "Does my story really need these words?" and "Will I be ashamed if my mother, wife, husband, children, boss read these expletives. The token answer among those with low self-esteem is to brush it off and say, "I don't care what anyone thinks."
I have no family, and I really couldn't care less if people don't like cussing in my books. I give fair warnings, that's enough.
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Hey, Revast, can I ask you to censor your first post? I know you're just making a point, but I'm pretty sure the Powers That Be would like to keep the forum free of swearing.
And now, somewhat ironically after asking you to censor your post, I'm going to turn around and say I don't really think you SHOULD censor yourself while writing.
First off, I think made-up swear words are very, very hard to do right. In fact, Jordan is one of the few people whose made-up swearwords I could read without rolling my eyes (and we've had eleven big fat books to get used to his cuss words). A lot of times it seems authors with made-up curse words just come up with things that sound dumb, and if it sounds dumb, I'll be annoyed and wondering why they didn't just say what they mean.
The other thing is, there's a difference between a character who drops the F-bomb when he's closed his fingers in a door, and a character who just says "shoot". So I do think it does, or can, make a difference to your characterization.
I don't think it makes an author look immature, either, at least not if it's done correctly. If a character's gonna swear, let him swear. It's when the swearing becomes gratuitous - when the author is putting the swearing in there just because he can - that it becomes annoying and makes the author look immature or incompetent.
If it's true to your characterization, let it stay there (and only then). You might alienate some people in your audience who are uncomfortable with that, but you can't please everyone. Ultimately, as long as it's something you're comfortable signing your own name to, just do whatever you want.
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Is that edited enough? Or would you rather I removed the words altogether and made it a more generic question?
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Using real cusses in the English language will give your work more of a grounded, "gritty" feel to it. It will make it seem slightly less removed, which in my opinion is generally a good thing.
Many people said that they liked the way Jordan did his curses, and I agree. I think that is because they aren't one-f0r-one translations. "Blood and bloody ashes" really doesn't translate to anything we say, although its used the same way as "oh, shirt."
Also, you probably want the curses to come directly from your world. For example, Vin says, "Oh, Lord" which comes from, of course, The Lord Ruler. It doesn't work as well for me as it might for some because I connect people who say that with elderly southern baptists, but hey. "Oh, lawdy!" :P Its a good example of the world directly informing the words the characters use.
In my Crystalheart work, the characters swear. However I've avoided using f*** because personally, thats a line I just don't want to cross. I've decided not to go there. However, I've introduced a character who uses mild profanity almost constantly, and sometimes its a bit of a challenge to find a replacement that fits :D
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However I've avoided using f*** because personally, thats a line I just don't want to cross.
I don't see that as an author crossing a line, but a character's use of language. And I don't think it directly reflects on the author BECAUSE he/she is trying to honestly voice a character. If the character would say a cuss word in a given situation, then go ahead and put it in, IMO.
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Yeah, I think that's fine Revast. Thanks.
Reaves makes an interesting point regarding Jordan's cuss words and lack of an exact "translation". I'd never thought of that before...
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However I've avoided using f*** because personally, thats a line I just don't want to cross.
I don't see that as an author crossing a line, but a character's use of language. And I don't think it directly reflects on the author BECAUSE he/she is trying to honestly voice a character. If the character would say a cuss word in a given situation, then go ahead and put it in, IMO.
I understand what you're saying. However its just something that I don't want in my book right now. Somewhere along the way that may change, in a different story, but for now thats just a barrier I've set for myself. I don't want to be reading that in my own work and I don't want other people reading that in it either.
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Dialogue isn't a direct copy of real life speech. Accordingly, I think that the infamous f-word and the like should stay out of it, because they always stand out. Their real words in an environment that merely aims to appear real. So just as we take needless repetition, pauses and filler words out of written dialogue, we should take the foul language down a notch. Then it'll still be bloody obvious that the character is swearing, but it won't be as noticable and won't distract the reader.
Or maybe that's just me. ;)
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There is one other aspect of this to keep in mind everyone is forgetting: write to your audience. If you are writing to children and dropping the F bomb, you are going to get black listed by parents. If however your characters are not acting believable and conveying how they feel through speech, older readers won't find them believable (i.e. If I were to slam my finger in a heavy metal door I would probably yell something bad despite my tendency not to cuss).
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Dialogue isn't a direct copy of real life speech. Accordingly, I think that the infamous f-word and the like should stay out of it, because they always stand out. Their real words in an environment that merely aims to appear real. So just as we take needless repetition, pauses and filler words out of written dialogue, we should take the foul language down a notch. Then it'll still be bloody obvious that the character is swearing, but it won't be as noticeable and won't distract the reader.
Cussing only distracts when it's awkward (fake words), or out of character. There a few people who would have a finger bitten off and not shout a cuss word (yeah, I'm looking at you Frodo).
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It is a lot about who you are and your background. My father is a pipefitter (that a welder on REALLY big projects, refineries and things). I grew up in a very blue-collar home. My husband's mother told me once she thought Ender's Game was a terrible book and how could any decent person read it-because of the swearing. So we have often had conversations about what constitutes "a lot of swearing" in any given book. He notices much more than I do and it bothers him more. If we were to write novels I think that difference would show up in our word choices.
I think David Weber is a good example of swearing matching the character and the setting. The bad guys are always the worst, the commanding officers rarely swear and the battle scenes always have much more. It is not a casual thing to him, or so I believe seeing how he writes.
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Another thing about cuss words is that they are very emotive. With just one word you can express meaning and emotion and situation. That's one of the reasons made-up words don't work for me.
And while I'm no expert on foreign language, some who are explained to me that many of the English swear words we use don't really translate well. As wcarter4 said, write to your target audience. A character saying another is a COW just doesn't have the same effect as SOB in America.
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I think we're having two conversations here.
1) A judgmental discussion on whether or not cussing in novels is appropriate / acceptable / bad for your career, etc
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2) How do you, as a fantasy author, create cuss words that are convincing and effective without bringing the reader out of the experience.
Personally, I think #1 is a fine diuscussion, but not one I'm interested in. I'd love to hear more specific ideas about #2. Necroben brings up a good point that it's not necessarily the words themselves, but rather the delivery and context that makes it work. That's why Robert Jordan's swearing is so good.
And, FWIW, my favorite Robert Jordan cuss term is when Elayne says "Mother's milk in a cup!" :)
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And, FWIW, my favorite Robert Jordan cuss term is when Elayne says "Mother's milk in a cup!" :)
That one always makes me gag.
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The question is not whether or not to cuss in literature. It is not a matter of the roughness or pureness of a character. It is whether or not to use english language cultural elements in a situation/culture that would not make sense to the setting.
Fantasy novels are special circumstances. You cannot just port over cultural references all willy-nilly into a fantasy universe.
If I start talking about bales of hay in a society that has not yet invented a hay baler, I am mixing up my cultural (and temporal) references.
English language curse words are the same way in a fantasy setting. Each word has a specific history, origin, context, and reason for it being taboo. Contrary to popular belief it is not a curse word because it sounds harsh.
We have a few different types of curse words. There are the body part/function words. There are the religious words. And there are others.
And actually, here the body words and religious words are related because the body words represent a taboo for early (especially puritan) christian culture. Catholocism says sex is bad, so vulgar/common references to it became taboo.
The same follows for all of our curse words. There is a reason why they are taboo and that reason directly reflects the culture.
Taking this into consideration then, dropping an "f-bomb" while some may see this as adding grit/realism in fact takes away from the carefully planned culture of the story you are writing.
It is not censorship to leave english curses out of Fantasy any more than it is censorship to leave out references to Rome, Divince or NASA. To do so destroys the 'reality' of the culture you are creating.
Which is why I always recommend authors to think about the culture of the book first. Decide what are its taboos or holy things and THEN formulate simple curse words around those culture-specific themes.
This is why Jordan's words work so well and other fantasy writers may or may not. You have to REALLY understand the culture you are working with. Jordan was ALL about culture.
You can sometimes get away with a couple of the english language curse IF there is a similar cultural reason. For example Vin's use of "Lord" which was brought up earlier. It just happens to coincide with our word.
The person who talked about translation is right. This also why many times (thanks to Tolkien probably) authors refer to the book being a translation of the story from the language of the world we are reading about.
There SHOULD be things that do not have a direct coorelation to our world and culture. Author's should NOT just make up words to replace our curse words exactly. If they are being that lazy and that terrible at world building, they should just use the original words, because they've already broken the culture.....
So, if the made up word feels wrong in the story, that is probably because the culture did not dictate the word.
I submit that unless the story takes place in our world OR there is a strong correlary between cultural themes, you should NEVER use the various English language curse words in a work of Fantasy.
In short, it betrays all the work of world building and characterization.
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I submit that unless the story takes place in our world OR there is a strong correlary between cultural themes, you should NEVER use the various English language curse words in a work of Fantasy.
In short, it betrays all the work of world building and characterization.
I STILL disagree. What f*** means now isn't it's original meaning, no doubt, but if your writing a fantasy that has a likewise vulgar word for sex then there is no uses in prettying it up. Doubtless, the world you create and the original meaning of f*** wouldn't match up, but the current use of the word would. Writing is all about getting the meaning across, not playing up the "uniqueness" of your world.
Jordan and Tolkien spent YEARS world building (Tolkien took decades, and Jordan too about four years), that's why they have all the individual, culturally relevant, and "unoffensive" cures (I don't think Tolkien's "cures words" could even count as cussing). Unless you plan on spending years world building, it's best to use the relatively closes existing cuss word.
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I think you are confusing "playing up the uniqueness" with creating coherence.
You lose the chance to apply subtle characterization and cultural depth if you fall prey to the cliches of English vulgarities. (They are so boring too.) You could simply imply that someone is angry by having them spout the f word. OR you could actually do some prep work and make the world more realistic and the character more real by coming up with a cultural reason why they are using an expletive in the first place, expanding on the culture of their birth, commenting on their current situation, AND expressing their anger.
You get all this for adding one original curse instead of being lazy.
Our swear words just have no meaning anymore. 'Stronger' swear words have replaced 'weaker' ones in usage. (for example What the 'heck' becomes What the 'F'). Making absolutely no sense. They have become watered down cliches used as filler. I would think people would leap at the opportunity to create something original.
By that same logic, why don't we just use earth as the setting for all our stories, instead of playing up the uniqueness of your world?
If you are writing in spanish would you use english curse words? no.
Curse words in text are not supposed to simply be curse words. Every word in a story has to be there for a specific reason. ESPECIALLY when you are creating a world from scratch. (edit: Also, it isn't so much about what curse words do/mean to the reader as much as what they mean to the character saying them.)
And I disagree, writing may be about getting meaning across, but writing novels is about story. Plot and character and setting are all too important to be wasted on cliches.
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You’re confusing lazy with practical. I don’t write six to ten book series focusing on the wide world and the diversity of people. I write standalones focusing on individual characters and trying to make them stand out with “close up shots”. Writing fake cuss words is a waste of time, because 1: my books only range about 90,000 words long (there isn’t a hole lot of time for excess crap). 2: my novels are character driven, not world oriented. 3: I want to, in that small amount of time, make my characters as relatable as possible—using real cuss words does this.
I also see how you think George RR Martian, Gene Wolfe, and Joe Abercrombie are all lazy writers. ::)
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GRRM is incredibly lazy, at turning out books at least. But that is another discussion I'm not really interested in.
Also, did Tolkien actually make up any curses? I keep on thinking of The Hobbit, where Gollum literally says "Curses!" :P
As someone mentioned, whether you should use English curses really mostly depends on what kind of world you have. For example, in Scott Lynch's Gentlemen Bastards sequence, he actually uses some French and Latin terms. He quotes poets and Chinese proverbs wholesale from our world into some of the chapter and section headings. It is all a matter of choice. (Also, there are copious amounts of English curses :D )
And actually, here the body words and religious words are related because the body words represent a taboo for early (especially puritan) christian culture. Catholocism says sex is bad, so vulgar/common references to it became taboo.
I wouldn't make assumptions about the Puritans. They were not Catholic, and neither did they think sex was sinful. In fact they would exercise punishment against husbands who neglected their marital duties :D :D I quite understand your point though about the general attitude of Catholic Christianity.
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I wouldn't make assumptions about the Puritans. They were not Catholic, and neither did they think sex was sinful. In fact they would exercise punishment against husbands who neglected their marital duties :D :D I quite understand your point though about the general attitude of Catholic Christianity.
We're getting way off topic here, but before the moderators shut this down....
Don't be fooled. ALL of the Western religions have taboos on sex. The Puritans were fine with married couples and (as most Christian faiths preach) believed that you should be out there going at it because it resulted in babies. But casual sex for pleasure, or sex outside of marriage was a bad thing to them.
As a person who was brought up Catholic here in the USA, it took me a long time for me to be able to step back and see that, to a very large portion of the world, (ie, to cultures other than American or European Judo-Christian) sex is not a big deal and something that should be celebrated and shared first, not bottled up and repressed.
And for the record... read my comments above carefully. I make no judgements, nor am I taking sides. Just stating observations.
(I should be a politician)
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I've been reading through my email inbox and discovered an interesting thing. I've been subscribing to a series of writing tips from David Farland/Wolverton and found one on profanity. It doesn't specifically address profanity in fantasy or science fiction but rather how to do it well, or if you should. Its pretty interesting. I'm not going to summarize it, but I can forward it to those who would like me to; just send me a PM with your email. Also, if you'd like to subscribe (its free) send a message to [email protected] saying "Kick me!" (btw thats not a joke, thats actually how you get on the list.)
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ok...been gone for a while dealing with virus issues...so couldn't respond...
Let me start with this, maxo:
Quote from: deckacards on Yesterday at 07:47:12 AM
For me, honestly...unless i'm doing a short story and it's relevant/fits, I avoid anything stronger than "shirt"...f*bombs and sexually explicit cuss words may add a little bit more to your character, but at great expense to your story.
I completely disagree. If, like in my newest book, all your characters are at best the scum of the earth then cussing fits. In PHYLES all my characters were well educated, and were always out of a position in which they could curse without repercussions due to class differences. otherwise cussing would've fit there too.
Maxo...let me be clear...if it fits...IF it fits...then you should absolutely cuss...I would go so far as to say IF it fits, then you have an obligation to your story to cuss and cuss as strongly as need be to FIT...
My point is this...many people I read that cuss in their writing (talking unpublished or rarely published here...) do NOT understand the impact a single cuss word can have on the tone of your story. I don't really think you're disagreeing with me...you just said that it fits in one story, so you do it...but in another, it does not.
Cussing strongly in a story has an impact on the story that many writers do not realize...it just does. In a way, I think this could be made into a "Kill your darlings" discussion...you write a character that you love to write...and you feel that character would use the f*word...and so, you write it...but sometimes a writer has to realize that using the f*word will have an unintended impact on the tone of the story...you want the impact to be localized to a character...but you don't control how a reader will READ the story...and it is difficult to localize the impact of the f*word in a story...it just is....then, you have to make a decision...is it SO important that your character cuss that you risk casting an inaccurate tone on the story? maybe the answer is yes...which could be the definition of "fit"...but maybe it is no...and in that case, even if your character really would say it, you have to kill your darling and cut out the f*word for the betterment of the story.
Okay...what else has been said...
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Don't be fooled. ALL of the Western religions have taboos on sex. The Puritans were fine with married couples and (as most Christian faiths preach) believed that you should be out there going at it because it resulted in babies. But casual sex for pleasure, or sex outside of marriage was a bad thing to them.
As a person who was brought up Catholic here in the USA, it took me a long time for me to be able to step back and see that, to a very large portion of the world, (ie, to cultures other than American or European Judo-Christian) sex is not a big deal and something that should be celebrated and shared first, not bottled up and repressed.
hehe...I can't help it...I gotta' weigh in on this...as a "Judeo-Christian" (actually...most of my experience is Southern Baptist *shiver*...) and a person who has been married twice, had sex in and out of marriage, had all kinds of opinions about sex over the years, etc. etc. ....and NOW I'm studying to be a Christian Marriage and Family Therapy Counselor...let me say this:
The Christian belief does not have a "taboo" about sex...quite the opposite...but, unfortunately, it is usually mistaken as a "taboo" (now, this does not account for those Christians who get it wrong...I'm talking about the actual belief...). In fact, Christians LOVE sex...so much so that it is seen as a holy act between two people...an opportunity to share and come together "as one"...a gift from God to be enjoyed to the fullest by His people. AS A RESULT...they want to treat sex as a somewhat holy experience...meaning, they believe sex is intended to be shared in a certain way...if it is not shared in the way they believe to be holy, then they see it as a perversion of a holy act.
They don't believe sex is taboo or bad...they believe sex is holy...and should be treated as such...protected...their actions/words/etc. are, more often than not, born out of a desire to protect the holy nature of sexuality.
Of course...many, many Christians have gotten it wrong over the years...but many, many cultures have gotten a LOT of things wrong over the years...but their mistakes rarely come up in conversation because that person didn't grow up in that culture and therefore can't blame that culture for oppressing them as a child...but our culture sure can.
Not trying to pick on you jwdenzel...your quote was just the easiest to post and then respond...please don't think I was attacking/disagreeing with you...really.
And now...we are officially WAY off topic...F**K!!!!
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Wow, that could be a centrel part of a story right there. Along with cuss words.
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There is a fascinating article in Wikipedia about 'minced oaths' that examines them in both actual English speaking as well as in a variety of literary and film sources. Saying 'f-bomb' is a form of minced oath in that it attempts to soften the impact of a profanity while still convaying the origianl meaning.
My favorite two minced oaths are 'zounds!', short for 'God's wounds!' and 'gadzooks!', short for 'God's hooks!' (the nails he was crizified with). 150 years ago these would have been mighty strong words, but now sound quaint!
'Bloody' is a sluring of 'by Our Lady', meaning the Virgin Mary.
Two of my favorite Gorram TV shows are mentioned in the article for their minced oaths: Battlestar Galactica (both original and reimagined) and Firefly.
And Mr. Jordan is mentioned for all of you WoT folk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minced_oath
For my own writing I don't specifically avoid foul language. However, I'm very particular as to which characters swear and their choice of profanity. I have a main character that has never sworn. But his girlfriend will swear like a sailor! And I've been experimenting with some of the characters using the un-minced phrases like 'God's wounds.'
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Interesting discussion, even the off-topic bits.
I'm in the middle of a MiltarySF/AdventureSF novel and this swearing business is really causing me a headache. I've served in the military so I can tell you that many/most military folks swear, a lot. At the same time, swear words in a real world military setting carry a very different impact and meaning than the same words in a civilian setting. I want my kids and my mother-in-law to be able to read my books without being offended so I try to leave out the swear words. But when I write dialogue, a soldier who has just decided to disobey orders and risk his life to accomplish the mission does not say "darn" or "shoot".
From what I've read here I think I may have to put a bit more thought into creating new swear words that are grounded in the culture of my world so that those who want to hear "shoot" can and those who want to hear "f#$@" can too.
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Just a suggestion Skar.
I can completely understand your dilemma. It's like I originally posted, you can't hide swear words from something such as a military combat novel. This would be a lie and well...unrealistic. May I pose a suggestion. Why not elude to those words, but not say them. Use a symbol or a gap in your writing to allow your readers to get the idea without the actual word. Regardless, the reader is going to say or think that word in their mind, that is inevitable, but it will show your children and family that you do have a sense of decency and morals that you are trying to cling to.
Maybe do something like this. "Hey Lieutenant, get the ___ over here" or "Son of a #%@%! that was close!"
Just my two cents.