Mormonism & Sanderson's Writing

[Skeptic]

Before anything else, let me say that I regard B. Sanderson as an enormously talented writer. I have read his Mistborn and Elantris novels, and regard them as ranking among the best fantasy novels in recent years.

With that said, I was troubled to learn that he is a devout Mormon. While all religious faiths rely on rather absurd premises, core Mormon doctrines enshrined in their sacred texts are especially pernicious, particularly those that elevate racism to the status of divine judgment of a people's intrinsic worth as human beings.

Consider the book Elantris again, and the description of the curse in it that is the foundation for the novel (i.e., a fair-skinned race turned dark and loathsome by a divine curse, and a city whose very walls were transformed in color from white to black to visibly mark the city's descent from purity into corruption), in light of this:

_________________

2 Nephi 5:21-23:

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

"And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities."

"And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done."

"And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey."

 2 Nephi 30:6:

"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."


3 Nephi 2:15:

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."

The above was the basis for the Mormon church refusing to ordain blacks as ministers until after the year 1978, at which time the leaders of the Mormon church received a new "revelation" that God had apparently changed his mind about blacks, and they weren't spiritually inferior to whites after all (this change of heart was rather convenient for the extremely wealthy Mormon faith, as the IRS had been threatening to revoke its tax-exempt status because of the faith's racist teachings and practices). 

I believe Sanderson's internal struggle with these passages and past practices of his church is revealed in Elantris. I am heartened by Sanderson's portrayal of the character Galladon in Elantris, a heroic character who was also a black man.

A common theme running through Elantris and Warbreaker is men becoming gods. It is not surprising that Sanderson is preoccupied with this, since an oddity of the Mormon faith is that it is not a monotheistic one like Christianity, Judaism or the Muslim faith. Rather, it is a polytheistic / henotheistic one embracing the idea that there are many gods, and that the god that created the Earth was once a man living on a distant world who became a god. Indeed, according to Mormon doctrine the faithful can themselves ascend to godhood and rule their own worlds. I guess to Mormons, Milton's Satan in Paradise Lost presents a false choice by saying, "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."

As far as I am concerned, this isn't many steps removed from the beliefs underlying Scientology. Compare Sanderson's own statement that the Mormon church teaches "... that before we were born, we lived as spirits, and were involved in the production of this world.  We chose to come to this planet...", with the belief of Scientologists that souls ("thetans") have lived on other planets before living on Earth, and that the spiritual community of souls created the universe through collective belief in its existence.

The following article (written by a Christian, something that I am not) presents an interesting analysis of whether the Mormon faith is a polytheistic or henotheistic one:

http://contenderministries.org/mormonism/polytheism.php

This entertaining cartoon explains the key teachings of the Mormon church, although it apparently isn't liked much by Mormons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo

I'm interested in how others feel about how Sanderson's faith has influenced his novels, with examples given from his writing, and also any portions of his novels that reveal a break with Mormon teachings. If I'd been aware of Sanderson's beliefs at the time I'd read his books, I'd have had a keen eye on which characters if any imbibed coffee or smoked tobacco.

(A final word: I am not a religious scholar of any sort, let alone an expert on the Mormon faith. If I've relied on erroneous information about the Mormon faith in writing the above, please explain the nature of the error.)

[title edited to better reflect thread - TJK]

[Shard]

Have you listened to his audio interviews where he discusses this issue of his Faith and how handles it with his writing? He typically tries to not use his Faith, at least not exclusively to others. Like with Sazed in the Mistborn Trilogy, though he even admits it is probably very difficult not to be influenced by ones own Faith in writing.

[Hanami]

With that said, I was troubled to learn that he is a devout Mormon. While all religious faiths rely on rather absurd premises, core Mormon doctrines enshrined in their sacred texts are especially pernicious, particularly those that elevate racism to the status of divine judgment of a people's intrinsic worth as human beings.

Wh- WHAT?

Honestly... I find your message quite offensive. I mean, you are critizising not only mormon, but... all religions? Come on... what the hell is this about? Okay, so you have found similitudes and things Elantris characters may be based... so what? What's the problem with that? Besides, Brandon has already explained (in a rather interesting way, to be precise), how his texts are influenced or not by his personal beliefs. And honestly, I can find it in almost every sacred text... get the Bible, for example. People who suffered of leprosy were thought to have sinned... and leprosy itself is quite similar to the Shaod. I mean, religious texts aren't a compendium of a few pages, or anything like that, so you can get almost everything that may be convenient to you, especially if you remove the context.

And, even if it was true, what does it matter to you? You don't believe in any religion? Then took it as it is, a fantasy book, with fantastic things that happen there. My... What troubles you about Brandon being mormon? Are you trying to save his soul (difficult, since you've proved to be an atheist) or what?

[Skeptic]

I'm not an atheist, but an agnostic. I realize that I don't have all the big answers. I don't believe things because someone else tells me to believe them. Perhaps some being or beings with god-like powers actually did create the human race, or Earth, or the universe. I think the likelihood of this is quite small, but ultimately, life's short & I'm not going to spend much time worrying about questions that I cannot answer.

But do I find stories about, e.g., men living for days in the bellies of giant fish to be absurd?  Yeah. Call me crazy.

So what's this have to do with Brandon Sanderson? Among other things, he's writing the last book in the Wheel of Time series. Although I thought the quality of Robert Jordan's books declined as the series grew longer in tooth, the first few are dear to my heart and precious to me. And an appropriate conclusion to Robert Jordan's life work is important to me. I don't want to find myself stumbling across artifacts of Mr. Sanderson's Mormon faith when I read the last book in that series, authored by him. I don't know if he can avoid doing so, as his religious faith is clearly deeply rooted and of the unquestioning, "It's in Scripture so it's settled" variety.

Frankly I wish Mr. Sanderson had kept his personal beliefs regarding religion private, as now I may see things that aren't even there when I read his next book.

[Zimra]

Skeptic, this is basically one of the biggest sort of problems you can run into when following an author/actor/whoever. When you find out about too much about them and their personal life, sometimes you can't stop your brain automatically nagging at you about it every time you see more of their work.

If you take for example the other day when I was reading some movie reviews from a reviewer I like, he mentions halfway through in his own words that he's a 'Big fat virgin'. This could potentially change the way I read his articles, and think about them. But then common sense kicked in. Why do I like his articles? Because of the way that he writes them. His life so far has built him into the person he is, and that's all developed his writing style, so I don't care what he does in his personal time.

Same goes with Brandon. I didn't know he was a Mormon until you brought it up, even though I've been following him and reading all I can. Or maybe I did read that he was a Mormon but just frankly didn't care enough about it to take it into account.

In another author example. Raymond E. Feist is a big D&D fan, and at times it is very obvious that this is an influence on his work. I have no problems with D&D, I quite it and all the video games based on it. This influence obviously adds to his writing style, and he's non the worse for it.

But what I'm trying to say is everyones writing style or anything else they do is built on the experiences of everything they've done and seen in their life. Brandon's only influence isn't just Mormonism. I might be disturbed if all of the swordfights in his books were based on serial-killer murders he undertakes on dark stormy nights, but I doubt that's happend.

And I'd also like to point out:

Frankly I wish Mr. Sanderson had kept his personal beliefs regarding religion private, as now I may see things that aren't even there when I read his next book.

I just had a browse through all of his books that I own, and I can't find any reference to his beliefs. I feel like pointing out:  It's your own fault!

Regardless, you're entitled to your own opinion and I respect if you find the Mormonism aspect off-putting. Or just any religious influence in anything you read. But, honestly, there's probably religious influence/references in almost everything, especially in the fantasy genre, it's just really a question of whether you have the background knowledge to recognise  it for what it is, or just plain coincidence.

[Skeptic]

Of course there is no direct reference to the Mormon faith in Sanderson's mainstream fantasy novels. As all of them are set in fictitious worlds, any blatant direct reference would rather spoil the atmosphere.

I do believe understanding an author's background is relevant to a clearer understanding of their works. This is standard practice for any academic in the field of literature. Sometimes, though, we may not like what we find.

I do like what Sanderson said in his blog entitled "Pullman and Censorship":

 http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/52/EUOLogy-On-Pullman-and-Censorship

It responds at least tangentially to the concerns stated in my prior posts in this thread, although I prefer to find my fiction unencumbered by an author's world view that is not just different, but largely antithetical to my own.

[Zimra]

Sometimes, though, we may not like what we find.

Yep, it all comes down to what we like or don't like. Our personal opinions are what make us up as a person, so we're all welcome to them

I hope you enjoy Brandon's future works, and A Memory of Light as well. Since you've said how dear the first few books are to your heart, I would hate to see you, or anyone else disappointed.

[Skeptic]

Let me frame this another way, and put the shoe on the other foot, so to speak.

There's a Muslim sci-fi book out there entitled Mosque Among the Stars. 

http://ahmedakhan.livejournal.com/18904.html

Looks interesting; beautiful cover. I'd pick it up and give it a look-see if I encountered it in a bookstore. Although I have no pressing desire to learn anything more about the Mormon faith, I think it is urgent we better understand the Muslim faith. In a way, I'd be more comfortable with the religious underpinnings of this book than Elantris or Warbreaker since there'd be no attempt to disguise them.

But what if, prior to reading the book, you learned that the editors / authors Muhammad Aurangzeb Ahmed & Ahmed Khan supported the 9/11 attacks as the righteous judgment of Allah delivered upon the wicked and/or regarded Osama bin Ladin as a hero? Would you be available to divorce yourself from this knowledge as you read the book, even if nothing of the sort was directly stated in the book?

(This is a purely hypothetical example. I expect these two gentlemen, both Muslims, hold no such beliefs regarding 9/11.)

[Loud_G]

Not sure why you are so worried. Even Robert Jordan was quite devout in his own faith and Christian parallels can be seen in his book already.

When you first started your post I thought you were one of those ultra fundamentalist anti-mormon evangelist types. Your attitudes and views are very similar.

But then I find out that you are agnostic.... So I wonder what all the fuss is about.

You seem to have a lot of beef against mormonism, which you don't even seem to know much about, and which knowledge seems iffy at best. Yet now you compare one of the most charitable and cleanliving religions to the terrorists that perpetrated 9/11. wow...

As an agnostic does it matter whether a church believes that people can become gods or whether a church believes that people just go play harps forever?

[Alatar]

Skeptic, after the blog post you linked, it is obvious you are not really a flamer. That said, in this forum there are some LDS followers (BS among them) who might feel you are for attacking their Faith.
I am, like you, someone who thinks there's something out there but that there is no stablished religion which has the right about it. I don't care if that's called agnostic, atheist or any other way.
And what I believe is that people are much more than their beliefs, and I think BS has demonstrated with the way he talks and writes, that he is no zealot.
Do his beliefs show in his work? Sure. As RJ ones and as any other writer. Not only his beliefs, but his experience, the fact that he is married (oh, yes, it shows  ) and many other things.
I don't think you or anyone should fear Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker or any other of BS books to be a covert attemp to brainwash, and I think he is very careful not to force his ideas into other people. I think he is a bit like Sazed (from Mistborn series) in that.
But, of course, I may be wrong, there are people here who know him much better than I (I only know him through his books).
Anyway, though I think you didn't try to, it seems you've been somewhat impolite when you did'nt consider what your comments would make LDS followers feel. You just understand that, it would make all us happier 

_{Edit  by Nessa: Changed LSD to LDS. This is a reference to Latter-day Saint, a member name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.}

[Sigyn]

Okay, I am a devout Mormon. That said, I don't think Skeptic is trying to be offensive---he's just asking questions about religion and writing that I think are viable, though they can be easily misconstrued. Those of you who are taking offense really need to calm down and try to see where he's coming from.

Skeptic, I don't think you need to worry about Brandon putting a lot of Mormon idea into Wheel of Time.  Everything he writes is looked over by Robert Jordan's wife and his two assistants. I'm sure they will make sure that everything stays as closely to how Robert Jordan would have written things as possible. Also, Brandon is a great fan of Wheel of Time and wants to do everything he can to make this a book that follows in Robert Jordan's footsteps.  He's working really hard on this, I promise.  You can try reading some of the things on his blog about all of this.

As for religion affecting a person's writing, I think everything in a person's background is going to affect their writing because it affects their world view. This isn't limited to religion.  Skeptic, your lack of religion would affect your writing just as much as Brandon's religion affects his.  This isn't a bad thing. It allows us to see and explore other world views which will hopefully enlarge our understanding of others.  This isn't something to be worried about: it is something to be grateful for. I think the world would be rather boring if we all believed exactly the same things.  Which may be something else to think about.  Devout Mormons can believe a whole spectrum of different things.  There was another thread, a few months (years?) back, that discussed some Mormon doctrine. You can try to find it if you want to see what we say we believe.

[Shaggy]

Not sure why you are so worried. Even Robert Jordan was quite devout in his own faith and Christian parallels can be seen in his book already.

Skeptic, I hear what you are saying, and actually agree with much of it. I also respect you for having the courage to speak your mind while knowing that there are many members of the Mormon religion on this forum and that you may be a common source of anger in people's minds. However, in response to the quote from Loud_G (above) and from what you have said, I must say that I think if BS was of a different religious mind than Mormonism, and if the religious parallels in his book were of a different religion than Mormonism, then you would have very different feelings. Much of what you say seems to be directed at Mormonism, and if you compare Mormonism to many other religions, you will find many of the same issues you have pointed out apparent in then as well.[Yeah, I know, that sentence was horribly written but I don't know how else to say it.]

Skeptic, I also hope that Brandon Sanderson's belief in Mormonism does not become too apparent in AMoL; as was already mentioned, I do not think too much will make it past Harriet or her assistants, and if it does, then I will not let my mind dwell on it too long.

However, I really do think your post is aimed as a slight attack on Mormonism. For example:

I was troubled to learn that he is a devout Mormon

. You were troubled to here that Brandon Sanderson was a Mormon, not that his beliefs were apparent and had roles in his stories. I see nothing wrong in discussing a religion, or debating points about it, but I think you should not try to disguise it as something else.

[Miyabi]

You are the ultimate example of hypocrisy.  You can't honestly expect to be taken seriously when you say you are heartened to hear that a heroic character is black, then say that you are troubled that Brandon is Mormon.  You are making a double standard of yourself.  Basically what you said reads, "We should not be racist, but hating Mormons is OK."  That is absurd and you should really think about things before you say them.

[Shaggy]

I agree with miyabi. As I said previously, you are using Brandon's belief in Mormonism (and how he *sometimes* let's it show (?) in his work) as an excuse to attack the religion. That said, the title of this post is a complete misnomer.

[Zimra]

But what if, prior to reading the book, you learned that the editors / authors Muhammad Aurangzeb Ahmed & Ahmed Khan supported the 9/11 attacks as the righteous judgment of Allah delivered upon the wicked and/or regarded Osama bin Ladin as a hero? Would you be available to divorce yourself from this knowledge as you read the book, even if nothing of the sort was directly stated in the book?

Ignoring the rest of this debate for now, sort of, this is actually quite an intriguing question. Honestly, I've always taken books/films/games and so on at face value. I don't think the background or activities of an author should have any bearing on me personally while I read the stories they've told. The 9/11 question is a bit tricky, since I'm Scottish and it doesn't hold the same sway over me as it would an American, although I still do think it was a terrible atrocity.

You could mess around this question in a million ways though. Like what if the 9/11 attacks had also killed my brother, and the guys who wrote the book were in total support? Then I'd probably burn it.

But really, you could throw it away the other way I suppose. Would you read a book by an American who was in favor of the Iraq war, that's caused so much civilian collateral damage and killed so many people? It's easy to make things sound bad if you feel like it.

Anywho, like I said earlier, it's a matter of opinion. If you do believe about getting an understanding about an authors background to help understand their books, or whatever it is exactly you like doing, then feel free.

For fun's sake, how would you answer the question you asked, about the book and 9/11?