Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Ari54 on September 01, 2010, 06:07:37 AM
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I think it's relatively safe to say that the Almighty in Way of Kings was a shard. Whether this puts him in a similar situation to Preservation in Hero of Ages isn't clear though, as for instance his power may already have been claimed.
What I'm wondering is... do we think that he and Odium are the only shards in play? Does his power have anything to do with Dalinar's visions, or is he just the counterpart of Odium? (presumably that would make him "Philius" or something...)
Obviously there's a bunch of other questions, but some of them are likely to be answered in future books. (such as what, if anything, his plans were with the Knights Radiant and the Heralds, who together were presumably his answer to the Voidbringers)
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I believe that you're correct.
The Almighty was definitely a shard, especially if he was killed by Odium, a confirmed shard. Why else would The Almighty hold such power (that of a god) and if Odium thought of him as a big enough threat or opposing him too much, it's safe to say that he was a shard.
My question is his relationship with the Heralds and the Radiants. As well as the truth behind the mythology of being cast out of the Tranquiline Halls.
(The rest of the cosmere info in the Part 2 epigraphs is also vastly intruiging.)
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Are the part two epigraphs written by Hoid? I know everyone has a tendency to think that Hoid is behind every wall or mysterious incident, but it kind of makes sense. The epigraphs are kind of sarcastic, and that fits in with his personality. Also, Hoid is being searched for in the interlude about Clear Lake. Could those be the friends from the 17th Shard?
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Are the part two epigraphs written by Hoid? I know everyone has a tendency to think that Hoid is behind every wall or mysterious incident, but it kind of makes sense. The epigraphs are kind of sarcastic, and that fits in with his personality. Also, Hoid is being searched for in the interlude about Clear Lake. Could those be the friends from the 17th Shard?
See, that's what I suspect myself.
The way he speaks so casually about the other shards (and their mortal personalities and names) make me believe it's someone involved. The voice of them makes me think Hoid as well and yeah, the bit about being pursued by some "17th Shards" points to it as well.
I'm just glad that Hoid plays a bigger role and have some viewpoints of his own... Shows some interesting insight into his character and his motives.
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I should really go through and collect the epigraphs together sometime, because I suspect it's much easier to understand them without the chapters between them. :)
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I should really go through and collect the epigraphs together sometime, because I suspect it's much easier to understand them without the chapters between them. :)
10 steps ahead of you, I compiled them for discussion the minute I finished the ARC.
I'll probably be posting them over at Adonalsium.net sometime today, when most people have gotten that far (one thing you can say about Sanderson fans, is that we read fast.)
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So going through what Zmann sent me, I have some immediate observations:
1) It seems likely that Rayse is Odium from the narrator's description of him.
2) There is mention of Bavadin, too, who may be in some sort of co-operation with Odium as he is included in the narrator's grudge. So there might be as many as two shards (including one of the "most frightening and terrible of all the Shards") working for the "bad guys" on Roshar. Eep.
3) The almighty is probably not Aona, who would seem a natural fit for holding the shard powering Elantris, but he could potentially be Skai.
4) The narrator seems to be talking TO Hoid, who could be properly addressed as "Roamer", unless we suddenly switched viewpoints. That Hoid is meddling on Roshar so obviously seems to indicate he took the missive seriously and is actually helping.
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See I'm not so sure about Rayse = Odium
Simply because both Rayse and Odium seem like mortal names.
I have wanted to ask Brandon (and will hopefully do soon) if all the Shards have similar power names.
Think about the ones we know:
Preservation, Ruin, Endowment, Cultivation... I think they may all follow a similar pattern.
I've made an incomplete table for this exact thing, trying to organize it all.
http://imgur.com/UUCj5.png
What do you think?
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I had the same thought of "Odium sounds more like a name", then I looked it up to see if it's a word. It is. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/odium
Hate, disgust. No wonder this guy is so messed up and trying to end the world. :P
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I had the same thought of "Odium sounds more like a name", then I looked it up to see if it's a word. It is. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/odium
Hate, disgust. No wonder this guy is so messed up and trying to end the world. :P
Interesting... I was planning on asking Brandon about such things, but I may need to revise my table now that I know Odium is an emotion rather than a name.
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I'm not yet convinced that the epigraphs are either written by or addressed to Hoid. Sure, they use a bit of dry wit, but that's not exactly exclusive to him.
It's possible, of course, but I wouldn't really bank on it until we know a lot more about him.
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I considered it was Hoid adressing Sazed or the other way around, but I can't be sure.
I know Sazed would scowl at violence no matter what the cause, but he may also feel that Rayse/Bavadin/Odium have stepped over the line.
But it's a silly theory, no matter which way it goes.
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I considered it was Hoid adressing Sazed or the other way around, but I can't be sure.
I know Sazed would scowl at violence no matter what the cause, but he may also feel that Rayse/Bavadin/Odium have stepped over the line.
But it's a silly theory, no matter which way it goes.
Pretty sure it's not Sazed. The addressee is called "you old reptile," which is on odd form of address. And the epigraphs (or whatever) seem to treat the recipient as somebody who is familiar with all the personalities involved. Sazed, for instance, never knew Ati as a person.
Also---my guess is that there are going to be at least four shards involved---the chapter 11 epigraph states "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the broken one reigns." Three of sixteen very, very likely refers to three shards, and the broken one? Odium seems like a good start although this could be a red herring, especially with what Kalidan heard when he rode the storm.
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See I'm not so sure about Rayse = Odium
Simply because both Rayse and Odium seem like mortal names.
I have wanted to ask Brandon (and will hopefully do soon) if all the Shards have similar power names.
Think about the ones we know:
Preservation, Ruin, Endowment, Cultivation... I think they may all follow a similar pattern.
I've made an incomplete table for this exact thing, trying to organize it all.
http://imgur.com/UUCj5.png
What do you think?
Where do we know that Rayse was on Sel from? As far as I remember that name is completely new.
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It says that Rayse visited Sel in the epigraph for chapter 21 of WoK.
One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say.
I'm of the opinion that the "aftermath" that is referred to might be either the Reod or the creation of the Dakhor magics.
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Oh, that he visited, right. Well, that supports my guess that Aona is the Shardholder from Elantris, and that the Elantrians could perhaps be splinters.
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So what shards are we sure are active on Roshar? We've got the Almighty, Odium, and I believe it's been said Cultivation. So three so far. I'm sticking with my theory of five, though.
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I might have missed something, but I didn't get the impression that Cultivation was definitely on Roshar at any point. Since the shards know each other, from what I understand, then it's also possible that the Almighty was just mentioning someone on another planet who was better at prophecy than him.
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I thought the part two epigraphs were hoid addressing the almighty. I just thought it was hoid from the second paragraph, I don't know why, though his knowledge of other worlds implies it is him, or at least another shard. He calls the one he is addressing old several times, which leads me to believe he is an original shard holder.
What he says implies that Aona and Skai were the two shards on Sel, and both are dead, due to the Raod, caused by Rayse/Odium. I think the "splinters" of them (or of Aona at least) are the Seons. True, they were around before the raod, but perhaps they acted for Aona as the mists did for Preservation, and now they are just all on they're own... I don't know if that works, but I think the Seons are involved with the shards somehow...
And as the Almighty is dead, we can't really call him an active shard anymore.
Also, I think Hoid's appearance in this book confirms he hops through worlds without a shard. None of the other shards we have seen ever appear as a solid person until they are dead (true we've only seen two FOR SURE, but I believe it to be true).
New thought: What if the shardblades and shardplates are the splinters of the almighty's power?
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In the interview 17th Shard did with Brandon (which is going to be up soon, I swear) I directly asked him if Cultivation was a Shard on Roshar. It is.
Also, in a different time, he told us there are three Shards on Roshar. I'm not sure I'm supposed to reveal that, but come on. It's pretty obvious from the "3 of 16" thing that there are sixteen Shards total, and three on Roshar.
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I thought the part two epigraphs were hoid addressing the almighty. I just thought it was hoid from the second paragraph, I don't know why, though his knowledge of other worlds implies it is him, or at least another shard. He calls the one he is addressing old several times, which leads me to believe he is an original shard holder.
What he says implies that Aona and Skai were the two shards on Sel, and both are dead, due to the Raod, caused by Rayse/Odium. I think the "splinters" of them (or of Aona at least) are the Seons. True, they were around before the raod, but perhaps they acted for Aona as the mists did for Preservation, and now they are just all on they're own... I don't know if that works, but I think the Seons are involved with the shards somehow...
And as the Almighty is dead, we can't really call him an active shard anymore.
Also, I think Hoid's appearance in this book confirms he hops through worlds without a shard. None of the other shards we have seen ever appear as a solid person until they are dead (true we've only seen two FOR SURE, but I believe it to be true).
New thought: What if the shardblades and shardplates are the splinters of the almighty's power?
I doubt we've seen the person that was being addressed in that letter. The connection to the 17th shard (and the search for Hoid) makes that very unlikely. And we know that there are more worlds out there than we have seen; we shouldn't assume that all the events being referenced refer to known worlds. Just some. Thus I would hesitate to identify any of the shard or shards involved with Sel.
In the interview 17th Shard did with Brandon (which is going to be up soon, I swear) I directly asked him if Cultivation was a Shard on Roshar. It is.
Also, in a different time, he told us there are three Shards on Roshar. I'm not sure I'm supposed to reveal that, but come on. It's pretty obvious from the "3 of 16" thing that there are sixteen Shards total, and three on Roshar.
Yeah, that reference seemed pretty obvious (also, woot for there being 16 shards). Nice little tidbit about cultivation, though. I wonder what magic she (?) was involved with.
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Where does it say there are 16 shards?
Aona seems like a good fit for Sel. It seems like a good assumption to make.
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I can't remember... how did we find out that the name for the Elantris world is Sel? And when did we find out about the shard called Cultivation?
Also, if there are only 16 shards, then what's up with the people from the 17th shard?
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Sel is mentioned in annotation, as well as interviews.
Chapter eleven's epigraph states:
"Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns."
When you think about there being three Shards on Roshar, this essentially confirms the matter.
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Sel is named in a Q&A Brandon did with, what was it, Barnes and Noble? It was online on their forum or something. He also named the other planets at the same time. Scadrial for Mistborn, Nalthis for Warbreaker and Roshar for Stormlight Archive.
I'm assuming that the 17th Shard is an organization of people who are aware of the existence of Shards and are capable of interacting with them somehow.
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Well, they study Realmatic theory and can apparently planet hop like Hoid.
/me only knows this because his fansite is called 17th Shard...
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Where does it say there are 16 shards?
Aona seems like a good fit for Sel. It seems like a good assumption to make.
To answer this question will take sifting carefully through WoK. So it's going to be a bit, and frankly will probably end up being done properly by somebody else, but since I made the claim, I thought I'd put out a basic defense of the idea.
Firstly, there are 16 Allomantic metals. 16 was Preservations signal to humanity, and it was chosen because Ruin couldn't block it---it was too fundamental too the way the universe works. Sazed claims that there are implications of the number much deeper than he had fathomed even with his expanded mind.
With 16, everything comes in pairs of pairs of pairs of pairs. The symmetry is deep and very beautiful. Everything has its opposite, every pair has its opposite, etc.
Three of sixteen ruled---that's a pretty strong hint there. The only things that we have seen in the Cosmere capable of creating worlds have been shards. Three shards creating the world seems about right for the number of magic systems we are expecting to see, especially if Odium has had a hand in the world, and perhaps created a few more. (I suspect he has, and that we are going to see magic that makes Hemalurgy seem as innocent as collecting stamps.) And if Brandon said that three shards created Roshar---then there are almost certainly sixteen shards total. (Interestingly, the Almighty claimed to have created humanity. Perhaps the other two created other parts.)
The anonymous letter in the bumps in Part 2 refers to the "17th Shard," but by its very name it suggests that it isn't truly a Shard, but something else involved in the mythos that interacts with the 16 true shards.
In short, it would take a lot of counter-evidence to convince me that there are not 16 shards. It was already the most likely number anyway.
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I was actually looking for a quote from the book, which Chaos provided, thank you.
Interesting points, happyman. But perhaps Ruin didn't think to block it until it was too late because Preservation's use of it was so subtle.
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Is there any chance that "the almighty" isn't just a shard, but Adonalsium?
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Not really, Odium is a Shard, which wouldn't exist before Adonalsium shattered. Hoid wasn't planethopping before then, either.
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Hoid wasn't planethopping before then, either.
Citation needed? I probably agree with your assessment, but still, we don't know or have any evidence to support such a statement.
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I guess I don't have citation, it was just something I assumed. We know that he was there when Adonalsium shattered, right?
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I was actually looking for a quote from the book, which Chaos provided, thank you.
Interesting points, happyman. But perhaps Ruin didn't think to block it until it was too late because Preservation's use of it was so subtle.
Maybe. But that doesn't remove Sazed's comments that the number 16 goes much deeper than just the fight between Ruin and Preservation.
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When I was reading I got the impression that there were three shards on the planet, The Almighty, Cultivation and the third - perhaps named Desolation and also goes by Odium (or Odium is associated with the shard somehow.) As much as "Desolation" was thrown around .. and the way it fits with the naming convention of shards, it seemed to make sense.
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Odium is the name of the Shard. (It's just a much more obscure word than Cultivation, Ruin, or Endowment, etc.)
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I'm not as familiar with the cosmere stuff as the rest of you, but just from this alone...
Child of Tanavast. Child of Honor. Child of one long since departed. The sudden voice shook Kaladin; he floundered in the air.
The Oathpact was shattered.
Could Tanavast be the name of the Almighty? Or at least one of the shards/shardholder dudes? Or is Tanavast something in-world?
I mean, "child of one long since departed." We know the Almighty is (likely) dead and that he made humans on Roshar, and we don't know for how long he has been departed... but considering the most recent vision we get to see from Dalinar is the day of Recreance, that would certainly be a long time ago.
So then, "Child of Tanavast" and "Child of one long since departed" could be the same? And could the Almighty be "Honor"?
Or maybe Tanavast held the shard named Honor, and that's where Kaladin's magic (and maybe the Nahel bond) comes from?
I feel like there's something big in those lines, I'm just not sure if I'm looking in the right direction.
Edit -- More likely, perhaps Tanavast is one of the Heralds? The Herald of Honor? That might make more sense, considering the talk of the Oathpact.
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Herald of honor, perhaps.
Or maybe the leader of one of the orders of the Radiants?
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The Radiants were said to be founded by the heralds, perhaps Tanavast is the herald who founded the windrunners?
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well talanels titles are
Talenel'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty
and stone and sinew are two different essences, so maybe each herald has two properties, and can double as the leader of either order of the radiants just in case one of the others dies or something
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Or each order of Radiants covered two essences, and used different styles relating to that.
For instance, I'd assume Stonesinew entails making yourself tougher somehow.
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This idea of Stone+Sinew plays pretty well into the theories flying around earlier about the relationship charts on the inside covers. Since they show a circle of one type (either large or small) always connected to exactly 2 of the opposite type (if small, connected to 2 large. if large, connected to 2 small). In this way, each order can use 2 types of magic, and there are exactly 2 orders capable of using any given type of magic.