Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Reading Excuses => Topic started by: Frog on July 20, 2009, 10:11:29 PM
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Place all comments here and please feel free to be picky. I can take it. :P
Thank you!
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But I don't like elves! ;D I'm kidding... don't hurt me. Haha.
I liked this prologue. I'm always a fan of gods, and having a pantheon (or "family", in this case) which essentially leaves a goddess abandoned is really cool. It was a great way to frame the scene, where it could have been a dull prologue which explained the creation of the world, instead we get character development. And character development is always good!
I'd steer away from anything that feels remotely "telly", especially this early on in a novel. Like this:
“Yes,” Pathora said at once. They had decided that after Sylveranth was formed, that they would leave a mortal council to maintain it. Members of this council, called Bearers, served as a spokesperson for their God or Goddess and were given access to their individual power. The others had selected several Bearers, choosing successors as necessary through the mortal generations
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea behind this, but I feel the scene wouldn't lose a heck of a lot by just cutting this part and giving it to readers later. We don't need to know how the Bearers came to be, we just need to know that Pathora hasn't appointed one, which is alluded to in the dialogue. The scene would work fine without that.
So I think that in a revision, as long as you take a really hard look at what information is introduced, sentence-by-sentence, analyze if the scene requires this information, then that would strengthen up the Prologue immensely. If Pathora is a main viewpoint character, quite a lot of stuff can be revealed later. You definitely don't want to infodump so soon in the story :P
I do really like the ideas you present, and the characters you developed. The line about Vergos being all about law and order made me laugh. Good stuff! Gods are very fun to write and read.
My only question is... what does "DR" stand for? Haha.
I look forward to the next submission!
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But I don't like elves! ;D I'm kidding... don't hurt me. Haha.
Too bad. They're staying. Mu ha ha ha!
No really, they aren't huge in this particular book, but they will show up a time or two just because they are awesome like that. :P
Yeah, you're right about it being telly. My other writing group (yes, I've been seeing other people :P) doesn't have any big fantasy readers/writers in it, so they always want to push me more towards the infodump. Seriously, they get really mad whenever I drop a word without instantly explaining it (even ones like shade that I think EVERYONE should know) and I think I may have been overcompensating for them. If it is a problem for you guys then I'll keep working on it... especially in the part you mentioned!
Pathora and the Pantheon are all very important to the plot, but this is the only time any of them will be a viewpoint character. That's why I put it as a prologue. Do you think that it's misleading?
My only question is... what does "DR" stand for? Haha.
Doctor of course. :P
No, actually I haven't found a title I really liked for this piece yet, so I am very tentatively calling it The Demon's Rise. But if anyone has any suggestions as we go....
Thanks!
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No, it's not misleading at all. It's just the writing group problem--all I have of the story is the Prologue, not the entire vision of the novel. It's perfectly fine.
My other writing group (yes, I've been seeing other people :P)
I knew you never loved us... :'(
:P
My only question is... what does "DR" stand for? Haha.
Doctor of course. :P
No, actually I haven't found a title I really liked for this piece yet, so I am very tentatively calling it The Demon's Rise. But if anyone has any suggestions as we go....
Thanks!
I do like The Demon's Rise, but I'll keep an eye out for potential titles, for sure!
One idea: "Dr Pepper". Lol.
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You've been seeing other people? :o
I agree with Chaos; you don't need to explain everything right away. We can trust that anything we need to know will come later. And I don't think that not having the gods as a viewpoint character again will be a problem. That's what prologues are for. ;) Well, partly.
I like what you've done with this prologue--it looks like it's going to be another one of those tired "the gods explain the creation of the world" sort of thing, and instead we get actual people and character development. Nice twist there.
Um, I hesitate to say this, because I'm not sure why I found this, and I'm not even sure it's something you're doing. It could just be me. So keep that in mind when I say that for some reason, I had a devil of a time getting engaged with this at first; I had to give it two or three tries before I could get past the first page.
So, take that for what it's worth. (If it's worth anything, that is.)
You know... You're probably wise to target this at a younger audience. Seems you're less likely to get dissidents complaining about how they don't like elves that way. ;)
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Very nice prologue!
I didn't really have any major problems with anything, other than that I would like to know more definitely what the specialities are. It's all very well to state (once) that Pathora is the Goddess of Mercy, her brother is the God of Valor, and his partner the Queen of the Fairies, but what are the others? You mention them and that they have followers and temples, but not what they stand for. Even if you're going to introduce these concepts later on in the real story, there's not harm in putting it in the prologue, too. It's just giving the reader a little more information they can use later on to think they're smarter than the characters. ;)
I really liked the ending sentence. I wonder if she'll get it/him. 8)
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My other writing group (yes, I've been seeing other people :P)
I knew you never loved us... :'(
:P
It's not you, it's me. I only show it to them so I can make it good enough for you to see it. Or something... :P
My only question is... what does "DR" stand for? Haha.
Doctor of course. :P
No, actually I haven't found a title I really liked for this piece yet, so I am very tentatively calling it The Demon's Rise. But if anyone has any suggestions as we go....
I do like The Demon's Rise, but I'll keep an eye out for potential titles, for sure!
One idea: "Dr Pepper". Lol.
Umm... maybe. If it wasn't for that whole copyright issue, definitely. :P
DR probably isn't too terrible, but I'm afraid that it would, again, be misleading. It's a major plot point, but it may get people thinking the book is darker than it actually is with all its fairytale/epic fantasy nonsense. Really, I think I may just be too early in the writing process for me to know for sure.
I like what you've done with this prologue--it looks like it's going to be another one of those tired "the gods explain the creation of the world" sort of thing, and instead we get actual people and character development. Nice twist there.
Do you think that may be the reason you had trouble getting into it? I was trying to be creative with it, and maybe condensing some more of the telliness in the beginning will help, but I don't want to scare away ALL the potential readers. Just most of them with my strange elf fetishes. :P
Please tell me if you can think of anything specific!
You know... You're probably wise to target this at a younger audience. Seems you're less likely to get dissidents complaining about how they don't like elves that way. ;)
Yeah, that's the main reason I go to my 'other' writing group. Most of them write for middle grade or YA and I'm hoping that by balancing out all of your wonderful advice, I can fit it in with the more 'transition to fantasy' type books. We'll see. I may just end up annoying you both. :P
I didn't really have any major problems with anything, other than that I would like to know more definitely what the specialities are. It's all very well to state (once) that Pathora is the Goddess of Mercy, her brother is the God of Valor, and his partner the Queen of the Fairies, but what are the others? You mention them and that they have followers and temples, but not what they stand for. Even if you're going to introduce these concepts later on in the real story, there's not harm in putting it in the prologue, too. It's just giving the reader a little more information they can use later on to think they're smarter than the characters. ;)
Because of the other comments, I hesitate to add more detail at this point, but I do have a chart in my notes that categorizes all of them that I may want to put with the prologue; like some books have maps or whatever. Do you guys want to see it with the next submit? Either way, I plan on going over it again in more detail at least once more in the first few chapters as it becomes important.
I love that you seem to be interest though. And this:
I really liked the ending sentence. I wonder if she'll get it/him. 8)
because that is what I main point of this all right now.
Yea!Thank you guys so much! :D
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Do you think that may be the reason you had trouble getting into it? I was trying to be creative with it, and maybe condensing some more of the telliness in the beginning will help, but I don't want to scare away ALL the potential readers.
I'm not sure it is, because within a couple of paragraphs it was fairly obvious you were doing something different. :/ So, I dunno. Sorry, I know that's not terribly helpful... I've been trying to put my finger on it all day and I can't. If nothing else, I promise the moment I figure it out I'll come back and tell you.
"It's not you, it's me..." :P
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I liked the prologue as well, and have to agree with Silk, at first I was thinking: Oh no. Another story where the gods create the world, then one of them turns on them and becomes the bad guy. Brandon gave a whole CLASS on this.
But you surprised me, and the character development was great. Having said that, to be honest, I think a lot of people are going to have that initial reaction, and that might not be a good thing.
My suggestion would be, remove all references to them being gods! Show, don't tell! Just have them floating above their creation, popping in magically, etc. Don't have Pathora think of her brother as the God of Valor, just Consilic. We can figure out that he's the god of valor later, for now, just have him be her brother (or someone close, it might seem REALLY weird to hear her complain how her brother hooked up with the fairy princess instead of her in the second paragraph).
Also, I think a lot of the infodumps in this prologue can be replaced with dialog instead. You could just start with something like: "Sister, you haven't yet chosen a single Bearer. Is something wrong?"
Then let the info come out naturally from there.
All in all, great stuff so far. Interesting idea! (And I'm kind of hoping that the Goddess of Mercy, through a cruel act of fate, turns out to be the bad guy. But that's probably just me ;) )
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If nothing else, I promise the moment I figure it out I'll come back and tell you.
Thank you! :P
Erik: I was expecting that those that went with the Brandon Bible would have some problems with my submissions. Hence the Elven Disclaimer. Don't get me wrong. I like the BS' books that I read just fine and appreciate all his advice and accessibility, but that doesn't mean I always have to agree with all his interests, right? Then we'd be writing the same books. :P
But I do appreciate all the input and will try to work in a few of your suggestions.
(And I'm kind of hoping that the Goddess of Mercy, through a cruel act of fate, turns out to be the bad guy. But that's probably just me ;) )
All I can say to this is "Muha ha ha ha!" followed by "RAFO." 8)
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Erik: I was expecting that those that went with the Brandon Bible would have some problems with my submissions. Hence the Elven Disclaimer. Don't get me wrong. I like the BS' books that I read just fine and appreciate all his advice and accessibility, but that doesn't mean I always have to agree with all his interests, right? Then we'd be writing the same books. :P
But I do appreciate all the input and will try to work in a few of your suggestions.
Just keep in mind, its not Brandon's Bible by any means.
I've gone to a couple conventions where, when the editors, publishers or agents are asked what they are looking for, they basically reply: "Not elves"
If your story features a lot of Tolkien-like elves, I'd say you've just cut your chances of getting published in half. And I don't think that's an exaggeration. It sucks, but it's the truth. Publishers are just sick of them.
Call them Fae, or faeries, and I think you can get away with it. Elegant, pointy eared fighter magic users though? Everyone's just tired of them.
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Thanks again, but I heard all this before. You would have to be completely hiding under a rock not to. And what I am saying is that I just don't care. You can judge my content, twists and give me your honest opinions and I do appreciate it, but I decided that I would rather write what I liked, struggle to publish and keep my day job rather than jump through hops like that. I am a creative, emotional writer and I can't write what I don't love. Trends change all the times and what is hot right now won't necessarily be hot when I'm done writing. So I just don't see the point.
Thank you. :)
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Ok, just wanted to make sure you were informed.
I've only read your prologue, but I guess it gave me the impression that you might not be using elves, but Fae (cause of the fairy queen).
I think a lot of the genres prejudices can be overcome with a few simple name changes personally.
Call them the Alfar and base them off Norse ideas of elves, instead of Tolkien's, etc.
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That's alright. You're just not the first one that made an issue about it with me on here. I can tell you though that I have no intention of purely basing them off of Tolkien or Paolini and my world is so cluttered with different fae and magical creatures that I really don't see it as an issue for this book. Maybe in QO, but not this one.
I have considered changing the name a bit to reflect their differences (mine are kind of a mixture of the Tolkien and the fairytale shoemaker elves) but I don't want to confuse all the kids since like I said, my world is pretty cluttered. The bravest thing I've done is have the more formal speaking people (like the gods) call them Elbans. I haven't heard of an Alfar before though and would be interested in looking them up. I do love that kind of stuff after all. :D
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The Alfar are the what the Norse called the Elves, incidentally, it's my understanding that they are the inspiration for Tolkien's elves.
There is also the Dökkálfar meaning Dark-elves, also called the Svartálfar or black-elves. They are similar to dwarves, living underground, etc.
Ljósálfar means light-elves. Here's a sample of how they are described in Norse myth:
"There are many magnificent dwellings. One is there called Alfheim. There dwell the folk that are called light-elves; but the dark-elves dwell down in the earth, and they are unlike the light-elves in appearance, but much more so in deeds. The light-elves are fairer than the sun to look upon, but the dark-elves are blacker than pitch." – Gylfaginning, 13th century
Just look them up on Wikipedia, you should get tons of info on them. And let me know if you ever have questions, I consider myself an expert on all things Fae. :D
And I understand wanting to write what you want to write. Hell, I'm going to have elves in my story as well, but for me they are just part of the Fae, and mostly out of Scottish and Norse myths. (Although at this point, I have no plans yet to have them even show up). Besides, they are much cooler then Tolkien's elves.
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Just to interject something here. Erik--DR (which I haven't read yet, but I vaguely know what it's about) is a precursor to Frog's trilogy--Queen's (Queen's Opal, Queen's Heir, Queen's Bane) which I HAVE read...well. As much as I can at this point. The elves differ quite a bit from Tolkien. They're still definitely elves, but they're not Tolkienesque.
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I don't think Erik means to criticize. He IS right that a lot of readers, and a lot of publishers, will be turned off by the mere fact that there are elves, and may be so disinterested that they won't continue long enough to find out that there are differences.
That said, even though it probably means a narrower audience, I'm sure there will be people who are interested in what Frog is doing with her work. It's just a matter of finding out who.
And that said, the time to worry about this stuff is not now. It's after you've finish your final draft and are wondering who to pitch it to.
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I don't think Erik means to criticize.
He doesn't? Then what is he doing in our critique group? :P
(Sorry Silk, but I'm afraid you were asking for it)
Really, I'm just fine. I know Erik is trying to help. I just get a little tired of hearing it is all, even if I am kind of asking for it. But obviously it hasn't stopped me from writing yet. The elves (or whatever their secret code name is) will prevail. I don't need fame, I just need to be able to gloat. (Yep, my sig did come from a very similar conversation with a very evil elf hater).
Besides my first few chapters are completely elf free. I may just be on the road to recovery.... Though I seriously doubt it. I did just spend an hour looking up Nordic Alfar. :P
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I did just spend an hour looking up Nordic Alfar. :P
See! I'm not criticizing, I'm being helpful! :D
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I did just spend an hour looking up Nordic Alfar. :P
See! I'm not criticizing, I'm being helpful! :D
Yep! You now have offically become my enablier. ;)
(Do they have a a twelve step program for these type of things? ???)
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Just finished this up a few minutes ago. I really liked it :D
The only thing that I didn't like were the first couple of paragraphs, they all felt a little infodumpy and kind of bland. But once the characters started talking it completely caught my interest and held it until the end.
And for the elves part, I didn't even think about them :P I just thought about the Fairy queen, elves never popped into mymind until I read this topic.
Also, I agree with the comment on the god titles, I would much rather learn about the gods and of what they are from other sources then their family. When I think of my family I don't think 'my aunt, the nurse' I just think my aunt.
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*rolls eyes*
I don't believe he meant that particular piece of information as a criticism.
Better? :P
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Thanks ApocRK. I like it when there is a consensus. Makes things a bit easier in the correction department.
And yes, Silk, that is much better. I can't find anything to make fun of at all and it is deeply disappointing. :P
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If my violin had all its strings, I'd play it for you. :P