Immigration, Deseret News article, Aztlan

[Skar]

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1%2C1249%2C635200794%2C00.html

Discuss.

[FirstMateJack]

/me sighs


This isn't a park. It's a country. You can't just waltz in after a war from forever ago, and reclaim something that is no longer yours.

If you come into a country, you had better abide by it's laws. I don't care if they come here legally. But if there is a law, it should be enforced. No government should make any effort to train, feed or provide health to people who do not abide by it's laws.

[House of Mustard]

I agree that the laws need to be followed, but any immigration reform bills need to include making legal immigration easier.  The current system is a joke.

[FirstMateJack]

that's part of the idea. You don't want it to be easy to become a citizen of a nation. Those who really want to be citizens will do so, those who just want to come over for an easy ride, take much and give little, aren't worth the effort and if they don't want to be citizens, they don't have to be, but unless they follow current laws (getting permits, cards etc...) they should not be a part of the nation.

IMHO the best way to find if someone will be a good citizen and really wants to be a citizen is a person who will pay taxes, obey the laws and be willing to bear arms for the nation, if necessary.

I think it is great people want to be a part of this nation, but I also think that everyone must pull their own, or at least as much weight as possible.

[Fellfrosch]

"Mexicans see the Western U.S. as part of Mexico that was stolen from them 150 years ago," he says. "They believe this with all their heart."

I lived in Mexico for two years, and have many Mexican friends that I talk to almost daily. Never in my life have I heard this ridiculous belief expressed.

[Entsuropi]

I agree that the laws need to be followed, but any immigration reform bills need to include making legal immigration easier.  The current system is a joke.

Very true. Firstmatejack, the problem is that the USA has a random lottery of people allowed in. By comparison Australia has a system where you get points based on skills and knowledges you have. The USA system is silly.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

actually, it's not just hard, it actively makes things more difficult. I know a man in the NSA and he's married to a girl from a different continent. THey have been waiting for a year to get her frickin' GREEN CARD. Not citizenship, her GREEN CARD. This is the wife of a man who works for a place where you need Top Secret clearance just to sneeze, and they move those guys up in the queue.

Seriously, legal immigrants get very angry when they hear about illegal immigrants demanding legalization, at least the ones that aren't from Mexico. I think we should deport anyone who enters illegally. No amnesty. (the problem with this policy is not being able to find them, because they'll hide more from a zero-tolerance policy). But the system seriously sucks.

[FirstMateJack]

Yeah, I totally agree with you about the ability and knowledge Entropy.

I wasn't saying the system is good and works, just there are a lot of things that we need to keep (pledge allegiance, pay taxes, don't be a terrorist, communist, fascist etc...) As opposed to just simply giving them all citizenship and calling it good.

On the other hand, it can't be so difficult and screwed up that if you are someone who truly wants to be a part of hte nation, you can't get it, Such as E's point.

I am not opposed to the idea of deporting all the illegals who aren't waiting for status, and starting over. But I think that is to big an undertaking to perform. ALthough.. I think now is a great time to start preventing any illegals from coming in. And deport the ones that are causing problems.

There would be some major riots and destruction of property. I don't know that right now is a great time to start a war in America. But, definitely no amnesty.

[Spriggan]

I lived in Mexico for two years, and have many Mexican friends that I talk to almost daily. Never in my life have I heard this ridiculous belief expressed.

My friend Steve, who has much the same experiences as Fell with Mexico, has the exact opposite situation.  Heck I've heard that from people he knows before, bring up immigration and he'll always mention that Mexicans need to get over the fact they don't own California and Arizona.

Don't have a link or anything, but there was a survey of Mexicans in California done a few years ago and over 50% of them replied that the US illegally took the Western US away from them.  This was something that I remember popping up on the 24-hour news shows.

[FirstMateJack]

It was in the news a little while ago, I wish I had kept the article for reference, that plays a big part of the California protests that recently happend. They feel that California still kind of belongs to them.

[Skar]

I lived in Mexico for two years, and have many Mexican friends that I talk to almost daily. Never in my life have I heard this ridiculous belief expressed.

http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~mecha/

From the "About MEChA" section:
"Aztlan was the legendary homeland of the Aztecas - the Mexica and other Chichimec tribes - before they migrated southward and settled in Anahuac (the vally of Mexico).  During the height of the Chicano Civil Rights Movement - El Movimiento - Chicano activists adopted Aztlan as a unifying, nationalistic symbol that embodied the experiences of the Chicano people.  It became synonymous with the vast territories of the Southwest, brutally stolen from a Mexican people marginalized and betrayed by the hostile custodians of the Manifest Destiny.  It also initiated the rebirth of our consciousness as indigenous people, whose history and heritage have overcome the forces of European colonialism in order to inspire us today.  Aztlan, then, symbolizes the return to our ancestral roots of origin; it affirms our true identity and defines our destiny as Chicano people."

Look up MEChA and Aztlan on the net and you'll find more of the same.

[Skar]

actually, it's not just hard, it actively makes things more difficult. I know a man in the NSA and he's married to a girl from a different continent. THey have been waiting for a year to get her frickin' GREEN CARD. Not citizenship, her GREEN CARD. This is the wife of a man who works for a place where you need Top Secret clearance just to sneeze, and they move those guys up in the queue.

Wait, I thought you were automatically an American Citizen if you married an American Citizen. ?

[FirstMateJack]

Only if you are born in America, born by an American, or apply.

You can marry an American citizen and still be citizen of another country, (knew a guy in Iowa who was married here and kept his British citizenship, just never applied).

Doesn't matter who you marry.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/faq.htm#q1

Great site for info on this.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

yeah, we took mexico illegally. and the spaniards took it from the aztecs originally. who took it from someone else, who took it from someone else. Give me a break.

Wait, I thought you were automatically an American Citizen if you married an American Citizen. ?

nope. If you're BORN to a US citizen, yes. Married? no. Marriage is a great way to get citizenship, but it's not an automatic thing. ANd the INS is very suspicious of marriages to foreign nationalists. There's a lot of investigation. But that's the thing, they haven't even started investigating.

[Skar]

I attended one of the Pro-Illegal rallies here in Salt Lake.  There was one large banner I thought was interesting.  It had a picture of a stereotypical Amerind on it, pointing out at the crowd and bore the legend: "Who's the illegal immigrant, pilgrim?"  It was interesting because I couldn't believe that it was saying what it said.  Aside from the knee-jerk guilt reaction over the fact that we did, in fact, take this continent away from the Amerinds (only related to the current concern by a long stretch anyway) what was its purpose?  Does the illegal immigrant population from Mexico really want to do to us what we did to the Amerinds?  The only things I can work out is that they're either stupid and didn't realize the obvious implication or they think we're stupid and won't realize the obvious implication...until it's too late anyway... or it was just an out and out threat.   It's disturbing no matter how you cut it.

Fell, what do the Mexicans you often speak with have to say about the whole matter?  Are they legal immigrants or illegal?