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Messages - Phaz

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91
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Finished Reading Elantris the Other Day
« on: May 16, 2008, 06:29:10 PM »
Quote from: apbadd on May 16, 2008, 05:47:43 PM
What is "Hope of Elantris?"

Amazon Link

It is a digital short.  Basically, a small (25 pages) eBook of Elantris. From the description:

Quote
The Hope of Elantris is an attempt to fill in one of the holes in the sequence of events in ELANTRIS. When New Elantris is attacked near the end of the book, all of the primary viewpoint characters are absent, and the reader can only hear of the assault via third-hand references. This short story shows what actually happened from the view of one who was there. It's meant to be read along with the book, a bonus scene, if you will, and will make a nice addition to the novel for anyone who wants to read a little bit more from the world of Opelon.

It's only $0.49 and worth every penny.

Brandon's annotations and extra content for this book is pretty good as well.  I really like the deleted scenes.  They give you a little idea of how the book changed between versions.

As for my favorite character, I really liked reading the Raoden chapters, but I would have to say Hrathen was my favorite.

92
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Vin as HOA?
« on: May 07, 2008, 11:42:17 PM »
I've always been slightly bugged by Keep Venture's location as well. 

In the first book, at the beginning when Kell goes to steal the Atium from there, he leaves Cammon's lair and head's north.

however, Cammon's lair is west of Keep Venture.  (I think those are the directions, either way, if you read that part, things don't line up).

93
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Do Steel Inquistors need to burn metals? *Possible Spoilers*
« on: May 05, 2008, 02:25:25 AM »
Here's another piece:

MB1 p60

Quote
Nothing I've learned about Allomancy has ever provided an explanation for how those creatures keep living

Kell says that when he was first talking with Vin, in reference to the spikes in their eyes.

I think there are 2 significant pieces of information from this.  The first, is that it implies that they do have a power beyond allomancy, which we now know of (Hemalurgy).

The second, is that I think he's implying that they use Allomancy.  Yes, he might not know for sure, but he does seem to know quite a bit about them, and he has seen them fight multiple times.  It's possible he says this because he has seen them burn metals.

94
Brandon Sanderson / Re: MB1 Prologue Epigraph Thingy
« on: May 04, 2008, 01:00:46 AM »
Maybe it has something to do with the "piercings of heroes" (I believe they are called).

Then again, they also say "will hold" which implies something in the future.

95
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Mysterious Reen ?
« on: May 01, 2008, 01:31:06 AM »
I think most people now think that Reen's voice = Ruin's voice, but here is a bit more evidence.

In the first book, every time you have Reen's words, she never 'hears' them.  She always "thinks" them. 

i.e. "Vin thought ....."

Later on, we get the format:

"Reen's voice said, "

Interestingly enough, when you first see the earing in the book, and she first puts it in (when she get's back to the Lair & the Ministry is on to them) she walks out and is beaten by Camon.  During that time, just after she puts the earing in, the text reads:

"In her mind, she thought she heard a voice whispering to her.  Reen's voice." 

From then on, it changes to Reen's voice actually speaking to her, and not just her thinking what he would of said.

IMO that seals the deal.

96
Brandon Sanderson / Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« on: April 30, 2008, 05:06:25 PM »
Quote from: darxbane on April 30, 2008, 04:28:46 PM
Actually, soothing or rioting  your enemy in battle could be a great advantage.  However, I don't think that they soothe, riot, or even seek.  There are obligator mistings that can do that.  Also, on that vein, I have read several posts that suggest Inquisitors could pierce copper clouds.  I don't believe this is true.  After all, if they could, the hideout at Clubs's shop would have been found much earlier on in the story.  From what I remember, only TLR and Vin are able to pierce copper clouds.  Also, please stop the fantasy that Reen's voice is Ruin talking to her.  If that were true, Reen wouldn't have been encouraging her to leave Kelsier's group.  Ruin wanted her to become a Hero, someone who thought of others first, someone who would be willing to give the power away to save the world, according to Its false prophecies.  Reen's "voice" was saying the exact opposite.   Vin's sister had to be the sacrifice, although I am not sure if it was necessary for her to be a seeker.  Don't forget that Vin's mother heard voices, so she was a Hemalurgy recipient of some sort.  I wonder how many Skaa have some sort of piercing or spike like that? 

The voice thing makes sense.  If Vin's mom was under the influence of Ruin, and it was Ruin that led her to kill Vin's sister and put the earing in Vin's ear, then it would make sense that Reens voice is also Ruin.  Maybe we just don't know Ruin's true motive.  Think of Breeze and how he's always saying you have to use a 'subtle touch.'  Maybe by talking to her as Reen and just bugging her he is setting himself up to make some more meaningful suggestions later on that she thinks are coming from inside her head, not outside it.

Vin's mom probably was also under the influence of Ruin.  However, I don't think simply having a spike or some metal piercing you puts you under his influence.  It has to be a hemalurgic spike (presumably) made from a sacrifice.

Also, inquisitors can pierce copper clouds.  Marsh confirms this to Vin.  It is mentioned.

I think the reason that Club's shop wasn't found was simply because inquisitors never passed it.  Luthadel was a big place and I'm sure Inquisitors didn't just stroll around.

97
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Ashfalls
« on: April 30, 2008, 03:42:47 AM »
I really think the color of the Ash is significant.  Normal ash is white, this ash is black.  I'm not sure why that's significant, but it seems like it is that way for more than just to add to the setting.

98
Brandon Sanderson / Re: The "Snapping" Thread
« on: April 30, 2008, 12:23:08 AM »
This is an interesting point.

I think Straff did only give birth to one Mistborn (if you don't count Elend).  However, I think that it's very logical that there could of been a Mistborn in his house that wasn't one of his offspring.  We know that the great houses had several nobles living in them.  It's probably safe to say they weren't all from the same family.   

Doesn't he make a point about Zane is the only one he would trust because it's his own blood? 

The point also goes to thinking that with what he was doing in MB2, he would of brought every Mistborn he had control over. 

99
Brandon Sanderson / Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« on: April 29, 2008, 07:01:17 PM »
Thanks for pointing out those things Darxbane, I think it really contributes to the "Inquisitors use Allomancy" idea.

For the comment about us not really seeing much of inquisitors, I would agree, but also disagree.  True, there aren't that many words written where we see them directly, but we do get a lot of indirect knowledge.

In addition, almost every time we do get a good view of them, they are fighting.  This goes back to the "what other powers could they have?" theory.  When we see them, they are in battle.  They have a very very important goal in their minds (capturing Vin, or in MB2, stopping Vin, or fighting for their lives).  IMO, if they had other powers, they would use them in this scenario. 

Wouldn't that be the one time that we would seem them use other powers (if they had any)?  When they were fighting?  That makes the most sense to me.  Why would they hold back?  They have goals they want to accomplish, they are fighting for their lives, they wouldn't hold back.  They would use every advantage at their disposal.  Thus, I think this also enforces the idea that they use allomancy, and hemalurgy is the process by which they acquire it.

Finally, the other things we have seen about hemalurgy are mostly related to the process of creating inquisitors.

If you think back, there are several references to how inquisitors are made.  IMO, that is Brandon's way of leading us to accept the idea that hemalurgy is the process that does that.  It's not what they use for thier powers.  It's how they get their powers.  He wouldn't spend the time referencing the various glimpses into how they are made unless it was an important part.

Also, I think we have to look back to the quote from the Lord Ruler about making them.  I don't have the exact words, but I believe it was something along the lines of "Those (inquisitors) are very difficult to replace."  He mentions that they are very hard to make.  If hemalurgy was simply putting spikes in someone, then inquisitors wouldn't be difficult to replace.  Even if some of the spikes were made of pure atium, it still doesn't seem like that would be something that TLR would find "difficult."

However, finding skaa mistings of a particular type, and a keeper that can be sacrificed all to make one inquisitor... THAT seems like something that the Lord Ruler would consider "difficult."


100
Brandon Sanderson / Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« on: April 29, 2008, 06:50:51 PM »
Quote from: Chaos2651 on April 29, 2008, 02:18:20 PM
If this whole "magic-stealing" thing worked, it would be through a blood sacrifice to, um, "Hemalurgify" the metal. Inquisitors are already pretty much decked out in plenty of metal, so I highly doubt Marsh would be able to steal Feruchemy from the Keepers he has slain. If there was stealing, and if that is how it works, then Marsh would need to get a NEW spike in order for any Feruchemist-sacrifice to work.

Likewise, for Vin to steal a power, there would need to be a blood sacrifice Hemalurgifying a piece of metal--namely her bronze earring, and I think her earring's sacrifice was her sister, not anything else.

So, I think that power-stealing is not quite a plausible theory. Possibly true, but it seems implausible.

I don't quite get your point.  What would be so hard about him getting a new spike?  It seems like there were plenty of extra at the Convetical.

Also, from the Vin example, it shows that it doesn't necessarily need to be a 'spike,'  just a piece of metal.  I'm sure the kind of metal matters however.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  If it requires a blood sacrifice to make the metal part of hemalurgy, and her sister was the sacrifice, then the conditions seem to be met.  This would explain why Ruin can talk to her (as Reen) and why she can pierce copper clouds.

For a really wacky idea, what if Vin's sister was an Allomancer (seeker maybe, if we go with the power-stealing idea)?  We know her blood line is really strong, so maybe there is a higher chance with her family.  Is there any proof that Reen was as well?  That could explain how the inquisitors finally caught up with him.  Maybe when they 'killed' Reen they used him to make a new inquisitor (like Marsh).

101
Brandon Sanderson / Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« on: April 29, 2008, 01:26:32 AM »
Quote from: Andrew the Great on April 29, 2008, 12:48:37 AM
I like your post, Phaz but I also disagree with some of it.

Quote from: Phaz on April 28, 2008, 07:29:19 PM
So, Inquisitors.  We know that they can be made from allomancers (Marsh).  We know that they have the powers of a mistborn.  We know that their abilities are usually stronger than normal Mistborn.   We know that they use allomancy.

We do not actually know that they have the powers of a mistborn, at least from what I recall. If you have a passage to support this, I would appreciate it. As is, we know that they can push/pull metals and that they can use atium. It is likely that they strengthen themselves with pewter. However, I can't recall an inquisitor ever using emotional allomancy. They would have no need of tin as it would not help their "blue line" vision anyway, and hearing better wouldn't really help them. They don't need aluminum, and likely not duralumin as they are so powerful in the first place. I would say that it is possible that they have the powers of mistborn, but has by no means been proven.


I don't have a ton of time, but wanted to address this quick point.

First, it's true, we haven't seen them use all the powers of a Mistborn, but IMO they have been shown (or we've heard) about them using many.  I'd say we know they can use steel, iron, atium, pewter, bronze, and possibly copper.

They don't need to have all the powers of a Mistborn, especially if we are assuming that hemalurgy simply 'steals' the power of a misting.  Why take something you aren't going to need?  They won't need Tin to see, but could perhaps use it to hear.  The emotional ones probably aren't necessary though, nor is alumninum, so why bother?

As for the rest.  I would say that what we see inquisitors do is the same as what we see allomancers do.  My best evidence for this are two key fights.

When Kell fights the inquisitor, the fight seems very balanced.  They are both strong in the same way, they both use metal in the same way, they both move in the same way.   I can't point out a lot of specific details, but it has the 'feel' of them being very much the same.

However, when Sazed fights Marsh, the fight does not feel that way.  Sazed can move much faster than Marsh (for short periods).  When Sazed changes physically, he changes physically.  He gets inhumanly large or or thin or muscular.

To me, reading about inquisitors, it just seemed like they were using the same powers.  They do things in the same way.

Also, we know metal is involved, so maybe the different types of metals are what effects what abilities you can steal.  Such as maybe a gold spike will steal the healing ability from a feruchemist, and a different kind of spike would steal a different ability.

Finally, feel free to be as critical of my posts as you can :)  I believe it was Einstein who was famous for pointing out that no number of people agreeing with you can ever make you right.  However, it only takes one person to prove you wrong.

102
Brandon Sanderson / Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« on: April 28, 2008, 07:29:19 PM »
Rereading this thread I noticed that the posts keep getting longer and longer and longer.

The posts have been building on each other for the most part, and now we have a very complex description of hemalurgy, or at least a guess of what it is.

However, since the posts have gotten so long, I started thinking at things from another angle.  I'm a big fan of Occam's razor (the simplest solution is usually the best).  Thus, I applied that principal to this and came up with the following:

First, what do we know about hemalurgy.  We know that it is (likely) used by the Lord Ruler, and it is definitely used by Inquisitors.  The Lord Ruler I think is a special case, since he took the power from the well, etc.  Thus, I didn't use him in the theory, since using him as evidence could complicate the analysis since he has been exposed to other sources of power that could explain the phenomenon.

So, Inquisitors.  We know that they can be made from allomancers (Marsh).  We know that they have the powers of a mistborn.  We know that their abilities are usually stronger than normal Mistborn.   We know that they use allomancy.

Now, the last part there could be debated.  However, (from the "Do inquisitors burn metals) thread, I think there is good evidence that they do burn metals.  In addition, we know the powers they have are the exact same as what allomancers use.  They can push/pull metals.  They can make themselves stronger.  They can pierce a copper cloud.  They haven't done anything that allomancers can't (*except one, which I'll explain).   I don't see a reason to have two magic systems that have the same powers, just different sources of that power.  Thus, I would say (again, using Occam's razor) that inquisitors use allomancy in the exact same way Mistings and Mistborn do.

The only thing that we know they do, that isn't a product of allomancy, is healing very fast.  It just so happens, that while Allomancers can't do this, we know that Feruchemists can.

Thus, we have inquistors, who use hemalurgy, who have powers, but those powers all exists in the world of allomancy or feruchemy.

This leaves me with the following conclusion.  Instead of Hemalurgy being this complex system involving using your blood to fuel powers or something, what if it is as simple as a process that let's you 'steal' powers from an Allomancer or a Feruchemist.

In addition to being IMO the "simple" answer, I think there is plenty of evidence in support of this.

There is lots of evidence that suggests hemalurgy is a process for the most part.

We could assume that if you 'steal' a power from someone that you already have, it would make you even stronger at it.   This could explain why Vin can pierce copper clouds, just as inquisitors can, but she can't heal like them.  Maybe if you stole the power from 3 coin shots, your power to push metals would be far above what a normal coinshot would have.  Also, like with Marsh, if he had the ablity of a seeker, then stole the powers of a seeker, he would have even more seeker power.  Brandon mentions in his annotations that the ability to pierce a coper cloud and affect metals inside the body isn't something special, it's just someone being very very powerful with that particular skill.

We know that people are killed in the process of hemalurgy.  It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to think if you stole someone's power, it would involve killing them to do so.

We also know that TLR is obsessed with tracking down skaa mistings and feruchemists.  We are given adequate explanations in the series for why he wants to do this.  But, what if he also does it so that he can use them in the creation of more inquisitors.

How does this sound to everyone else?

103
Brandon Sanderson / Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« on: April 26, 2008, 06:27:33 AM »
Quote from: Comatose on April 26, 2008, 06:14:58 AM
Yes but this proves that Alendi can hear Ruin's voice, or at least sense his intent somewhat.  i also posted somewhere (where did that other post end up, sorry I guess I got off topic, perhaps the ruin and preservation thread?) that Alendi is also influenced by Preservation, or can here it's voice (i.e., The whispers telling him everything will be all right)  You notice that ruin's voice is demanding, and Preservation (if this theory is right) speaks in whispers.  Just some speculations.

The influence could be due to the amount of metal you have stuck in you.

Vin has a small earing, so it seems like she hears the voice sometimes.

Zane had a larger spike, so he heard the voice all the time.

Allendi had the "Piercings of heroes" (I believe) so he probably falls somewhere in between.

104
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Mysterious Reen ?
« on: April 26, 2008, 06:23:02 AM »
Quote from: Chaos2651 on April 26, 2008, 05:35:33 AM
Sure, it sounds good to say that Reen's voice is Ruin--I quite like the idea. But, what does Ruin have to gain by doing this to Vin? I thought the entire point of MB2 was to make sure Vin was the perfectly noble hero in order to "stop the Deepness". If Ruin was acting as Reen's voice, constantly saying that "anyone can betray you" does not sound like the thing to say to groom the perfect hero.

Secondly, for most of the second book, Vin doesn't hear the voice, and yet does wear her Hemalurgic earring all the time. If we say that the Lord Ruler was supressing the power of Ruin during the Final Empire, then wouldn't after the Lord Ruler is dead, Vin's voices get worse?

That is not to say Ruin couldn't do that. He's insanely manipulative; he could have easily done it. It could easily be some super-secret enigmatic plot on his part that we can scarcely comprehend.

(But I doubt that very much.)

I honestly think the reason that Reen's voice doesn't appear much in MB2 is because if it did, it would be easier to make the connection between Reen's voice and Zane's.  Thus, I think Brandon minimized the use to try and leave this as a surprise for as many readers as possible.

105
Brandon Sanderson / Re: The Mists
« on: April 26, 2008, 03:56:23 AM »
Quote from: Comatose on April 26, 2008, 03:37:48 AM
It's he, just so you know vintage.

And I guess I really shoudl read those annotations, I jsut don't get how the lrod ruler could be getting power from hemalurgy, there are obviously things we haven't even imagined that are capable with hemalurgy.

OK, I read than annotation, here's what I found:
Quote
Making Inquisitors via Hemalurgy requires killing other people (see book three for an explanation of the process) so there's a lot of mess involved.
VIA, that pretty much confirms our suspicions about hemalurgy, it being a process not a power.
Quote
Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. .
And there it is, he obviously isn't a product of hemalurgy though, I'd say he has power because he is able to create inquisitors, that's what I'd say.
Quote
Two attributes that can be stored up by Feruchemists, by the way, are healing and the ability to move very quickly. The Lord Ruler had access to both of these abilities in extreme, augmented ways, which was part of what has made him so powerful.
This still makes me think I'm right, he's so powerful because of his feruchemy and allomancy combined,  he might use hemalurgy, but I don't think he used it on himself, you notice how int he above quote, Brandon says if he would have pulled of the bracelets instead, meaning his feruchemical weakness, so the bracelets piercing his arms have nothing to do with hemalurgy, if that's true than what does?
Perhaps that's what he uses to limit Ruin's influence.

You seem to contradict yourself here.

First, you say that Hemalurgy is a process, not a power.

Then you quote something saying his power comes partially from Hemalurgy, meaning that he's used the process on himself.

Then you say it's just his feruchemy and allomancy, and he didn't use it on himself.

I think the more likely conclusion is that if hemalurgy is a process, then maybe that is why his feruchemy and allomancy are so strong.   Maybe that's what it does.

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