Timewaster's Guide Archive

Karen, welcome.  I had wondered to myself what happens to something Awakened when its Awakener dies, but hadn't connected it to the God King.  It's an interesting idea.  I don't know that "the more complex a lifeless is, the more breaths went into his or her making" is true, though -- we've learned that Lifeless can be Awoken relatively easily if you know how, since that's the secret on which rests Hallandren's power.

It seems there are both 3rd and 4th parties, if you will.  Bluefingers and the Pahn Kahl (sp?) people tried to prevent Siri from having a child, remember.  Tridees, the God King's priest, was the one pushing for it.  Which of them knows what?

Vasher does have that way of speaking that makes it seem like he was there during/after the Manywar, I agree.  Breaths do extend life, we're told.  Although his words could also just be scholarly arrogance.

Does anyone else remember how when Jewels first tells Denth that Vasher is in town, she says his name is "Tax" and that he's calling himself Vasher now as a joke?  The punchline should be interesting.

MattD

This is the same king remember who couldn't bear to send Vivenna in the first place.

MattD

Well, here's one idea.  With /ug/ you can rhyme (among other things) bug and dug, and dirt and insects are the sort of primal things that resonate with many young children (stereotypically boys -- if this were a story for a general audience I'd suggest you make the protagonist a girl just to shake up gender expectations).  You could have a story about a boy named Doug who dug (showing how the same sounds can be produced by different groups of letters) and found a bug that he put in a jug.  Or something like that.  Then go outside with the kids for five minutes, have them each dig up a bug, put it in a jug you have, and then you all go back inside for a mug of hot chocolate.  Maybe show them an ant farm at that point, too, as a way of giving context and meaning to the whole exercise.

It's not Shakespeare but hopefully it gives you some ideas...

MattD

Interesting chapter.  Is the way that Awakening works a consciously different take on the Eddings Will/Word system?  It seemed similar at first (in application -- focus your will and then say the words -- if not underlying theory), but the sound factor -- which seems like it should maybe get more attention throughout the book -- changes things up.  My intuition was that something like "Hold Things" would take more Breath than "Hold That Branch" because the first requires more work.  But that seems to have nothing to do with it; in fact, with Awakening they have a system for perpetual motion (and thus energy).  A wheel Commanded to Turn would turn forever, a Lifeless horse Commanded to go back and forth between two points at certain times would do it to the dot every single day, etc.

It's purely my own preference and shouldn't get in the way of the core story, but I think it's a marvelous chance for imagination to flesh out in a purposeful way what a city like this would look like and how it would operate -- Hallendren right now feels like a typical fantasy/late-medieval city, relatively untouched by the influence of Breath.  Yet look at all the ways our world has changed in the few hundred years we've had electricity.  So do you want to emphasize the plight of the poor in the slum?  Have Vivenna see that most of the menial jobs in the city are done by Lifeless, since business owners wouldn't have to pay them.  Want to present the city as an orderly system?  Show that Lifeless are used to deliver the mail or provide public transportation at precise schedules.  Want to present the city as decaying and decadent?  Describe that those same Lifeless are starting to fall apart and the schedules falter, or have Awakened ceiling fans spinning endlessly in the houses of the rich, while poor Drabs suffer in the heat....

One thing Vasher's explanation didn't address is Drabs.  Is a Drab thus someone without BioChroma?  This may fall under the "we don't know everything" category, but why then cannot a Drab be Commanded?

Realizing that I read the version 1 edition of all the early chapters, has Vivenna's character pre-betrayal been changed at all in the later drafts?  She seems to see her earlier self a little differently than I remember her.  In this chapter she's going on about how sure of her beliefs she used to be, but my memory was that Denth started challenging her beliefs almost as soon as she arrived in the City, which is pretty much when we were introduced to her as a character.  Reading her take on herself in this chapter, I might suggest -- if you haven't already -- making her even more arrogant and sure of herself, less questioning, in the earlier chapters, delaying some of her inner doubts until a bit later.  Denth might challenge her beliefs a little less, encourage her contempt of Hallendren a little more (wouldn't that be more in his interest?).  That would allow us to see her transformation as more substantive now in these later chapters, and also better contrast her with Siri in those earlier chapters.

Edit (addition):

It bugs me how Vasher won't answer her questions though. I wish he would/could be more open... if even just a little about nightblood. We don't even have an idea of why he/(it?) would make her sick when she touched it. It seemed like it was a test or something from their first meeting... anybody have any guesses about him, because I don't really?

My take is that Nightblood is one of those "only ye who is of pure intent may draw me" type devices -- the evil you have in you, you have done to you.  But it may be something more specific.  Vasher's silence is one of those things where he really needs to have a good reason for it -- nevermind Nightblood, he still hasn't told Vivenna what his ultimate goals and plans are and who he is working for/with.

MattD

Zelany is actually the only one that sounds familiar out of that group.  Are most of those Sci-Fi authors?  [...] Do you have any favorites that those authors have written?

Some of the authors I mentioned have written both fantasy and science fiction, but I was thinking of them for their works of fantasy (although in some cases there's a fine line between the two).  If I had to place them in rough order of recommendation, I would do it thusly:

Zelazny -- his first Chronicles of Amber is a fantasy classic (the first book is "Nine Princes in Amber", or look for the collection "The Great Book of Amber").  First person POV of a man who wakes up without any memory, and slowly discovers he's the heir to the primal kingdom of which our world and legends are just shadows.  If you've read Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos books (have you? if not, they're well worth a read, too) then Zelazny's characterization of Corwin is similar, sarcastic and introspective.

Martha Wells -- my favorite fantasy writer that nobody knows about.  If you like Brandon Sanderson's books you might like hers: single-volume fantasies set in richly imagined worlds without tropes like dwarves and dragons; not too dark; often a dash of romance.  "Death of the Necromancer" (not as cheesy as it sounds, was a Nebula Award nominee) is a good place to begin as long as you don't mind a bit of Sherlock Holmes pastiche; otherwise look into "Wheel of the Infinite," a fantasy with a Southeast Asian influence.  First few chapters of each are online at http://www.marthawells.com/.

K.J. Bishop -- I thought of her "Etched City" because it's another somewhat gritty, morally ambiguous take on fantasy, like Bakker, but has better defined characters than Erikson and a more streamlined story (although without any sort of strong "quest object").  First chapter (which doesn't really do the book justice) is online at http://www.fantasticmetropolis.com/i/etched/full/.

M. John Harrison -- I mentioned him because his Viriconium fantasy books (collected in the volume "Viriconium") attempt to deconstruct epic fantasy, sort of like what Bakker does.  Gorgeous writing and deeply thoughtful but not the best choice if you want strongly defined characters or plotting.

MattD

So I have this hilarious picture in my head of "Seb" (that just doesn't work for me) pausing like every 30 seconds to scribble down something like "oh" and "yes," finally trailing off to a bunch of exclamation points. 

Seriously, the scene didn't necessarily feel unrealistic -- put two people together like Siri and Susebron have been and something will happen more often than not -- but it did feel a little...typical, I guess.  Unsurprising.  Plus Warbeaker seems to be undoing a lot of the good that Sarene did in Elantris, towards showing female characters who aren't the stereotypical "emotional woman."  Heck, even Jewels is now wishing she and Clod could just escape from this all.

(Of course, that's my feeling now; I reserve the right to change my mind by the end of the book.)

The more little bits we learn the more confused I get about some things.  In addition to the person/object distinction with Breath, there's the person/Returned distinction, too.  Although is there any reason the God King has to be a Returned?  Do we even really know (regardless of what we've been told) that Susebron is a Returned?  Maybe the Priests expect him to be able to father a child because he's not.

MattD

A Drab can sense breaths in others, only it is more difficult.  Anyone can easily see the auras of the Returned, but to see that of someone with far fewer breaths requires either close examination or the heightened sense of color provided by BioCroma.

Can they?  In the scene in this chapter where Vivenna regains her Breath, it is only then that she seems to perceive all the Breath that Vasher has himself.

Anyway, it's not an important question...I had remembered that Jewels (a Drab) had been the one to report to Denth that Vasher had a lot of Breath, but when I went back to re-read that scene, it was clear that Jewels had heard that he had a lot of Breath, it was not something she had seen herself.

Actually, the squirrel is another thing that niggled at me–it seemed a rather smart squirrel.  Perhaps Vasher is good at picking squirrels.

This was actually the most interesting thing to me about the previous Lightsong chapter, the way that the squirrel was able (to Llarimar's surprise) to carry out a complex set of instructions.  Did Vasher prepare it in some special way, does he have some secret knowledge?  Or do even the Returned and their priests not fully understand what Breath is and how it works?  Ever since the discussion we had about the magic system a few weeks ago, and in particular the person/object distinction, I've been mulling over exactly what Breath is in the back of my mind.  The fact that they may not have all the answers makes me feel better about the fact that I don't, either.

MattD

Pterath,

I actually cut the first quote you refer to out of my message shortly after writing it...the sentences I mention rubbed me the wrong way when I read them, but after thinking about it a bit I can see interpretations that make more sense.  It's more a matter of street smarts than strength and wisdom.

The idea that the Idris King might be involved doesn't preclude Blushweaver also being involved.  Perhaps they are allied?  But the whole thing is just an idea based on vague impressions left by this chapter, the first time that war was presented as less than a certainty, and is not something that I fully believe myself.

MattD