d20 Modern

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I don't think anyone argues that WotC has higher production values than Palladium, though to many people that's not an issue. With me, it's only a complaint that I'm paying the same for a good looking book as I am for a book that I could print off my own computer and look just as good.

As for system, yeah, Palladium has more tables. Many of which are often not explained, but they're there. So you can get up and go faster. Perhaps it'd be worth the time to come up with random tables for the various d20 systems, as I've actually had a player want to make a random character. I think I'll stick with standard races when I do it, perhaps later making a monstrous character race table later (with an 85% chance of being a standard race). at any rate. I concur that this can be an advantage, and it's something I like in WHFRPG, but that's partially because there are something like a billion classes in warhammer and a neophyte hardly has a chance of knowing what he likes out of all of them.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Bringing up an old topic because its relevent.
I disagree with saints assertion that the class names are dull. I see the class name as half of a component the class and the starting occupation. I think its cool because when you are done with the character you might have a different type of descriptor than someone in the same occupation. I'll use a basketball team as an example....

Lets make everyone an athelete for a moment

There are 5 positions on a basketball team and six character classes so I'll have to fudge a little.

The power forward is your strong hero, using his strength to open up shots and move the ball down the court, he's assisted by the smart hero, the forward who uses his intelligence to enhance his versatility, the center is your tough hero, he's big like Shaq, while your point guard is a fast hero. the shooting guard is your dedicated hero, using his wisdom to set up shots and force shots. Your team showboat is your charismatic hero and obviously he can play any position>

so the classes combine with the occupation and form a descriptive phrase.
Smart Athlete, Dedicated Athlete, Strong Athlete and so on...
I think its a lot more flexible than Paladin, Fighter, Bard, becuase it tells you more about the character...

[Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock]

I see what you're saying. Its like the glass is half full, when actually its just half empty.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

actually the other way around.... I think its half full

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

feh. I still think the class names are lame.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Well I think the names in D&D are lame right back...

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

good for you. I don't, but heaven knows if we all agreed with me it'd be terrible. Who would I argue with?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

shock !~

[Eagle Prince]

I don't have d20 modern, but I recently read through the SRD.  The idea of 6 base classes each based on an attribute is a pretty good idea.  The game is pretty generic (although that could very well be because of the SRD), so the idea of more generic classes like that works.  If its supposed to be for something more specific, like a CoC rpg (which only has 2 base classes, kinda pathetic) or d&d in the modern world (aka urban arcana) then I would agree that the classes are pretty lame and dull.

The wealth system is really interesting, but somewhat poorly executed.  Lets say I want to have a very wealthy character, like that is my character concept.  I even pick up Windfall and other feats like this.  If I get my wealth up to 45, I could buy a tank and only take a 1 point hit to wealth... I could also buy a desert eagle and take a 1 point hit.  Or I could pick up a +3 desert eagle of distance for the same 1 point hit.

One thing I found really annoying and stupid, Opportunist costs an action point why?!?  Tough can get DR 3/- and its always active, yet this dnd-swiped ability costs an action point.  The only way I could see this ability as a problem in Modern that isn't in D&D, getting to use Opportunist with your desert eagle on a guy your friend just popped, everyone being like 30+ feet from each other.  However, this would mean AoOs work different in modern than in D&D, because you can't actually make an  AoO unless you threaten the person (which ranged weapons don't).  If that's the case, I can see the reason for the action point cost, but I saw no mention of AoOs working different.

Overall I feel the game isn't as balanced as d&d 3.0 and even less so compared to 3.5.  I also didn't like how they made out NPCs as ultra non-heroic.  D&D as been steering away from this, yet they backtracked with modern.  I suppose this was to "explain" why PCs could do all these amasing things in a RL game (they are heroes), but I can't offhand remember anything in the base 6 classes that seemed unreal; all of the abilities are things you could imagine someone in the real world doing.

[42]

I would have to disagree with your estimation of the wealth system. The wealth system is set upas perpetual income. One of the rules of economic is that people who have a lot of money also make a lot of money. So with a wealth bonus of 45, that means that you can spend almost three million dollars every day and not feel it. It means you probably have the income of Brittany Spears or the ilk ($800 million anually), which means your only a multi-millionair, not a billionair. Someone who makes that much cash could easily buy a tank and not have it dent their income. In fact, Arnold Swartzenager did just that in the late eighties and he didn't give a second thought to the cost.

So if you find it kind of odd to be able to buy a tank on a whim, then you probably shouldn't play a wealthy character.

And I find D20 modern to be balanced for gamers who play with skills as much or more than combat. If you're interest is primarily in beating the bad guys up then you're right it's not too balanced.

[Fellfrosch]

I think his problem with the wealth is not that he could buy a tank, but that the tank and the desert eagle "cost the same" in terms of wealth rating. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought that anything under your wealth rating was essentially free--you could buy an infinite number of Desert Eagles and not lose any points.

[Eagle Prince]

Yes Fellfrosch, that was exactly my problem.  It also wasn't that desert eagles would lower wealth, it was that it lowered it exactly the same as a tank or +3 desert eagles of distance.

Well, you are almost right about the free thing.  You can buy anything lower than your Wealth rating for free, as long as the DC is below 15.  Desert Eagles are DC 18 IIRC, thus they automatically cost a point even if your wealth is 45 or even 100.

The wealth system is a lot easier and more stylish than just starting with X amount of dollars and making profession/craft checks to see how much money you make each year.  It just has some quirks is all.

[Entsuropi]

Tanks don't cost much. Army surplus here in the UK start at £10,000. Guns have been deactivated, but i'm sure a mechanic who knows what to do could get around that.

[Eagle Prince]

This isn't exactly a run-down army surplus tank, its a brand-new fully functional Abram tank that deals something like 10d12 damage a hit.  But the point was more that it costs you the same as a lamborghini diablo or even a 500$ handgun.  Its just how the wealth system is set up, a plain old desert eagle eventually costs you the same as a +5 vorpal longsword or whatever else you wanted.  Of course, it would actually be a pretty big chore to get that high of a wealth score.  You could possibly get a wealth score over 20 at 1st level, and maybe even manage to increase it with level-ups and profession.  Eventually you couldn't make a skill check high enough to raise it anymore.  You could possibly keep on raising it with Gamble, if you totally maxed it out.  Then Windfall is always an option, that's like another 3 ultra-magic items or whatever, plus a +1 bonus on all profession checks, but you'd still be better off just maxing out Gamble.  Even that would begin to fail you at a certain point, since the most you'd be able to win once your wealth got that high is +1, and it costs you -1 to gamble in the first place.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

the problem with your argument, EP, is that you're saying eventually you can buy anything you want. Well, yeah, you can. You build up your wealth so you're fabulously wealthy. The two things dont' cost the same, but they have the same over all impact on your wealth: no real long term dent.

Wealth was one of the things I liked most about d20 Modern. dealt with money SO much better than any other modern/SF setting I'd seen before without making you muck about with real world accounting and running a business.