Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Anaphyis on August 03, 2008, 07:42:50 PM
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I'm aware that asking this kind of thing is nearly pointless in a fan forum, however I loved Elantris and liked Mistborn except some passages where my willing suspension of disbelief was pretty stretched thin. Well of Ascension however I dropped after Part 2 with extreme disappointment.
While I could attribute some characters behaving somehow dense in the course of The Final Empire to the fact that I as the reader know more then them, It seriously gets frustrating in WoA. The whole kandra-spy-subplot doesn't make sense whatsoever: The thought to speed up the evaluation of the core crew from more then one per week/month doesn't occur to Vin when the stated facts by OreSeur makes the process actually quite easy, no one seems to consider it just plain ludicrous discussing a secret plan against an enemy in front of a potential spy of said enemy, Elend considers it a brilliant idea to pretty much tell his ruthless father "you better kill my antium-lacking darling you underestimated till now before marching towards Luthadel" and sorry, his whole pseudo-democratic monarchy dream is just Meh. Not to mention the - yes, subjective - feeling that nothing actually happened in the first 300 pages except new story threads appearing out of the blue.
But still, I really would prefer to continue a story which started so great with The Final Empire to throwing the book and it's successor in the crackling fireplace. It's just that right now I have lost all hope that continuing would be any more then a waste of time.
So please, it would be nice if someone could convince me that it all gets magically better after Part Two.
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The last portion of the book is by far the best. The break in action and adding of new plot points was mainly to set up for the end of this book and to set up for the third book. This happens a lot in trilogies and is a hard thing to avoid. However, I promise it does get better, and who the Kandra spy is will surprise you. The action picks up and we learn a lot about thing and everything gets set up for an EPIC third book. Just keep reading. ;)
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Yeah, I had a hard time with Well of Ascension the first time as well. It gets better as you go along, and the end is the best part, though if you're looking for resolution, you may want to hold off till book three comes out. The ending is intense, and it leaves you a setup for an amazing third book. So keep reading, if nothing else, for the sake of the third book.
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Well, pretty much all the conflicts of the second book are resolved by the end of the second book, so you get enough resolution there—the setup for the third book that's at the end is mostly for a conflict that the characters are only starting to realize, in the second book, even exists.
The book does suffer from a bit of second-book syndrome due to the nature of the conflict, I think. The first book's and third book's conflicts are epic in scale, but the second book's conflict seems less so. Yet I still found it an interesting exploration of something you don't see a lot of in the genre (what happens after you defeat the dark lord; how you pick up the pieces).
Elend and Vin both lack a lot of experience and learn a lot through the mistakes they make in book two. That also is something I think is realistic; if they had the skill and wisdom to solve everything perfectly on their first try, that would have been unbelievable.
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In my opinion, the book didn't start to get good until after Part Four. After that, it's Brandon avalanche, where you push to the ending.
And the ending... holy crap, that made the entire book worthwhile. It is truly phenomenal.
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Please finish the book. I personnally liked the entire book, but I can see where some people would be a little bored. However, I believe that to be part of the plan. You start to feel the way the main characters do about the siege. The waiting is the worst part. However, just when you don't think you can stand it anymore.....WHAM! Down the hole you go. This book is not War and Peace. Suffer through the next couple hundred pages, it will be worth it. By the way, which parts were difficult for you to accept? I thought Elantris has a lot more holes in it than Mistborn does.
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Agreed, now I really loved both Elantris and the Mistborns but I found there to be more holes in Elantris. It was an amazing book that I recomend to others but it had alot less continuity. If you've ever read an epic fantasy novel you will find quite a bit of re-building and times of upheaval where it seams the only thing the main characters are doing is the oposite of what they need to do. I found Woa to be a very good middle book for a trilogy. It had enouph plot of its own to stand alone and keep you interested while at the same time providing more closure from the first book and setting up for the third. If I might ask, how exactly do you drop a book of no more than maybe 400 hundred pages (I say maybe due to not having the book with me to reference) after you read the first book? You clearly liked it enouph to find this forum and post your opinion about how the 1/3 of the book you actualy read wasn't good enouph for you. I'm aware you knew what you would find when you posted on this fan forum. The real question is why post? Does the opinion of people you don't know really have that much effect on you or do you need a reason to justify picking the book up again (you clearly want to)? I know I'm coming off as rude so I'll stop here.
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Thanks for your answers, It's nice to see I wasn't alone with my impression and still could be persuaded to finish the book. I could go on nitpicking but most could be attributed to the simple fact that I can't stand Elend for various reasons and the deep worry Brandon might be going for a "build up a heroine and then degrade her to a sidekick for the Scrappy" stunt. Still, at the end, it was time spend well.
By the way, which parts were difficult for you to accept? I thought Elantris has a lot more holes in it than Mistborn does.
It has been some weeks since I finished The Final Empire so I don't remember the details. It was just an overall feeling. Maybe it is because Elantris has a more unconventional setting and premise which let me dismiss plotholes more easily then Mistborn, which is a bit more "mundane" so to speak. But it really isn't much more then a subjective impression thing so I can't say for certain.
If I might ask, how exactly do you drop a book of no more than maybe 400 hundred pages (I say maybe due to not having the book with me to reference) after you read the first book? You clearly liked it enouph to find this forum and post your opinion about how the 1/3 of the book you actualy read wasn't good enouph for you. I'm aware you knew what you would find when you posted on this fan forum. The real question is why post? Does the opinion of people you don't know really have that much effect on you or do you need a reason to justify picking the book up again (you clearly want to)? I know I'm coming off as rude so I'll stop here.
No, these are valid questions. Let me try to explain what I intended to do here by using a metaphor:
You go into a restaurant. It all looks nice and it smells good and you had good experiences in the past in that restaurant. You eat the first course of the meal and find out it contains an ingredient you can't stand. Unfortunately, the chef is currently unavailable so you look around and see other guests in the restaurant who obviously enjoyed their meal and are now chatting idly. You tell them nicely that you can't stand ingredient xy and ask them If it would be worthwhile for you to stay for the other courses (thus asking if they would contain ingredient xy) cause you don't want to gulp down other courses in the faint hope, the following would be more like the ones you remembered from the other times you've eaten here.
I might just do the latter under normal circumstances, however I still have plenty of other unread books here and my vacation is coming to an end, so I have to be a little bit more picky.
What I was afraid of were fanboys telling me how stupid I was for not liking Teh best b00k evar!!1! What I wanted was a more earnest opinion and surprisingly, that's the only thing I got. Which gives me hope for the internet - Thank you for that :)
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Maybe... maybe Brandon just appeals to a better, more competent audience, and so all the fans on the internet are correspondingly more mature? I sure hope so :P
No, but while I still stayed up many nights reading Well of Ascension (I wanted to get some answers on mythology! That's what pushed me through the thing!), I never really liked most of it--at least, not in the same way that I adored TFE. I still don't like Zane.
Things get awesome when, you know, the siege starts.
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I actually enjoyed the entire book. . . . then again I also enjoy reading philosophy, war and peace, etc. ha ha.
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i would definitely say Final Empire was better, but the ending of MB2 is by no means dissapointing. You did not really flesh out your opinions on Elend but i did find myself disliking him, when i really did like him a lot in FE.
And yes you should definitely finish the book, the ending is epic and sets the stage for Hero of Ages!!
plus, would it even be possible for you to read half a book, post and ask opinions on it, and then not read the rest? IMPOSSIBLE!!!
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plus, would it even be possible for you to read half a book, post and ask opinions on it, and then not read the rest? IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Agreed. I think with the interest shown here that Anaphyis will at one point finish the book. My problem is that until now I had no idea that this many fans of Mistborn didn't like WoA. Im not going to criticise. I understand that we're all allowed our own opinions and most people who post here are fans of Brandon so your entitled. But really? Wow I thought it was very good.
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What I was afraid of were fanboys telling me how stupid I was for not liking Teh best b00k evar!!1! What I wanted was a more earnest opinion and surprisingly, that's the only thing I got. Which gives me hope for the internet - Thank you for that
No need to worry about that here. In fact, I have yet to read a post that was in any way mean-spirited or harmful to someone else.
I actually liked WoA better than Final Empire, if only for the fact that I always wonder about what happens after the bad guy loses. I love the appendices in Return of the King, especially the ones that describe what becomes of the Fellowship.
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As far as the concepts and ideas, yes, I liked WoA much better.
However, there were some spots that were just a little slow for me to get through. And in the end, I pushed through, and it was more than worth it.
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What I was afraid of were fanboys telling me how stupid I was for not liking Teh best b00k evar!!1! What I wanted was a more earnest opinion and surprisingly, that's the only thing I got. Which gives me hope for the internet - Thank you for that :)
You know I find this to be very true. People here aren't very quick to judge other posters in opinion or anything. (except the occasional spelling correction miyabi. jk) I find it very nice to be able to hop on TWG and express opinions about EUOLs books without anything unnecessary involved. I'm still new to this whole thing so I’m still surprised with how well it works out sometimes.
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i would definitely say Final Empire was better, but the ending of MB2 is by no means dissapointing. You did not really flesh out your opinions on Elend but i did find myself disliking him, when i really did like him a lot in FE.
And yes you should definitely finish the book, the ending is epic and sets the stage for Hero of Ages!!
plus, would it even be possible for you to read half a book, post and ask opinions on it, and then not read the rest? IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Well, I don't know if I had never finished the book if others told me not to get my expectations too high. I would however dropped it for another one in my pile and perhaps made another attempt on WoA when I had more time again. That said, the book really made up for most of the dry streaks after part 4 or so and I find it hard now to wait for Hero of Ages.
About Elend (full rant, as requested. Don't say I didn't try to be nice and subtle ...)
I think it was Brandon's intention to put Elend in Kell's footprints to show how inept he is for the job that is expected of him in the beginning (which Elend moans about quite a bit) and then let him grow over the course of the book to fill these footprints a bit better. While he was a wide eyed, naive and sympathetic character in TFE and this character development might work out quite well for him in the third book, it was a chore to get through Elend's more angsty phases in WoA. To illustrate the point, Elend means misery/distress/unhappiness in German, an unhealthy connotation which fits quite too well sometimes.
Furthermore and one thing which annoyed me greatly about this, many chapters of the book contain at least one slightly negative to outright demeaning comment about Kelsier. While it is important to make clear that Kelsier had his shares of flaws, the massive quantity of these comments came around to me more like Brandon is saying "Hey, forget about Kelsier! Look at Elend, he is the real deal and way better then this douchebag!" which had the opposite effect on me.
Also Vin seems to suffer from quite a dose of Cassandra when around Elend. While most of the characters ramble on about trust all the time, especially Elend outright dismisses several of Vin's warnings and worries with a patronizing pat on the head. Despite the fact that a) He should know better after all this time (Sazed does - mostly) b) He has no experience or deeper knowledge about how Allomancy and the mist works yet doubts the words of a damn Mistborn and c) Toward the end of the book he definitly knows better and still does this several times.
This added to the large amount of viewpoints centered around Elend compared to the other major characters, the downright hypocritical "I'm ashamed of you" scene with Spook, the "Get a level of Mistborn" metal at the end and my worries about turning the character dynamic between Vin and Elend into one of these "Get back in the kitchen heroine, now it's time for the man to rise way above you in power level and handle things" plots I've seen way too much in fantasy ... let's just say that Brandon has to pull of something only marginally short of a miracle (or a "he is definitely and forever dead, Jim" scene) to make this character redeem himself in my eyes.
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Wow, it is amazing how differently interpretation works between people. I beleive this book shows Human frailty very well. Most of the "negative" Kelsier moments are actually endearing. They miss him greatly and wish he was still around, because he would know what to do. Blaming him for the results of his plan, for the responsibility he expounded on them, and, most importantly, for knowing them better than they knew themselves, is a natural reaction, in my opinion. I read no indication that anyone wanted Elend over Kelsier. In fact, it was Vin that the people were looking to to save them. Kelsier is not coming back. They need to move on. Besides, who's to say that Kelsier would have done a better job had he remained alive? He probably would have tried to take on Straff's armies by himself. Elend's character grew tremendously in this book, and I can understand why he didn't listen to Vin as closely as he probably should. He had the whole city under siege, fill Kelsier's shoes, run a new government, learn to become a King thing going on (not to mention Vin refusing his first marriage proposal - that one's on her for not trusting his decisions due to her lack of self confidence). He also realizes his mistake and tells her he trusts her no matter what she decides to do. I don't want to make this too big a wall o text, and I look forward to your response. I love a good debate.
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This seems like the thread to express your dislikes about the Mistborn series thus far so I'll chime in with a little something. Although, before I get to that I must first say that I loved TFE and really liked WoA.....
The only thing I did not like about WoA was that Elend and Vin came off a little whiny and depressed. I mean how much crap have they both been through at this point already? In my opinion the trials, especially Vin, that they have faced in life would have battle hardened them. I think that they should have more grit and toughness to them. Also, in line with that, is pretty much everyone lacks any sort of self-confidence. Everyone short of Zane that is and ironically that leads to his eventual demise.
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Zane's self-confidence comes from his acceptance of insanity. I imagine it is easy to have no fear when you also have no hope. Besides, he has Atium and she didn't so what reason would he have to worry? No one had any recollection of an atium user being defeated by someone who wasnt using it.
I also didn't find Elend and Vin all that whiny. It is easy to look at someone's problems and say "come on, get over it". Let me ask you though, do you have a bad habit or character flaw that you just can't seem to break? Easier said than done isn't it? Vin has been told she was worthless her whole life That doesn't go away overnight. Elend, on the other hand, just got a full and unmerciful shot of reality. He was quite inexperienced at the beginning. He is also king of a fledgling government, and is less than 25 years old. I know it's not exactly studying for Midterms pressure, but I'll cut him some slack ;). Everyone is out of their element, and are adapting to their new roles. Oh yeah, let's not forget that they are surrounded by armies of people who want to kill them all. That would wear on my mind a little. I actually would have been upset if they hadn't been fumbling around.
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What I was afraid of were fanboys telling me how stupid I was for not liking Teh best b00k evar!!1! What I wanted was a more earnest opinion and surprisingly, that's the only thing I got. Which gives me hope for the internet - Thank you for that :)
You know I find this to be very true. People here aren't very quick to judge other posters in opinion or anything. (except the occasional spelling correction miyabi. jk) I find it very nice to be able to hop on TWG and express opinions about EUOLs books without anything unnecessary involved. I'm still new to this whole thing so I’m still surprised with how well it works out sometimes.
Who me? ??? I would NEVER! ::) ha ha.
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Zane's self-confidence comes from his acceptance of insanity. I imagine it is easy to have no fear when you also have no hope. Besides, he has Atium and she didn't so what reason would he have to worry? No one had any recollection of an atium user being defeated by someone who wasnt using it.
I also didn't find Elend and Vin all that whiny. It is easy to look at someone's problems and say "come on, get over it". Let me ask you though, do you have a bad habit or character flaw that you just can't seem to break? Easier said than done isn't it? Vin has been told she was worthless her whole life That doesn't go away overnight. Elend, on the other hand, just got a full and unmerciful shot of reality. He was quite inexperienced at the beginning. He is also king of a fledgling government, and is less than 25 years old. I know it's not exactly studying for Midterms pressure, but I'll cut him some slack ;). Everyone is out of their element, and are adapting to their new roles. Oh yeah, let's not forget that they are surrounded by armies of people who want to kill them all. That would wear on my mind a little. I actually would have been upset if they hadn't been fumbling around.
I understand your point on them fumbling around and such so as to come off as more realistic characters. However, they just came off a little too whiny and unsure of themselves for my liking. I mean Vin destroyed TLR. A man whom she used to think was a living god. You'd think she would get pretty sure of herself shortly after. You do bring up good points about them being young and being thrown into a heap of problems that they themselves are trying to fix. Maybe I just put to much pressure on heroes in fantasy novels. :) All in all they are great characters and I am really nit-picking here.....
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I appreciate your opinion, Madness. It is good to see things differently then others. It would be a boring existence otherwise. I too wonder about her feelings about killing TLR. Sometimes I think she convinces herself that she just got lucky, or that he was not really a god, just a man with a really powerful trick to beat death. She is a master at making herself seem small, so good in fact that she even convinces herself at times. I do agree that this feat should have been enough to give her some confidence, at least.
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I agree with you, darxbane. And in a sense, she's right that it was mostly luck that allowed her to figure out TLR's trick and defeat him. That is, it also took a great deal of courage and perseverance and Allomantic skill, but in the end it was a lucky guess that tipped the balance in her favor. I can see why she wouldn't suddenly feel invincible as a result. I wouldn't.
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Vin also doesn't quite understand how she beat TLR. I'm sure she knows that she somehow drew on the mist and was able to use the metal that was inside TLR but she still doesnt understand it and she has yet been able to repeat it. So I kinda understand her lack of confidence. I mean really if you supposedly knew how something worked and you were confident in that knowlage and then all of the sudden something you didn't understand happend instead wouldn't you lack a little confidence in what happened? Especialy if you couldnt reproduce the result.
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Along these lines, I expect her to be even less confident in the next book than she was in the last.
They may have resolved the political issues around the city to some extent, but they have much bigger problems now. If they have any brains at all, they realize that they knew much less about the world than they needed to. At the end of WoA, Vin is starting to realize how thoroughly she was manipulated; no doubt she will figure it out even more if/when she hears Sazed's part of the story.
All of this leads into the fact that Vin may wonder just how much of her defeating TLR was really her own doing. So, yeah. I don't expect her to become less "whiny." Which is just another name for the inadequacy most people feel, Vin more than most. She may get over it, but probably by virtue of doing extraordinary things.
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Brandon did say that the bump before chapter one of TFE would give us the main theme of the entire history.
What would they think if they knew their hero doubted himself.
Or something like that[/color]
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Can you blame them??