Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Writing Group => Topic started by: Reaves on March 18, 2009, 08:29:40 PM
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Not sure how much more of an explanation I can put here beyond the title, lol. What do you guys think of the use of modern language and expressions from our culture in fantasy? Does it belong? Where have you seen it done well and poorly?
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It's a question of if it fits the world. If Tolkien had his orcs talking 1950's slang, it wouldn't have fit, but in other situations it might.
One thing to watch out for is phases. A lot of commonly used phrases go way back in human culture. If you want to use them you have to make sure that there is some cultural relevance to the for your world.
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I dont have a big problem with it. most of the time, this argument comes up when talking about swearing in the fantasy genre. Guys like Martin, Abercrombie, Bakker, Lynch, and Morgan are big users of our modern profanity in their fantasy settings. Is it wrong? Who am I to say. I personally think its fine, because we are not experts in the entire linguistic evolution of the imaginary world that the author has created. Who says that his people can't use this or that phrase? Last I checked we didn't grow up in the pages of that world, so it's not our place to decide if it is ok or not.
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Actually our profane words are quite old. The F word, for example, dates from before 1500 in English and even before that in Scandinavian.
Profanity was certainly not used in polite society for centuries (especially around women), but then at least Martin's society is extremely far from polite—only girls younger than age 12 have any illusions about chivalry and whatnot. Also, part of what made the words impolite is that they came from Anglo-Saxon and earlier rather than coming from Norman French, and high society was descended from the Normans. If the world you're building doesn't have the equivalent of a Norman invasion, profane words would be seen in a different light.
I do think it's important for language not to be anachronistic, but it's possible to go too far. Like, if you try to write without using any words with Latin or Greek roots because your universe's history doesn't have anything that corresponds to ancient Greece or the Roman empire, you'll be left with a very poor vocabulary pool indeed. English is the language we're writing and reading in, and it is what it is.
But if your world is sheathed in darkness and there are no stars at night, someone should not be called a rockstar or a football star. The idiom wouldn't exist in that world.
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My opinion(Short Version): As long as it's not anachronism (or anatopism), it's OK.
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Well, how do you decide if it's anachronism or anatopism?
My point being that a lot of things people think are anachronisms actually aren't, or things that you might think are fine could be argued to be anachronistic depending how picky you are.
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Ookla is an anachronism.
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Burned!
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OK, I know what anachronism is, but I can't find a definition for anatopism…help please.
Ouch. You better ice that, Ooka.
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Wikipedia.
Otherwise you could do a morphological analysis. Anatopism is to anachronism as topology is to chronology.
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Otherwise you could do a morphological analysis. Anatopism is to anachronism as topology is to chronology.
*grumbles* last time I ask him for a definition.
jk ;)
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You know, I think it depends on how the author handles it. As long as you remember that language/speech is primarily for communication, and then keep in mind the ways of that particular culture, it should be ok. I guess what I'm saying is, language has a lot more behind it than just words- ideas, nuances of meaning, and tone of voice have a lot more to do with communication than just the words themselves. There are times when a curse word would be appropriate because the IDEA of "I'm incredibly angry/annoyed/frustrated/etc." is what you're trying to get across to your audience, and that's the cheapest, easiest, fastest way to do it. Likewise, there are times when it is not appropriate. You could also choose to have entirely different words take on bad connotations for the culture you're dealing with, but then you have to explain that, too.
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Modern language in Fantasy only bothers me when it's anachronistic either physically (Ookla's 'rockstar example) or culturally (pop culture phrases mostly).
I read most fantasy as though it were, essentially, a translation anyway. English words being used for the actual words of same or similar meaning.
Physically anachronistic words bother me less than culturally anachronistic ones, mostly because I gloss over them more easily.
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Which brings up an interesting question. There has always been 'pop-culture' and I'm willing to bet that included pop-culture phrasing. For example, at the court of Louis 14th I'm sure there were phrases in use that were very trendy with a lot of immediately contextual meaning. Those phrases, in the literature of the time had a very different meaning to contemporaries than they carry for us moderns. We don't 'get' them at all.
So, to be honest, in any fantasy world there would also be 'pop-culture.' Should that be expressed by modern pop-culturalisms? Should the author go to the trouble of creating a pop-culture from which to draw the trendy phrases his young socialites use? Or should the author just let all that go and write clean prose for every character?
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Actually our profane words are quite old. The F word, for example, dates from before 1500 in English and even before that in Scandinavian.
Profanity was certainly not used in polite society for centuries (especially around women), but then at least Martin's society is extremely far from polite—only girls younger than age 12 have any illusions about chivalry and whatnot. Also, part of what made the words impolite is that they came from Anglo-Saxon and earlier rather than coming from Norman French, and high society was descended from the Normans. If the world you're building doesn't have the equivalent of a Norman invasion, profane words would be seen in a different light.
I do think it's important for language not to be anachronistic, but it's possible to go too far. Like, if you try to write without using any words with Latin or Greek roots because your universe's history doesn't have anything that corresponds to ancient Greece or the Roman empire, you'll be left with a very poor vocabulary pool indeed. English is the language we're writing and reading in, and it is what it is.
But if your world is sheathed in darkness and there are no stars at night, someone should not be called a rockstar or a football star. The idiom wouldn't exist in that world.
This is why it is perfectly rational for GRR Martian to use an F word: because his most of his society is based on medieval century England/Europe.
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and yet it is surprising how many people say it doesn't fit the story. drives me crazy...
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I have found that most people who say it doesn't fit the story simply don't want to hear the F-word in their heads and use its supposed anachronism as a convenient reason that doesn't imply that they're prudes.
I personally have nothing against prudes and think that more of them should own up and be proud of their prudishness. The world needs more prudes and more people who will stand up and be counted for their beliefs. Two for the price of one on this issue.
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I for one prefer reading books that don't have a lot of profanity because I don't like to hear a lot of profanity.
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Actually, they're not always prudes. Some of my classmates, in a recent workshop, objected to the F-word in my fantasy work for the same or similar reasons. They're totally not people who would hesitate to use the F-word in their own works.
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I for one prefer reading books that don't have a lot of profanity.
It depends on the work for me. In the Harry Dresden novels the author is so inconsistent with cussing that there isn’t a real feel for if it fits or not. In some novels he uses the F word a number of times, in others he won't write any.
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Otherwise you could do a morphological analysis. Anatopism is to anachronism as topology is to chronology.
It's in the wrong place? It's the wrong shape?
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Umm…PB? Isn't he your brother? Can't you just, like…ask him?
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She just did ask me, right in the post before yours. We live 1121 miles apart, you know.
Yes, in the wrong place.
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~금강산도 식후경~
Wait, you know Korean?
I'm a little unfamiliar with the f-word's history, but it has something to do with ice cream cake, right?
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Oh…I was thinking like using a phone…but whatever.
Well that's random. Thanks.
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I've always liked it when author's take the time to come up with words and phrases unique to their setting. Brandon Sanderson I think does a good job with this. Lord Ruler! Shattered Glass! Merciful Domi!
I even noticed in the Harry Potter books that they'll use "Merlin's Beard" as an expletive.
I just tend to find it more interesting when an author does that. I agree that, in some cases, using modern terms is not a big deal, but I would much prefer to see how creative an author can get in developing his world enough to give us some bits of their common phrases and slang.
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I ditto what Dangerbutton said. Aside from being more interesting, it also makes the books more appropriate for younger people…not that that would be a problem for most of you. :-\
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We live 1121 miles apart, you know.
That's... alarmingly specific.
Wait, you know Korean?
보시다시피. ;D (Actually I have "금강산도 식후경" in vinyl wall words (http://wedoitthehardway.blogspot.com/2007/05/wall-words.html) over my kitchen window.)
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보시다시피. ;D (Actually I have "금강산도 식후경" in vinyl wall words (http://wedoitthehardway.blogspot.com/2007/05/wall-words.html) over my kitchen window.)
My brother that I live with is fluent in Korean, so I know just a tiny bit. Most of what I know is from Korean popular music so I can sing along :P. I can't read at all, but I'm trying to learn to read and speak better. Some day I would like to live in Korea for a few months and see how I like it. Who knows, maybe it will replace my plans for living in Switzerland. :D
I've always liked it when author's take the time to come up with words and phrases unique to their setting. Brandon Sanderson I think does a good job with this. Lord Ruler! Shattered Glass! Merciful Domi!
I even noticed in the Harry Potter books that they'll use "Merlin's Beard" as an expletive.
I just tend to find it more interesting when an author does that. I agree that, in some cases, using modern terms is not a big deal, but I would much prefer to see how creative an author can get in developing his world enough to give us some bits of their common phrases and slang.
Seconded all around. One exception: "Lord Ruler" sounded a little strange to me (I don't think people would curse using a living person's name...). I'd have expected something more like "Lost Gods". "Merlin's Beard" was an awesome expletive in Harry Potter. "Mothers Milk" from WoT was particularly entertaining as well, though possibly because it's used almost exclusively by Brigitte (and Elayne when she's going through her potty mouth stage).
Recommended viewing: Potter Puppet Pals in "Wizard Swears" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqTHmzMk0Cw)
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Does Elayne ever leave her potty-mouth stage?
Sanderson's "Lord Ruler" was actually one of the made-up expletives I didn't have a problem with. I'm not talking about Sanderson's work in particular here, but often the made-up expletives kind of bug me; I think it's just a bit hard to come up with something that doesn't sound lame. The reason "Lord Ruler" worked for me as an expletive is that it really goes to show just how the people of the Mistborn world regard the Lord Ruler; not just a king, but a god.
While it's always nice to see aspects of an imagined world's culture shown off in whatever aspects you can manage it, swearing included, there's only so much world-building that I'm willing to sit through for the sake of a swear word. Basically I'll let an author get away with made up swearwords if they have some context that isn't just there for context's sake.
Books that mix real curse words with invented ones end up making their invented swear words look kind of weird.
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Does Elayne ever leave her potty-mouth stage?
Sanderson's "Lord Ruler" was actually one of the made-up expletives I didn't have a problem with. I'm not talking about Sanderson's work in particular here, but often the made-up expletives kind of bug me; I think it's just a bit hard to come up with something that doesn't sound lame. The reason "Lord Ruler" worked for me as an expletive is that it really goes to show just how the people of the Mistborn world regard the Lord Ruler; not just a king, but a god.
I agree. About ninty persent of the made up swears just make me roll my eyes. Also, "Lord Ruler" was actually one of the ones I liked the least. It felt so corny. But Sanderson countered that by using a d@#$ every once in awhile.
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I didn't particularly like "Lord Ruler" but I thought it worked because it had some similarity to something in our own world. "Oh, Lawd!" :P
I think Merlin's beard worked well in Harry Potter because...well, it just has that feel of everything being slightly ridiculous in the Wizarding world. Remember that man in book four who wore a bikini to the massive Quidditch tournament? :P And with names like Dumbledore and Hogwarts.
In the Dresden files...I don't think it works so well. I've gotten up through book three, which is particularly dark, and I don't really think many of the made-up swears he uses fit.
What do you guys think about using modern phrases like "d*mn straight" or something like "you are screwed"? That was more along the lines of what I meant, rather than just what to use for swears in a fantasy setting. There was a topic created a month or two back along those lines already. http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6434.0 (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6434.0)
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I agree; the Merlin's Beard oath worked fine because the whole Wizarding world of Harry Potter was presented as kind of gimmicky.
In terms of modern slang and such... I think Ookla nailed it, really. If you're going to use slang, make sure it's not referencing something that doesn't exist in your imagined setting. More generic stuff ("d*** straight", "you're screwed", etc) I'm personally fine with... at least to a point. Having it show up every now and again shouldn't be much of a problem, at least I don't think so. It's just when you start saturating your stuff with it that people start to notice.
(Let's keep those opinions flying, guys! Raethe has an essay she doesn't want to write tonight.)
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"Screwed" could qualify as an anachronism. Using "screw" like that started some time after screws started to be used in Europe. I'd imagine that the term's slang usage increased as use of actual screws became more common. My super-quick research indicates that using "screw" as slang began in the 16-1700s, but AFAIK it didn't show up often until the late 19th century (soon after screws became readily available to the public). If your society uses screws and has for a while, it's totally cool to use the term as slang.
"D*** straight" is fine to me. I can't see many people using it in fantasy, though Zelazny did use similar phrases in the Amber series. His character was from mid 20th century America :P. Your setting (if we're talking about Crystalheart here) is gritty enough that I can see people talking like that. I'm guessing that I haven't seen it often because my experience with the genre has been primarily in older high fantasy. The term consists of two pretty common and old words, so I'm not going to even try to find history for it. "Straight" has been used in tons of different ways for ages and people have sworn for just as long, so it seems to me a distinct possibility that even someone from 10th century England used the phrase.
I'm not sure if it's practical to research every slang term, but if you get a comment about it make sure to double-check the term's history. Obviously as writers we don't have the time to double-check the history of every word we use. Well, maybe we do, but I wouldn't like to spend all of my time "checking" (another anachronism) my writing.
An interesting side note: I found that "putting your X on the line" is related to the use of X as a symbol for a kiss, dating back to the Roman Empire. Crazy times.
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It can be a story killer. Nothing is quite as jarring as reading a decent mystical fantasy set in a rustic pre-techno environment only to have the characters saying something that was spouted by Hanna Montana last week. That's part of the theme with the Xanth novels. But if Rigney or Martin did that, it would collapse the whole suspension of disbelief that's critical to the story.
Like all rules there are exceptions... "The Compleat Complete Enchanter" comes to mind. The amber series... Context is King!