Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Kelsier on March 15, 2008, 04:51:39 AM
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There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding Elend’s transformation near the end of Mistborn II. Some people think Elend was already a Mistborn—that the stabbing of the mist spirit was the traumatic event which caused him to Snap. These people believe that the metal Vin washed down his throat was simply pewter. Others, however, believe that the metal Vin washed down his throat was what caused him to become a Mistborn in the first place, while the pewter—which Elend burned in order to withstand his wounds—came from the vial of metals Vin used to wash the metal down.
I don’t know if this has already been pointed out, but Vin herself settles this confusion in the Epilogue of Mistborn II. Below is a snippet of her final conversation with Elend on the wall, after he’d become an Allomancer at the Well of Ascension.
“I’m an Allomancer,” Elend said.
[Vin] nodded.
“Mistborn, apparently,” he continued.
“I think . . . we know where they came from, now,” Vin said. “The first Allomancers.”
Vin speaks here of Allomancy’s origins, and I think we can easily draw from this that the metal Elend ingested was what turned him into a Mistborn.
Anyway, I apologize if this has already been discussed. I just wanted to put this out there and hopefully clear up any misconceptions.
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I'm sorry for not posting in this topic sooner! Usually I'm good about these things.
I agree with you now--that the metal creates Mistborn.
In fact, it is rather interesting... Inquisitors are created through Hemalurgy... and Allomancers are also created! It brings a nice dichotomy to them like one which is talked about in the Hemalurgy thread.
Ooooh, you evil genius. You just gave me an awesome idea! Allomancy is a created magic! The Lord Ruler, perhaps, just gives Steel Inquisitors that metal which grants them the power of a Mistborn! That's fantastic, since that little key fact has never been discussed before.
Genius, man, genius.
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Maybe it means Feruchemy is created, as well. Maybe there is some secret way to gain that power. I have to disagree with the magic bead being given to Inquisitors. I have a feeling that he wouldn't even let them know where the Well was, which means they didn't have any additional beads to give to all those new Inquisitors they made at Seran.
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That's one thing I'm still trying to puzzle out, I'm pretty sure the Inquisitors gain their power from the metal, but I don't think the Lord Ruler would bring them down to the well, there were lots of broken discs where that metal used to be so that means it could have been removed, but many of those probably would have gone to make the original allomancers. Maybe some was stored at the conventical of seran. OR maybe, the new Inquisitors have no allomantical abilities, and that's why they were dragging off the bodies of the keepers, for some otehr sacrifice thing, giving the new inquisitors feruchemical powers for their Hemalurgy to augment. I'm pretty sure Hemalurgy isn't much on it's own, it just augments other abilities, which is why all the old inquisitors are mistborn too. Since they have no more magic metal, they'd want to make keeper inquisitors instead. That's my theory anyway.
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A couple things. First of all, Marsh wasn't Mistborn, he was just a Misting before the Inquisitors made him one of them. As for the creation of Inquisitors, it is hard to make a guess as to exactly what it entails. However, there are a couple points that haven't been mentioned. First of all, right before the Lord Ruler killed Kelsier in the first book, he pointed out that the Inquisitors are "very hard to replace." Second of all, when Marsh talks about the process of creating Inquisitors, he says that it is "messy." Based on all of the scenes of sacrifice that have been associated with Inquisitors, I think that it is safe to say that Inquisitors can't just be created by using metals, there is something much more sinister involved. And third, something I just noticed, Marsh said that Inquisitors have 11 spikes. So, when I look at that, and at "very hard to replace," it gives me a couple ideas. There are, in total, 16 metals, including the two that we haven't seen yet. The two that are unknown are theorized to be able to give or take away allomantic power. Duralumin and Aluminum both directly alter other allomantic metals. So, in theory, anybody who can use the other allomantic metals can use these. Or, perhaps Inquisitors can't use them. We haven't really seen. However, that leaves 12 remaining metals. Marsh already had skill with one allomantic metal. So, theoretically, each spike grants one allomantic power. If this is the case, then it would make sense that the spikes would be made of each of the allomantic metals. That would explain a lot. For example, since we know that Inquisitors do, in fact, die, it would help to explain where the Lord Ruler's atium cache went. If he had to use a railroad-spike-sized portion of atium to create each individual Inquisitor, that could take up a fair amount of atium. Or, perhaps all of the Inquisitor's spikes are made of atium for some reason, in which case, it explains it even more. It would explain "very hard to replace" certainly, as well as the atium shortage. However, I think that there is a lot about Hemalurgy that we still aren't seeing.
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That's been touched upon before, but nice thoughts! When I said inquisitors are mistborn I was referring to the fact that they have all the powers of a mistborn after they become inquisitors, I know that marsh was only a seeker before.
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In my comment I wasn't suggesting that eating the metal was the only things it takes to make an Inquisitor. Of course, creating Inquisitors with Hemalurgy requires blood sacrifice (that's one of the few things we actually know about Hemalurgy, in fact). I was merely saying that perhaps the Hemalurgy has absolutely no influence on why the Inquisitors gained Mistborn abilites--instead, they just could have gotten the powers from the 15th metal.
Independent events is all I'm saying.
Archon, I think you would enjoy taking a look at the Hemalurgy thread. (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5745.0)
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Another point on the Hard to replace scenario. What if, in order for maximum power, each sacrifice had to be a Misting? Infusing that ability into the associated metal (for example, a smoker is killed and a copper spike is infused witht he power, then inserted into the body). A regular person could be used, but it would be far less potent, like an allomancer burning an impure metal. This would mean that the new Inquisitors are far less powerful than before, as they used Skaa slaves who most likely were not Mistings. The person that was found dead where Kelsier and Vin were supposed to meet Marsh in book 1 was most likely another misting Obligator who was working with Marsh at that post. If you remember, the Lord Ruler had stations set up throughout the city in order to help control it: a Soother and Rioter to control emotions, a Seeker to look for Skaa Allomancers, and a Smoker to hide what they were doing.
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I think there was just a soother, they weren't controlling emotions, they couldn't see what the skaa were feeling from inside, they were just sending out a mass soothing, to keep them depressed. Interesting theory about the making of inquisitors. I think that's one possible whole in my skaa blood theory, is I don't think the lord ruler wouldn' think anything about killing a skaa, but maybe only some skaa have the amplification ability, and they are hard to find. I'm sure that there must be more to who are skaa and who are noble than who the lord ruler's supporters were, that excuse always seems a hollow one to me, and the way the lord ruler restricts interbreeding, there has to be something ther, I know it.
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Maybe that's why Inquisitors hunt Skaa Mistings—they want to use them to make new brethren.
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It would certainly be easier to kill a Skaa than a nobleman, particularly an acolyte to the Ministry.
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Ya, and remember how people who misuse allomancy are executed? They are hung with a hook through their throat, maybe that's significant.
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I must have missed something again... but what made Vin stuff that metal down Elends mouth in the first place?
Did she know what would happend? otherwise it's just doesn't make sence...she might as well have feed him some stones...eating metal as a none minsting/mistborn is just dangeroes...
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She did it because the Mist Spirit told her to (basically). But yes, she had no idea what the metal would do.
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Seeing as Elend was going to die anyway, I'm sure she would have fed him stones if she thought it would help. The funny thing is, had she not given him her vial of metals to wash down the Magic Bead, he wouldn't have had any pewter to burn and still would have died. Sometimes luck is as important as skill.
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When Vin didn't know she was a Mistborn, when she was still getting beaten by her brother or Camon, she was already burning pewter. I read... where ?... that there was traces of metal in the water that was ingested and it had to be her unknown source. However, in the case of Elend, he certainly needed more than traces, I'd say.
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Yes, that's ture, but you're right he would have had traces, but I agree with you, Elend's wound was serious, he needed the vial. Vin barely had enought pewter to sustain a punch to the face, Elend was slashed open.
Sorry, this is a bit off topic, but I wonder where the next book will start. Will it be another year in the future, or right after Elend becomes mistborn. I wonder... I bet it begins with a training session though.
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Yes, that's ture, but you're right he would have had traces, but I agree with you, Elend's wound was serious, he needed the vial. Vin barely had enought pewter to sustain a punch to the face, Elend was slashed open.
Sorry, this is a bit off topic, but I wonder where the next book will start. Will it be another year in the future, or right after Elend becomes mistborn. I wonder... I bet it begins with a training session though.
It's possible, but I doubt it would be as in-depth as the ones in MB1. The stuff tends to be quite repetitive after a while, and we want him to focus on all these thousands of questions in the novel, not endless rehashed, no?
(Not that a little bit of rehash is bad, just as long it isn't overboard)
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I can just picture it, Vin and Elend Sparring in the mists, when screams echo out, and they rush off to find the mist's latest victim.
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Blah! :) The interrupted training session is so book 1! The book never mentions that Vin actually burns pewter before she is discovered by Kelsier, but it must have been true. Remember though that pewter burns very fast, so the trace elements would have been used up really quickly; I doubt there would be enough to heal a pimple.
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It does actually, when kelsier is teaching her allomancy, when she burns pewter, she says she's used this metal before.
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Good catch. It still wasn't much help at the time though, I imagine.
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You are right again, when Camon is beatin Vin before Keslier intervenes, her "inner strength," fails her very quickly.
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I don't know if this has been covered before or not. However, how exactly does the body and the chemicals within the body "burn metals" so that an Allomancer or MistBorn may use Allomancy?
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I touched upon it right here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5782.0).
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Are you going to ask for that post to be published next, Chaos? ::) That is a good question. I don't believe the explanations have gone to that level of detail. All we know is that you are either born with the ability, or you can gain it by swallowing the magic well bead.
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I don't know if this has been covered before or not. However, how exactly does the body and the chemicals within the body "burn metals" so that an Allomancer or MistBorn may use Allomancy?
Magic.
No, seriously. This is a fantasy book, after all!
Though I'm not exactly saying that Chaos2651 is wrong in the thread he links. I'm not sure if that was the question you were asking, though.
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Obviously, they are magical mists. Or something like that...
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I touched upon it right here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5782.0).
That OP of yours was interesting, but after reading through that thread, I got more questions than answers. I really do enjoy the Mistborn series, and I am almost finished with WoA, with just about 80 pages left to read. Also, I enjoy the rules and systems of magic that Brandon Sanderson has here in the books. Like Ookla the Mok said, we are dealing with Magic here, and I suppose we could just let that be the final fundamental answer to my question. However, given the detail with which Brandon Sanderson has supplied to his three systems of magic in Mistborn, I am really hoping that this very, very basic, and fundamental question concering just really How does an Allomancer or Mistborn burn metals? will be eventually answered either in Book 3, or perhaps in one of the books' annotations.
Thanks. :)
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I always find that my "final solutions" (no Himmler references, please) aren't very final at all. I just make them sound like they are very final.
In all reality, I don't really know what I'm talking about. I could be right, I could be wrong, and I could be totally seeing too far into this.
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I am almost finished with WoA, with just about 80 pages left to read.
If you haven't read the last 80 pages, you really should not be reading most of the threads here. Almost all the speculative threads hinge on something revealed in the last 80 pages.
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I am fully aware that if I read something here, that there is a good chance of a spoiler from WoA being revealed. I don't mind. :)
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You're cheating yourself out of the proper reading experience.
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WELL, since I have well over 800 novels in my collection, and I have been reading sci-fi, fantasy, and other forms of fiction for well over 30 years, I shall, instead of arguing with you, simply choose to disagree agreeably, and please ask that you do not tell me what I am or am not doing with my own reading experiences.
Thank you.
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Well, I won't tell you again, since once is enough. However, I will certainly not take it back because I believe it very strongly.
But you are of course free to do whatever you want with whatever book you choose to pick up. (Er, at least, according to copyright and fair use.)
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So, lets talk about the origins of allomancy, and just how does an allomancer actually burn the metals in their stomachs, .. shall we? :)
Thank you.
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I am sorry, but the only thing we know is from one of Vin's quote who said that she did not know how she was burning metal and that the important thing to her was simply that she could.
Actually, I do not believe we can find out how all magic systems works in all of the fantasy books. Why should we bring an imaginative world to our level ? You could tell us what you think of its workings, but I doubt it will even be answered in MB3. But do try, if you please.
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Only EUOL knows for sure, and he hasn't told us yet. Until then, something that specific, which has little bearing on the story, probably won't come out in the books, especially if you consider it is all in first person POV, and the characters don't know how it works either. We can guess all day, but this is something EUOL will have to tell us, if he so chooses.
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"burn" is also a figurative term. They could easily have used another term like "drain" or whatnot. Doesn't Vin talk of the metals inside her as "reservoirs"? (I'm thinking of the part where Sazed gave her feruchemical store to swallow.)
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I am also curious to know if the metals even need to be in the stomach. Could they technically still be in your mouth. How about the bloodstream?
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The "origins" of Allomancy seems like a question that has two parts. When & How.
The How part does seem to be addressed at the end of WOA, with the quote posted earlier by Vin.
However, it seems like Allomancy existed before that. Does anyone remember any references about Alendi burning metals?
The connection that made me think about the "When" was Vin and Alendi. They both felt the thumping. There does seem to be some "interesting" and "abnormal" effects when it comes to vin and sensing Allomancy, however, the fact remains that she only hears the thumping (I think) when burning bronze.
If that's the case, it seems like Alendi would of been burning bronze as well, meaning that Allomancy existed before that point.
I'd have to reread WoA and see if there is evidence for this. I seem to recall at least one point where she turned on bronze and felt the thumping, but it also wouldn't suprise me if Vin had bronze on pretty much all the time. If that was the case, than maybe she didn't need to be burning it to hear the thumping, it's just that she happened to be doing so.
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"burn" is also a figurative term. They could easily have used another term like "drain" or whatnot. Doesn't Vin talk of the metals inside her as "reservoirs"? (I'm thinking of the part where Sazed gave her feruchemical store to swallow.)
In Final Empire, I remember when Kelsier gave a vial of metals to Vin for the first time, and she swallowed them, she described it as feeling a reservoir of power that seemed to awaken within herself, or something like that. I don't remember if Kelsier or any of the other more experienced Allomancers have ever described how they "burn metals" but its just something that they simply do. That is why I asked the question wondering if there were any answers or theories about just actually how do the Allomancers burn metals.
I am also curious to know if the metals even need to be in the stomach. Could they technically still be in your mouth. How about the bloodstream
So far, I only remember an Allomancer burning or using the metals if they were already in their stomach, not simply in the mouth or bloostream. Thats why, in my opinion, they drink down the metal beads in a vial of water or another type of liquid, so that the metal can quickly get down into the stomach. But this brings up another question of mine.
After drinking a vial of metals, how quickly do the metals travel down the throat and into a body's stomach so that they can be "burned" or as Ookla also suggested, "drained."
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So far, I only remember an Allomancer burning or using the metals if they were already in their stomach, not simply in the mouth or bloostream. Thats why, in my opinion, they drink down the metal beads in a vial of water or another type of liquid, so that the metal can quickly get down into the stomach. But this brings up another question of mine.
After drinking a vial of metals, how quickly do the metals travel down the throat and into a body's stomach so that they can be "burned" or as Ookla also suggested, "drained."
I think it's pretty much instant as soon as they put the metal in their mouth and swallow. I think there is plenty of examples of this such as after Vin burns Duralumin and another metal, using it up, and then downs a vial and uses the metal they just used up instantly.
I'm pretty sure Vin does this specifically in WoA when she does a duralumin fueled Push to launch herself off the wall out to rescue Breeze. She was then out of steel having just used it, but drinks a vial in mid air, drops a coin, and slows her decent using the Steel she just swallowed moments before.
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Are there other examples of Allomancers getting instant usage out of a just swallowed vial of metals? Or is Vin able to do this because of how powerful she is?
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Pretty sure a metal is available for any allomancer as soon as they swallow, but I don't have specific references. How long it takes things to move down the esophagus is not necessarily widespread knowledge in this culture, so they may speak of things being in their stomach as soon as they're swallowed.
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Alright, Ookla.
Thank you. :)
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Pretty sure a metal is available for any allomancer as soon as they swallow, but I don't have specific references. How long it takes things to move down the esophagus is not necessarily widespread knowledge in this culture, so they may speak of things being in their stomach as soon as they're swallowed.
Yeah. I can't think of any specific examples, but I'm pretty sure there are multiple fights where Kell runs out of some metal midway through and downs another vial and then uses that metal right away.
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As soon as Elend takes the metal vial from Vin he starts to burn pewter.
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The same thing occurs with Vin after Sazed rescues her from Kredik Shaw (the first time). She isn't even conscious but can still burn the metal instinctively, like breathing. Oh, and Phaz, Vin feels the well's pulsing even when she is not burning bronze. However, the earring she wears is bronze. Did you notice that the only time she could draw on the mists was when it was ripped out of her ear? There are other threads about that theory, however.
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OK, this is a vision I have of how allomancy started, it's pretty random, but it just sort of came to me, and I've bee nthinking about it for a while.
It is widly assumed (except of course by darxbane) that feruchemy was around before both allomancy and hemalurgy, which would make feruchemy a sort of old magic. What if the ancient Terris scholars learned to store things in metals from ruin and preservation themselves. What if those beads of metal that give Elend the powers of a mistborn, and gave the first allomancer their powers are feryuchmical like storages of the power of Ruin and/or Preservation? there's some holes in the theory of course, how other people can access the power of ruin and preservation, but perhaps their power works differently, that would mean all the magics, in some way stem from these two beings, making them the source of all the supernatural things in the book?
Ok, I'm ready, let's hear your thoughts ;D
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OK, this is a vision I have of how allomancy started, it's pretty random, but it just sort of came to me, and I've bee nthinking about it for a while.
It is widly assumed (except of course by darxbane) that feruchemy was around before both allomancy and hemalurgy, which would make feruchemy a sort of old magic. What if the ancient Terris scholars learned to store things in metals from ruin and preservation themselves. What if those beads of metal that give Elend the powers of a mistborn, and gave the first allomancer their powers are feryuchmical like storages of the power of Ruin and/or Preservation? there's some holes in the theory of course, how other people can access the power of ruin and preservation, but perhaps their power works differently, that would mean all the magics, in some way stem from these two beings, making them the source of all the supernatural things in the book?
Ok, I'm ready, let's hear your thoughts ;D
That is not a bad theory, to be honest. Of course, it still runs into the Partum-paradox, that you can't actually "burn" the metal if you don't have the ability to burn it in the first place. Replacing it with a Feruchemy reference doesn't help, because Elend is no Feruchemist. He wouldn't have the ability to tap the metalmind in the first place.
Plus, to store something Feruchemically, you need to have it in the first place. You can't store speed unless you have speed. You couldn't store Allomancy if you didn't already have it.
I think I like my mist-pulling theory better.
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I said there were holes, and obviously Ruin's and Preservations powers do work differently than other peoples, , perhaps in digestive juices, the storage of power breaks down, releasing the power into the body of the individual, and unlocks the abilities within, also if my theory was right, it would mean that anyone can access storages made byt Ruin and Preservation. And Feruchemy wouldn't necessarily be the same power as they had, the spirits, or whatever they are, have power far beyond the conventional magic systems, but myabe it was inspired by Ruin and Preservation: who are key players in the lost religion of the Terris people. ;)