Author Topic: Adios Iraq  (Read 12982 times)

Entsuropi

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2003, 06:41:27 AM »

Anyone wanna tell me where he got that from?

And, these two items nicely summarise the latest Anti-war movement "arguments".

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"Now their lives are open-ended and uncertain! At least under the stability of Saddam they knew tomorrow would always suck."


If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2003, 06:45:08 AM »
I don't get the third one of the billboards about the kids belonging in jail
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2003, 01:33:43 PM »
Wait. Are we talking about the stability of dying of dehydration or from looting in Basra?

House of Mustard

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2003, 03:06:19 PM »
I find your selectivity in news watching extremely humorous, Ehlers.  Do you just turn on the TV for two minutes at a time and, by zany conincidence, only see the negative stories?  Or, perhaps, do you simply to refuse to believe that anything good can come from this (even though much proven good already has)?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2003, 03:06:44 PM by House_of_Mustard »
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Mr_Pleasington

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2003, 03:25:06 PM »
Actually, just about all I ever see on TV is the negative stories.  I think the liberal bias in media has become overtly apparent in the war.

It's rare to find a positive story on any of hte news networks except for Fox News...which is heavily conservatively biased.

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2003, 03:54:03 PM »
Yes, you also have an interesting way of approaching my comments and the news. "Proven good" yes, I agree Hussein was evil and I'm glad he's being pushed out of the picture, but you're ignoring negative things. I still disagree with why we went. I disagree with the belittling that's been done about war protesters. And I disagree with the villification of any party that disagreed with the war. Please don't accuse me of coloring the facts when I'm only doing what you're doing but reaching a different conclusion. Thanks for noticing me though.

However, I don't think Mr. Pleasington is watching ANY CNN. It's the only thing on here at work. And while they try to throw in some negative things, they're talking an awful lot about how great everything is.

House of Mustard

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2003, 05:11:06 PM »
First, I'm happy to see that you are attributing opposition to the war to a 'party'.  All this time I'd heard that the opposition was because the war was bad, not because a certain party had established a policy against it.  I guess this is political after all.

But the real issue:

I'm not ignoring the bad things, I just think you're exaggerating them.  You complain about looting and dehydration, but do you think that the Iraqis are in a worse state now than they were a month ago?  That really is the only important question here.  You can complain about  the reasons we went in all you want (although nobody cares because we're in and it's almost over), but there is no question (none - not even one) that the Iraqi people are in a better state now than they have been for decades.

So boo hoo.  There's looting.  That may be bad, but it certainly not as bad as the chemical baths and electrocution chambers that have been found BY THE HUNDREDS in the Baghdad prisons.  The military is already organizing security to stop the looting.

And as far as dying of dehydration goes, you apparently forget the thousands that have been starving to death every year under Saddam.  The US is bringing aid, but they've been slowed because of Iraqi mines and resistance.  (And please don't say that the Iraqis starving was the US's fault - we put sanctions on them because they haven't been following the UN rules.  Even if he didn't want to follow those rules, Saddam has a bucket of money he could use to spread the food around.  Seems he bought a lot of palaces instead).

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Please don't accuse me of coloring the facts when I'm only doing what you're doing but reaching a different conclusion. Thanks for noticing me though.


Which facts am I coloring?  Am I understating the vileness of looting?  Or am I exagerrating the vileness of torture chambers, war crimes, executing POWs, and weapons of mass destruction?  As I said in a previous post (which you conveniently never responded to) - blind opposition is just as bad as blind support.  
« Last Edit: April 10, 2003, 05:14:29 PM by House_of_Mustard »
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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2003, 05:22:27 PM »
I didn'tn respond to it because you were doing what you're doing now. In short, being a bit of an ass.

"party" doesn't necessarily refer to a gathering for celebration NOR does it necessarily refer to a political group organized within a nation for achieving election of members of their group. It refers to any like minded group, and for that matter, it can refer to an individual in this context.

I never said you were coloring facts. I said I wasn't. Please read more carefully before taking insult at what I said.

As for saying there's "no question" I find that to be a bit naive. I honestly don't think there will be a lot of stability in Iraq for many years (woah! just like most other governments where we've worked to change regimes!). While we're there AND after we leave.

But obviously I can't talk about this with you because you don't think that ANY argument that doesn't point directly to what you want to conclude is remotely worth considering or viable. So I'll go back to not responding to these threads, since they seem to show we can't respect each other's views. I'd rather not speak up about my opinion than me flamed for disagreeing with someone who won't listen anyway.

House of Mustard

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2003, 05:36:20 PM »
On March 17th, 2003, SaintEhlers wrote:
Quote
Sorry if this sounds rude, but, then you really shouldn't have said anything at all. If you can really prove that Iraq a) has WMDs, or b) has been supporting terrorists, then prove it. Document your sources. Show me how that conclusion has been drawn. If you don't want to bother, than don't tell me i'm not worth your time (especially if you ARE going to take time to say that). So yeah, I guess I'm not sorry if that sounds rude, because I wasn't the first.


I apologize if it appeared like I was flaming you.  I try not to make personal comments or digs in my posts, but I may have stepped over the line.

On the other hand, do you want to actually discuss facts or not?  I'm sorry if it appeared like I was belittling you.  I was actually trying to make a point, based on facts, and drawing a conclusion.  Of course I was trying to prove you wrong - that's kind of the point of debate.  It wasn't meant as an insult.

If your comment about stability was actually (as I took it) a legitimate attempt at debate, then let's debate.  If it was, instead, just an opportunity to take a jab at those that support the war, then that seems to go against your well-laid out (see quote above) rules of argument.

I'm happy to lay aside the personal attacks if your willing to address the facts.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2003, 06:08:56 PM »
For starters, Mustard WAS making personal attacks--that's how he gets people to argue back when he's bored and wants to argue. Rest assured that he didn't mean any of it, and will probably just discuss issues now that he's got your attention.

And for Mustard...knock it off.

As for the war, in terms of immediate habitational concerns the Iraqis are, indeed, worse off today than they were one month ago (not counting the ones taking luxurious chemical baths one month ago, because I assume they're dead). The simple fact is that they used to have water and now they don't; they used to not have looting and now they do.

Before anybody flames me, however, the key point to my argument is this--in order to make them better off in the future, we kind of had to make their lives crappy for a while. In a matter of weeks or months they'll have water and police and such and be back to where they were before, but this time they won't have the ominous threat of tyrannical rule and corruption hovering over everything. I doubt they'll get a stable government right off the bat, but at least it won't be the kind that hides military targets inside of elementary schools.

I think it's kind of funny that so may people point to the conditions in Iraq--Basra especially--and talk about how bad they have it. Well duh: they live in a war zone. The coalition forces have taken some impressive measures (in my mind) to reduce collateral damage, but the whole point of the war is to make their futures better by ruining their present a bit.
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Spriggan

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2003, 07:23:37 PM »
I think you all need to watch this weeks South Park, It'll replay friday.  I think then you'll all be able to get along.

As for libral bias There's still plenty in print but on TV only MTV's coverage has been onsided very negative so much you'd think they were owned by Al-jezzera.  But CNN, MSNBC and Fox have been very pro-US.  The main thing that has not been getting enough coverage here is civilain casuaties.  Need to swtich to the BBC to get that (got to love digital cable).
But it's to bad that SE still dosen't think we should be in there when even the French have been changeing their mind.  But seeing what I saw yesterday with the Iraqis celbrating I feel vindicated that the US was right to go in  the WMD feels only secondary now.  In the long run their lives will be better, sure there's some unstability but at least they can live without halfthing to worry about Sadams goons killing them.  And SE you were wrong about that.
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I find it extemely unlikely that we'll be greeted whole-heartedly as liberators. According to the Washington Post, Most Iraqi ammo/firearms dealers are very low on supplies because the citizens of Baghdad are buying them up[\quote]

we've also found manysite that are posably Bio-weapon sites.  The've found a truck that appears to be a mobile lab.  And a site that is very radioactive and what the beleave to be weapons grade plutonium.  And who's leading them to these sites...The Iraqi people.
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House of Mustard

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2003, 11:11:10 AM »
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Spriggan

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #72 on: April 15, 2003, 12:16:57 AM »
hehe Sadams "love shack"
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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2003, 10:48:02 AM »
Not sure if I should put this in cool stuff on the internet or here
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Adios Iraq
« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2003, 02:54:47 PM »
All I know is that my friends in the Gulf will hopefully be coming home soon.  
War even when waged for the right reasons is never a good thing. It is a necessary evil. To act like it is glorious and right is to gloss over the awfulness of it. Yes awful men are out of power in Iraq, but many people on the winning and losing sides are dead. We should respect the sacrifice on both sides.
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