Author Topic: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks  (Read 7995 times)

Eric James Stone

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2006, 07:43:37 PM »
I'll believe Hollywood is sincere in caring about artistic integrity, and that the original work of art should not be altered to conform to the purchaser's taste, just as soon as directors start refusing to alter scripts, in order to protect the artistic vision of the screenwriter.
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FirstMateJack

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2006, 08:55:33 PM »
Quote
I'll believe Hollywood is sincere in caring about artistic integrity, and that the original work of art should not be altered to conform to the purchaser's taste, just as soon as directors start refusing to alter scripts, in order to protect the artistic vision of the screenwriter.


hahaha, best argument made thus far.


Anyway, the easier it becomes to access violence, porn, language, etc... the more those things prevail in society. Yes, society has always done, and always will push the envelopes of it's own verboten.

One example, or one leader can entirely change how an entire people feels about some subject.

I agree with E on the "facts of life" part. There is a difference between historical value and entertainment. The concentration camps made lampshades out of the skin of those they gased. I hope no one would feel this would be the best part of some movie they watched.



I think some of you are thinking I am for legislation that requires Hollywood to prevent making these movies, or that They cannot stop people from censoring them.

My only point, I said earlier, I don't care, they can make what they want; I am ranting on the fact that Hollywood does it, because I feel that it does have an effect on society.

I don't think that is an arguable point, that's all.   :)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 08:56:52 PM by FirstMateJack »
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Firemeboy

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2006, 01:52:42 AM »
I can see, and think I could argue, both sides of the issue.  The question I would pose is how does selling edited copies of a movie negatively affect those who want to see the regular version?  In other words, if there is a copy of Schindler's List, without all of the nudity, how does that affect my watching the original version?  I can't think of how I'm hurt if somebody else is watching an edited version.  

If I buy a CD, I might listen to songs out of order.  Or I might skip some songs because I don't like them.  Why should anybody care how I interact with the 'art' that I purchase.  I would be willing to bet that a lot of time is spent on 'ordering' the music.  

Of course I tend to allow for even further 'meddling' with artistic things.  I think those who take art and alter or 'remix' it can often give us new and sometimes refreshing insight.  Has anybody heard the Grey Album?  Good stuff, if you're into that kind of thing.  Or what about Fat Boy Slim?  Find “Brimful of Asha” regular version, and then listen to Fat Boy Slim's version.  I'm sure some might prefer the original, but it was Slim's version that shot the song to the top of the charts.  Slim is an example of somebody who takes artists' work, fiddles around with it, and gives it a new twist.  

Of course this isn't what Clean Flix is doing, they are just 'sanitizing it'.  But I guess I tend to be more open to people taking existing material, remixing it, and allowing others to experience it in a different way.  If people want to watch a movie without any of the violence or the nudity, let them do it.  It doesn't affect my experience.  

Maybe tomorrow I'll argue the flip side of the issue, and call myself a friggin' moron.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 01:53:16 AM by Firemeboy »
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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2006, 09:56:04 AM »
contracts and licenses. CleanFlicks did *not* have permission to sell altered copies of the movie. I've not, nor has anyone, argued the extreme position Fell accused. You can hide behind the word "generalization" but that's not accurate when it in no way represents the feelings presented.

I'm not saying a movie can never be altered. I'm saying it cannot be physically altered except with the copyright holder's permission.

Parker

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2006, 12:53:16 PM »
Right, E.  Mashups and the like are distributed free over the internet, and they still often get the old cease and disist order.  If one of the mashup artists were to start his own company and try to seriously profit off his work, I'm pretty sure the result would be a big old lawsuit.

If artists choose to let their work be altered, fine.  Listening to a CD in a different play order doesn't count.  Fastforwarding through a movie doesn't count, nor does closing one's eyes.  None of these physically alters the content.  What Cleanflicks does is different, in my mind.

Spriggan

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2006, 12:58:13 PM »
Funny FMB brought up the Grey Album, more or less the same situation, the mixer got in huge trouble for that because he didn't have the rights to sell remixes of the Beatles or the other artists he stoled from.
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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2006, 01:40:57 PM »
Quote
I'm not saying a movie can never be altered. I'm saying it cannot be physically altered except with the copyright holder's permission.


Does this mean you're saying that cleaning only equals censorship when it is done without permission?
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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2006, 01:44:22 PM »
I don't know why that would be such an absurd conclusion, but I don't agree with that. It's still censorship, it's just permitted censorship

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2006, 01:48:55 PM »
Quote


Does this mean you're saying that cleaning only equals censorship when it is done without permission?


Censorship only happens when the government is involved, if it's a person or privet entity that edits something (not for profit) it's not censoring.

Remember freedom of speech only applies to the government, we could restrict what you say all we want on this forum and no one would have a legal ground to stand on.
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Firemeboy

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2006, 06:55:08 PM »
Quote
Funny FMB brought up the Grey Album, more or less the same situation, the mixer got in huge trouble for that because he didn't have the rights to sell remixes of the Beatles or the other artists he stoled from.


Sure DJ Danger Mouse got in trouble.  Because it was illegal.  In my opinion it wasn't wrong, it was only illegal.  A lot of people praised the artistic value of that 'illegal' piece of work.  I don't understand why it's legal for an artist to paint a picture of Mickey Mouse or a campbell soup can, and it's art, but a muscian can't remix a few bars of another artist's music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grey_Album

I'm not defending Clean Flicks, I was only posing a few questions.  Clean Flicks was breaking the law.  However, I think there is an important clarification.  

Quote
I'm not saying a movie can never be altered. I'm saying it cannot be physically altered except with the copyright holder's permission.


I'm not sure if this is correct.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but everything I've read said that Clean Flicks is in trouble not for altering their movies, but for copying movies.  It is not illegal to edit your own movies, or to pay somebody to edit your movies, or to buy a movie that has been edited.  The problem Clean Flicks ran into is that to edit the DVDs, they had to make a copy, which is illegal.  If we were still using VHS, and they were slicing tape, then this may not have happened.  The 16 directors won based on the fact that Clean Flicks had to first copy the DVD to edit the movie.

I'm pretty sure there is not a way to edit DVDs without making a copy.
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Spriggan

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2006, 07:06:52 PM »
Quote


Sure DJ Danger Mouse got in trouble.  Because it was illegal.  In my opinion it wasn't wrong, it was only illegal.  A lot of people praised the artistic value of that 'illegal' piece of work.  I don't understand why it's legal for an artist to paint a picture of Mickey Mouse or a campbell soup can, and it's art, but a musician can't remix a few bars of another artist's music.


There's nothing wrong with remixing music, but there's something wrong when you sell that remix without getting the permission of the copyright holder.  DM didn't get in trouble for mixing it, he got in trouble for selling it.

And actually it's not legal for an artist to paint Mickey Mouse and sell it without Disney's permission, heck it's not even legal for me to pay you to paint Mickey Mouse.  Just like it's not legal for someone to make a videogame using him, a book using him or anything else.  As a character or image he's copyrighted, a can of soup isn't.

As for your cleanflicks question, they got in trouble for charging to edit the films, and also renting those edited films out.  As far as I'm aware it has little to do with what medium it was on.

edit: some quotes

from the judge:
Quote
"The right to control the content of the copyrighted work...is the essence of the law of copyright."


DGA president Michael Apted
Quote

"No matter how many disclaimers are put on the film, it still carries the director's name," Apted said. "So we have great passion about protecting our work, which is our signature and brand identification, against unauthorized editing."


about clearplay, the DVD player that does the edits:
Quote
Because ClearPlay's technology does not involve making an altered DVD copy, it has been shielded from the copyright infringement claims.


So there you go, the lawsuit is whether or not you or anyone has the right to alter a movie (and sell it) which we don't.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 07:15:56 PM by Spriggan »
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Firemeboy

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2006, 07:19:31 PM »
From the opinion.

Quote
The Studios claim that CleanFlicks and Family Flix are infringing their exclusive right to reproduce the copyrighted works under § 106(1); that CleanFlicks and Family Flix are violating the Studios’ right to create derivative works under § 106(2); and that all four of the counterclaim defendants are infringing the exclusive right of distribution of copies under § 106(3).


They weren't concerned that there was editing going on, just that there were copies being made, and those copies were being distributed.

Quote
There's nothing wrong with remixing music, but there's something wrong when you sell that remix without getting the permission of the copyright holder.  DM didn't get in trouble for mixing it, he got in trouble for selling it.
 See, again, I'm not so sure.  I worked with an artist at Weber State who painted 'pop art'...  He took images from pop art, painted them, and then sold his work.  Even though there were all sorts of images and logos that are not in the public domain.  That is what pop art is, the painting of popular images..  
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Firemeboy

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2006, 07:24:35 PM »
Actually, I guess the editing would fall under the 'dirivitive works' line there.  

Does that mean a person cannot edit their own copy?  
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 07:24:51 PM by Firemeboy »
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Spriggan

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2006, 07:25:53 PM »
Quote
From the opinion.


They weren't concerned that there was editing going on, just that there were copies being made, and those copies were being distributed.

  

I read that as the studios were upset that the sanitizers were infringing on the studios rights to make sure the content is the way they want it to be presented.  If it wasn't about editing, and about copying, the rulings wouldn't mention "right to create derivative works" and "reproduce the copyrighted".  Also again, all the news articles on the tech sites said this is about selling edits, and that if this was done without copying the DVD that it would still be illegal because it alters the original without permission in a permanent way.  That's why the DVD player avoided legation, it doesn't alter the original, well that and congress passed a law specifically saying that DVD player was legal.  Sondenburd (or how ever you spell his name) was the one that started the lawsuites because cleanflicks and like movies were "ruining" his films and making edits that he didn't like.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 07:27:20 PM by Spriggan »
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Firemeboy

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Re: Bye-Bye CleanFlicks
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2006, 07:30:20 PM »
Ok, upon further reading, the judge actually found the works to not be transformative, so they wouldn't have been affected by the dirivitive clause.  However, since a copy was made, the judge found them in the wrong.

So to my limited reading, it was not the editing that was wrong, but the copying.

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