Matrix Revolutions **SPOILERS**

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

uh... werewolves are the ones with the silver weakness traditionally, not vampires.

[Fellfrosch]

Eagle Prince, I thank you for your level-headedness in this discussion. You've been attacked by just about everybody, and haven't resorted to flamng or personal attacks. I remain unconvinced, but I agree with you about the inherent silliness of this entire discussion, so I will drop it.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

woudl that we all should have such an attitude. But you first, punk-face.

No, I mean, I'm just pointing out what I see, and that doesn't even include the movie. Note that my last comment has NOTHING to do with the validity of the "vampire" comment, because the comment was meant to point out mythological/legendary sources, and werewolves are just that. If anything, it lends more credence to the basic idea, if not hte particulars.

Anyway, I watched the first one again the other night. And y'know, for all the attention that the reality v. perception theme gets, I think it's much less interesting than the fate v. free will theme.

Neo is the chosen one because HE chose. Until he makes that choice, he is, as the oracle said, not the one. She wasn't lying to playing games. She just let him believe that he was right when he said "I'm not the one." He wasn't then. It's not until he decides to go in after Morpheus that he starts to make that decision. It's not belief, it's choice.

Just my thoughts.

[JP Dogberry]

SE, I like that argument. I like it a lot.

I'm still sticking with the Second Matrix though, although this probably works without being mutually exclusive. I'll have to think about it more.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Why did humans build machines with emotions in the first place? Thats what I want to know.

[Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock]

It's because Humphry Bogart grieved over them on long winter evenings. Thats my reasoning for you Jeffe.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

that should be simple: humans are STUPID.

[Eagle Prince]

Why did humans build machines with emotions in the first place? Thats what I want to know.

The recycling program (some turkish looking guy, forget his name) talks about this in Matrix 3.  He basically says they (the programs) are sentinent but don't have true emotions.  I forget exactly how it goes, but the turkish guy says he loves his daughter, and Neo asks if that means programs have emotions.  The turkish guy says "love" is just a word that explains his connection to his daughter.  Its kind of weird and I'm not totally sure I understand it fully, but the idea was programs don't have emotions in the normal human sense, but do possess something similar to it.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

could you explain what you think could be similar to having emotions? and then also explain the use for emotions in a logical creature. What good does it do to have a program that can feel love, hate, rage, sorrow or joy?

This is where I think the matrix series drops the ball and makes the machines too human. Whats wrong with them being machines.... I think that would have made for a stronger movie than what they went with.

[Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock]

Well Jeffe, if you recall the machines need the humans (hereafter to be referred to as hu-mains) to not be able to notice that they are in a program. So whats the best way to do that? Make programs that act accordingly to hu-main will. If you knew nothing of the matrix, how could you believe that the Oracle was that old lady? Or that the agents were programs(that one is a bit more obvious, but still.)? What about the french-ies? He would just be a club owner with his guards and womyn.

And speaking of this train of thought(before it exits through the rear entrance in my skull), why did Mr. Frenchy(I'd rather not butcher his name) show a bit of nervousness when Trinity pulled the gun on him to end the BS that was going on and make her own deal?

I'll wait.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

think of the gun as a kind of trash can icon. One click and the Merovingian is deleted... even he cant change that.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Ok this has been bothering me too, you all assume that the programs, are the machines,... In my mind they arn't. They are mathmatical constructs that exist only in some vague matrix space. Sure some may parallel real machines in the real world, but a machine intelligence would realize that for the matrix specialized constructs would have to exist inside the matrix all the time, independently of the real world. So for me the programs are a third seperate entity from the machines... kind of a hybrid of human and machine minds. I think the matrix is going the route of neo-evolutionary development. A melding of humanity and machines, living in asymbiotic relationship. The programs are an offshoot of the congruence of both species.

Can you imagine the technology required to handle millions of programs with real person alogirythems
Staggering.

[Entsuropi]

Well, i don't wanna know about their bandwidth costs.

[JP Dogberry]

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a Station Wagon filled with Magnetic Tape.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

To be honest, the movie was a letdown.... cliche, bad dialog and characters I didn't give a darn about. Neo has like six lines (ok a few more than that) and spends a large chunk of the movie thinking (offscreen), or wandering around asking dumb questions. his reaction to the Smith that got out was the most annoying. How could he not get it when the guy keeps calling him Mr. Anderson and talks just like Smith for ten minutes. Neo just looks at him like a clueless little puppy.
It was annoying, ...kinda like the kid (who really didnt need to be in this movie or the last) who instead of shooting a stupid chain to open the gate decideds to tangle with one more sentinal. even though blasting the chain would have saved everybody, and if whats her name hadn't been there he would have been dead with everyone else. Arrgh annoying.

Ok and the Sentials. there's supposedly one for every man woman and child in zion, but losses like they were taking wouldnt be acceptable by machine standards. Entropys right, why didn't any of them have any long range weapons. Besides the fact that the humans would have been decimated. Oh and Im sure glad they just flew around and avoided overwhelming the exo's for as long as they did.