Author Topic: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue  (Read 2457 times)

deckacards

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deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« on: January 25, 2009, 12:42:49 AM »
Here it is...my first topic and submission...there's no title, yet (and the working title suddenly seemed to have an unintended sexual inuendo to it - "King's Wood" - so I didn't use it...except I just told you...ah well), so I just named it Prologue.

Thanks for the help!

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 12:09:57 AM »
The first page reads like a history lesson.  I would suggest you show, not tell.

Fakhirs:  Is this pronounced Fakers?  Or a fauk sound?

Quote
“Surely it is not here, for a great land this is indeed, and destined for great prosperity, I should think, but you have just arrived and have not yet tasted the luxury of peace as we have.”

While I’m a big fan of long sentences, I think this one is a little much.

What is “luscious art”?

Quote
It was not in his nature to give the appearance of pleasure when it came to associating with others.

This seems to be Thorn’s character as you’ve shown so far, so it’s probably not necessary to tell since you have been showing it quite well.

Is Thorn King or not?  I never really got that part clear in my head.

OK, enough of the nit-picky things.  I really like your story so far, your characters have a depth that draws me in.  I’m not sure of Dalin, but I like the way he is portrayed.  And you paint just enough of the world to keep me interested.  With this just being a prologue it leaves me intrigued as to where you will go with the story.  It’s defiantly something I would continue reading.
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deckacards

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 05:50:36 PM »
Thanks for the feedback, Necro!

Yeah...I was concerned about the "history lesson" section...your feedback made me look a bit harder at it and I may have a way to adjust it...

"fakhir" is intended to be pronounced "fauk-eer"...is that a stretch? Any thoughts on how to get the pronunciation across without being obvious or changing the spelling? I'm afraid going with "fauk" feels too much like a bird in Harry Potter :).

Actually, Thorn is not King, yet...but the idea that I did not make it clear had not occurred to me...thanks! I've made an adjustment that should clarify.

Thanks for the feedback! Keep 'em comin'...be brutal!!!!
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wcarter4

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2009, 12:16:01 AM »
Well, the use of the term Fakhir is certainly clever. They're an interesting bunch of people (whether hindu or Muslim) in reality and they appear to be at least as interesting in your story.

My biggest compliant is the lack of continuity for the point of view. What Dalin's son is doing just sitting there bored at the beginning of the prolouge isn't explained by the end when Dalin's land is apparently plundered.  This is a common problem with 3rd person omniscient narration. The other major problem I saw was a bit of inconsistence in your punctuation with  certain titles and phrases in the first few paragraphs.

As a final word of caution you throw an awful lot of difficult new words and phrases at at the reader in the first three sentences. While inventing new words is certainly not wr0ng, if you use them all at once right away you are going to scare your reader and possibly cause them to put your book down. Spacing them out a bit more should help quite a bit.

I'm not known for giving long critiques. It's mostly because I've been trained to write things in as few words as possible (also there are others here  who are smarter than me). Anyway
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deckacards

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2009, 04:04:13 PM »
wcarter...

Regarding the many new words all at once:  Yeah, I was kind of afraid of that...I wanted to quickly give the reader the "I'm not in Kansas anymore" feeling when they started reading, but I was concerned all the new terms would make for choppy reading as they stopped at each new word and said, "Uh...how do you say that?"

Regarding the switch from Daba to Dalin: Good catch...I actually didn't even see the problem there until I submitted it this weekend...I was reading back through it and thought, "Wait a minute...what the hell was I thinking?" I think - way back when I originally started this section - that I meant to go back to Daba at the end of the chapter/prologue and bookend the story of Dalin...but Dalin's story ended up being more than I intended, and I liked it, so I changed the way things would go with the two of them in the novel. I just never went back and realized I had to fix the shift.

What it SHOULD communicate when I'm done re-working it is that the story communicated in the chapter happened about a thousand years earlier...Daba is 411, his father died 35 years ago, but his father was over 900 years old because of the kali that sustained him. The story you just read about Dalin happened before Daba was born and was told to him by his father. Later in the novel, Daba will be re-introduced as one of the major characters, and the back story in this prologue will be key to understanding the novel and how things fit together.

Thanks for the feedback!

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Frog

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2009, 11:06:29 PM »
Thoughts While Reading:
Lots of new words and background on the world which could all be important, but you really got to hook me first somehow. For me, the best way to do that is to bring out your characters or an active scene. This feels too much like an info dump...

Wait, if the scene you’re setting up is for Dalin and Thorn, I wouldn't mention Daba yet. Just give us enough background to get to the scene at hand.

Dialogue is good, but the chucks seem just a bit too long, almost like they are rehearsing speeches/preaching to each other.

I like the mosquito concept, but the way you have it set up- in a conversation a long time after the actual event- makes it feel really detached emotion wise.

Why is Thorn helping Dalin plan defenses if he said the reason he didn't want to be king is to avoid the conflict? Did he decide to become King then?

Good last line, but you never did get back to Daba, which makes me wonder why you introduced him at all.

Overall impression:
For a first draft it was really good. You seem to have developed an interesting and original world with some good characters. The problems I was having was with the general style and feeling. The only scenes you had were your two characters talking about the events around them and you were telling me so much about everything with very little action unless you count eating breakfast. Some scenes are going to be like that, but I think you have a lot of potential here to bring out a conflict and emotion and really invest me in your world. What about a scene of them actually finding someone they loved poisoned and dead? What about a scene where the villagers turned solders show their incompetence for the coming battle? Same information, different way of getting it across.  Same with your characters. You told me a lot about them but you should show it too, in their dialogue and actions. Don’t show what you tell and visa versa, at least not in the same scene. And once you set your scene, you can put all your important world building details back in, spread throughout instead of a great lump.
At least those would be a few of my initial suggestions/opinions. It is still quite early in your book so I’ll probably be more helpful with specifics as we go on and I get used to your style.
Good work and good luck!
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deckacards

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2009, 11:23:45 PM »
man...I love this forum! the feedback here is incredibly helpful...I'll stop responding to every single post, but thanks a lot, guys!
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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2009, 11:27:54 PM »
man...I love this forum! the feedback here is incredibly helpful...I'll stop responding to every single post, but thanks a lot, guys!
No worries. I have a tendecy to want to respond to everything too and they haven't thrown me out yet... though the jury may still be out on that one. ;)
Glad it helps. :)
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Reaves

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2009, 02:13:23 AM »
First of all I want to say that your prose is very clean and generally very pretty. There are several times where I am like, "oh, that is a cool turn of phrase."

Taken as a whole there is really nothing with the first section of the prologue except that it is very telly. However the first couple sentences aren't very interesting; at first it looks to be nothing more than a bunch of really strange names and places. Don't misunderstand me, you don't need to grab the reader in the first paragraph; but its a lot to digest at once.

You do go on later and define those strange terms but to the average English-speaker they all look and sound alike.

I like how you jump right into the conflict; Thorn wants one thing while Dalin wants another. However, it does leave the reader a little disoriented. The info at the beginning of the story suggests we should root for Dalin, while Thorn's name and dialogue suggests we should root for him. I guess my point is we don't really have any sympathy for either character. If its the prologue, and in fact neither of them is the main character, it really doesn't matter.

I like your dialogue. You really managed to portray the way people talk in real life while not sacrificing clarity.

I like how Thorn makes biscuits. Nice touch.

The last section describing how many years passed and no enemy appeared, and then suddenly they are at the gates, seemed a bit rushed. I read that and thought, "where did they come from then? why are they seemingly invincible?"

Otherwise, I was impressed. You have a good style and you use the dialogue very effectively. I look forward to seeing future submissions!
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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 07:14:58 PM »
I have a tendecy to want to respond to everything too and they haven't thrown me out yet...
Oh, did we forget to tell you? :P


The main thing that's off about the prologue is that the beginning and ending seem to lack a connection to the (very good) middle part. I think the middle could stand very well on its own. The beginning in particular is highly confusing, especially because we don't really need to know most of those names to understand the rest of the text. You could do well without that info dump and spread the little bit that we really need to know out a bit, and add the rest in the first chapter(s).

Taken by itself, I think that the dialogue doesn't need a lot of improving, if any, you only need to begin and end the prologue differently, somehow.

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2009, 09:53:45 PM »
Okay, first off... neat story. It's pretty obvious that there's a lot of back story, and a lot of plans in your head.  I look forward to seeing where this all goes! :)

Unfortunately, I had a really hard time getting into this prologue.  Honestly, if I had picked this book off the shelf at a store, I would have read the first few paragraphs and set it back.    I don't say that to be rude, but I'd like to emphasize the point others have made already:  the opening page feels more like your background notes rather than actual prose.  Consider perhaps starting the novel on page two.  “I want no bloody part of it,”  could be a great line to start the book with.  Then, for all the stuff on page 1, gradually weave it into your scenes and reveal it to us. 

The same is true for the opening of page 4, and other parts as well.  Right now it seems like 80% of your information is conveyed to us directly by the narrator rather than shown to us via action.

I read "Fakhir"  as "Fok-hear".  On the first sentence of the novel, I chuckled and thought of "Meet the Faulkers".   Then it took me a about 2 pages to get that out of my mind each time I read the word.

Like a lot of us here, you tend to use conjunctions to start sentences.  I suspect you've taken more writing classes than I ever did, so I'll leave it to you to decide its they're okay to use or not.  Just consider that it might be a stronger statement if the sentence doesn't start with "And" or "But".

Your dialogue is pretty long-winded.  But on the other hand, you have a pretty good way with words.  Thorn has a lot of good lines especially. For a solider who has seen so much battle, he sure has a lot to say!  It has been my experience to observe that people who have been through a lot of hard times are often people who listen much, consider their words, and keep them to a minimum.  (Unlike, say... me for example... LOL)

Also, regarding dialogue, a lot of what you wrote sounded overly-formal.  That may be intentional, which is fine. You may benefit from the "read it out loud" method.

I never got a strong sense of where Dalin and Thorn were while they talked in their first scene.  You mention a wall:  "Dalin sat beside him on the wall"   What wall? 

BTW, I want to give you props for your 3rd person omniscient POV.  As the WRITING EXCUSES team has said many times, not a lot of fantasy is written in this POV.  There are pitfalls to it, some of which it seems you may be up against yourself.  (A tendency to easily do "info dumps", for instance).   Despite this though, I am looking forward to seeing if you continue that with chapter 1 and beyond.

I admit it:  I stopped reading this at their breakfast scene because all the talk of bacon and biscuits made me hungry. :)  After I ate, I continued reading.   ;) ;D

Quote
The two men sat in silence, drinking tea and considering the events


That pretty much sums up the entire action of the prologue, doesn't it?  IMO, a prologue is a promise of things to come for a novel or even a series.  There was little to no conflict in these pages, so it made for slow reading.  Yes, there was a spark of an argument on page 9, but no stakes involved that I (as a reader) cared about.    You don't necessarily need swords and external conflict, but everything just seemed ... easy... for these guys.  Just consider that "big picture" when you're planning out your chapters and events.  [/b]

The news of losing Jedadiah fell flat to me.  Maybe you don't intend us to feel anything, in which case that would be OK.  We just have no connection with Jedadiah, and we barely have one with Dalin.  So it's hard to empathize at this point.

Quote
And yet, Dalin seemed to faintly remember a conversation he and Thorn had had when the soldier had first met – a disturbing one – one that had kept Dalin from sleeping soundly for a week after.   

Awkward sentence.

Story-wise, I was a little confused by the enemy that's now threatening their peaceful kingdom.  Are they called skaggs? Or is that a derogatory term?  (If so, it's a great one!)  On the first read though, I pictures a large army of giant-sized mosquitos.  Seriously.  I had to go back and re-read it to understand that you were simply comparing the attack that a giant mosquito makes to the attack that was actually witnessed.   I may not be the most astute reader (heh heh), but you may want to consider looking at that section to clean it up.

Looking forward to the next installment!
:)




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deckacards

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2009, 12:36:05 AM »
Regarding the "telly" nature of the prologue:  Yeah, I have to admit, this section was written more as pre-writing for part of the story...one of those things where you write as you create the back story for the novel. I actually didn't realize how much it needed re-written until this review process (which has been INCREDIBLY helpful :)). I've already got some ideas for it...jwdenzel, starting with "I want no bloody part of it" is a great idea...I'll experiment with that as well as fleshing out some of the back story throughout the rest of the prologue.

Regarding the dialogue: I completely agree that some of the dialogue is long-winded in places...again, one of those things where I was in "pre-writing" mode and developing the characters as I went along...when I was done with it, Thorn's character didn't really fit some of the "speeches" I gave him. During my re-write, I'll work on cleaning up the dialogue and making it more efficient and character driven rather than soap-box driven  ;).

Regarding the shift from Daba to Dalin:  When I originally started writing, I knew the story would be about Daba (and still is), but I fell in love with the story of Dalin and ended up writing much more on it than I intended...the tricky thing is this...the entire prologue about Dalin is back story...it happens almost a thousand years before the actual novel and the main characters of the book. In fact, Daba (being one of three main characters in present time) doesn't come back in the story until his own chapter in chapter 5 (maybe a bit before that...but we'll see)...Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4 follow completely different characters...at least, they seem that way...SO...all that to say, in my re-write, I will completely eliminate any mention of Daba and follow only Dalin and Thorn...should make the prologue more interesting...

Regarding the rushed ending:  hehe...busted. I actually hadn't written the end of the prologue until I agreed to submit it this week. Then, I re-read it and found out, "Holy crap! I never finished this...." So, the ending was, in fact, rushed just like you suspected, Reaves :)

Regarding Jedediah News: Not really sure how I will address that in the re-write...I wasn't really going for any emotional impact for the reader...it was simply a way to introduce the threat of outsiders coming to Kalikhan...but now that you mention it, I'm going to have to address the question, "Do I want an emotional impact?" I'm concerned about fleshing it out too much...I don't want it to dominate the Prologue because it's really a minor point...but now that I think about it, if Dalin had not dealt with an outside enemy before, or this type of tragedy in Kalikhan, then it WOULD have to have a significant emotional impact on him, wouldn't it...hmmm...

Regarding the enemy and "skaggs": Actually, skaggs is a derogatory term used by Thorn...the enemy...well...that's one of those things that will remain a bit mysterious until a certain point...but don't worry...there will be no shortage of evil henchmen-type characters :)

Regarding 3rd person POV: I think the main reason 3rd person omniscient struggles for acceptance in novels is because it sounds like a children's tale...like a fable...sometimes, I think that works, but I honestly think 3rd person limited is more of what you'll see in the novel...with 3rd person omniscient in the Prologue(s)...little tidbit...the structure of my single novel now looks to have three parts (Books) and each "book" may have it's own "prologue" to it...each prologue written more in 3rd person omniscient...perhaps...I like the idea of a prologue sounding like a tale being told by a narrator to setup the chapters...

"And" or "But": Well...the official "rule" I remember is that if you know the rules, and you know what you're doing, you can break the rules. The danger is using it too much (actually, see "Finding Forrester" the movie)...which I may have done if you noticed it. Hmmm....worth reviewing...thanks! I usually just write whatever sounds good for the pace/feel...

Who to root for...Dalin or Thorn:  Why not both...? ;)

Keep the reviews coming! I've had so many break-through moments thanks to you guys it's not even funny. Really appreciate it...
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maxonennis

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2009, 05:57:05 AM »
Others have already brought up the info dumping, so I'll leave that alone.

I'll be brief, I agree with jwdenzel, if I were reading this in a bookstore, I porbably wouldn't have made it past the first paragraph. To sum up my biggest problems as a reader:

1.   Only about half of the porlogue is present action, and there was a point in the second to fifth page where I thought it was present, but it turned out to be a flash back. Very disappointing after reading the first page.

2.   You substitute external dialog, and action (showing) with internal dialog (telling). There are times that you do a good job of showing the charater's personalities through their dialog, and then repeat the obvious in internal dialog. That gets old for a reader.

3.   You seem to be forgetting about writing all five senses. Most of the time I don’t know what the characters look like, what kind of scenery is around them, and they don’t seem to be giving any facial expressions or body language. In short, about half of it reads like a transcript rather than a novel.

Here are some small nags as I read them:

Maybe I’ve stumbled on to some foreshadowing here, but how can Thorn’s place of birth be a “far land” and “virtually nonexistent”?

If Thorn is the king, why is he living in a “small house”? I assume this means a cottage, and even a peaceful land like Kalikhan, Thorn was made king, I’m guessing, to foresee possible dangers. Living in a cottage is a huge possible danger, not just in terms of war, but also someone amongst the people who might want to be king taking advantage of the lack of guard for Thorn.

The first five or so pages aside, I enjoyed reading this--and hope for more action in the first chapter.
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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2009, 06:15:45 AM »
deckacards - Have you considered trying doing the prologue from a 3rd person Limited POV?

I'm not suggesting you need to.  I just have a hunch that if you pick one character (Dalin?), and stick to his POV, you might find this prologue takes on a whole different feel.  The result may possibly turn out to be something you like better? 

Give it a shot! Can't hurt to try, eh?   I have a hunch it may be a good writing prompt for you. :)

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Re: deckacards - 01/26/09 - Prologue
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2009, 06:22:59 AM »
Actually...I think that's exactly what I'm going to try :)

The prologue was largely the result of pre-writing I didn't want to let go of...the core of the story is important...and I like the exchange between Dalin and Thorn...but thanks to this thread, I have a pretty good idea of how to fix it...

I think i'll take the advice of starting with Thorn's opening line of dialogue and go from there...probably write from Dalin's POV...

A fair warning...the novel itself (the chapters) are in 3rd person limited...but the "jhin" (Daba or Dalin) characters don't return until about Chapter 5...Chapter 1 covers a bit of past material, but not like this and not in "narrator" form...

Thanks for the encouragement! I assure you...all of the advice here has been well-received and appreciated...i'll be applying much of it.

Just remember...the events revolving around Dalin and Thorn in the Prologue occur almost 1,000 years in the past for the novel...most of the rest is in present day...in the finished product, it will be clear and make sense...
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