When it comes to the logic behind the mistfallen, atium replaces cadmium for the purposes of the mistsickness.
Thanks everyone, I've pieced together a conclusion that I can live based on what you all said :D
Still not overly convinced by those Leechers though, might make for some very dull fight sequences! Hopefully it'll be watered down to reduce the effect of metals instead of remove them entirely? Here's hoping :)
Cheers for the books Brandon, in case you ever see this!
Don't forget that not all the metals are used for fighting. There could be very innovative ways of being a Leecher without it being in a fight. If it's part of a crew like we had in the first trilogy, I imagine they will be specialized for a certain task just like Breeze or Spook was.
Don't forget that not all the metals are used for fighting. There could be very innovative ways of being a Leecher without it being in a fight. If it's part of a crew like we had in the first trilogy, I imagine they will be specialized for a certain task just like Breeze or Spook was.
I agree with you and I can see how it'd be a useful tool for imprisoning misting/mistborn and so on; I just think it's a bit too good. I mean, imagine the Zane-Vin fight with that metal involved - first to touch the other wins! Maybe there's a loophole I don't know, hopefully copperclouds stop it or something along those lines.
Preservation operates by using the number 16 to show what is his influence. So when the mists started snapping people in HoA, an equal portion of those people became a misting of each metal. This left Preservation with a problem, he needed there to be atium mistings, but adding that into the mix would make 17 types of mistings instead of his preferred number of 16 to let Elend know what was going on. So he, for the purposes of the mistsickness, replaced cadmium with atium because nobody knew about cadmium. That let there be 1/16th of those taken by the mistsickness be atium mistings, or the mistfallen, so that Elend would clue into the pattern and have his super awesome army at the end. This didn't alter the structure of allomancy at all, just the perception of it.When it comes to the logic behind the mistfallen, atium replaces cadmium for the purposes of the mistsickness.
I'm not sure I follow. Elaborate.
Thanks everyone, I've pieced together a conclusion that I can live based on what you all said :D
Still not overly convinced by those Leechers though, might make for some very dull fight sequences! Hopefully it'll be watered down to reduce the effect of metals instead of remove them entirely? Here's hoping :)
Cheers for the books Brandon, in case you ever see this!
Don't forget that not all the metals are used for fighting. There could be very innovative ways of being a Leecher without it being in a fight. If it's part of a crew like we had in the first trilogy, I imagine they will be specialized for a certain task just like Breeze or Spook was.
Preservation operates by using the number 16 to show what is his influence. So when the mists started snapping people in HoA, an equal portion of those people became a misting of each metal. This left Preservation with a problem, he needed there to be atium mistings, but adding that into the mix would make 17 types of mistings instead of his preferred number of 16 to let Elend know what was going on. So he, for the purposes of the mistsickness, replaced cadmium with atium because nobody knew about cadmium. That let there be 1/16th of those taken by the mistsickness be atium mistings, or the mistfallen, so that Elend would clue into the pattern and have his super awesome army at the end. This didn't alter the structure of allomancy at all, just the perception of it.When it comes to the logic behind the mistfallen, atium replaces cadmium for the purposes of the mistsickness.
I'm not sure I follow. Elaborate.
Preservation operates by using the number 16 to show what is his influence. So when the mists started snapping people in HoA, an equal portion of those people became a misting of each metal. This left Preservation with a problem, he needed there to be atium mistings, but adding that into the mix would make 17 types of mistings instead of his preferred number of 16 to let Elend know what was going on. So he, for the purposes of the mistsickness, replaced cadmium with atium because nobody knew about cadmium. That let there be 1/16th of those taken by the mistsickness be atium mistings, or the mistfallen, so that Elend would clue into the pattern and have his super awesome army at the end. This didn't alter the structure of allomancy at all, just the perception of it.When it comes to the logic behind the mistfallen, atium replaces cadmium for the purposes of the mistsickness.
I'm not sure I follow. Elaborate.
But how do atium-mistings exist in the first place? That messes up Preservation's magic number of 16 anyway, making it so there are 17 different types of mistings. And there are no specific Larasium-mistings, everyone and anyone can burn Larasium.
I get that Atium and Larasium are God metals, so the normal rules don't necessarily apply. I also understand that the God metals are powerful enough that they can be used in their opponent's magic system. The possibility of a Larasium spike being used to steal a certain power (or, IMO, all powers) from a victim doesn't bother me. And since Feruchemy can use Atium to store and tap age, I'd assume Larasium-minds are possible, which again, is completely fine.
But how can there be Allomancers who can use nothing but atium? These are people who were born with the correct genetic coding to allow them to burn metals to gain access to a small part of the power of Preservation. And yet, they use their Preservation power to burn Ruin, and nothing else?
No, to me, it doesn't seem to fit that there is a small subset of people in Preservation's magic system who don't use Preservation's power at all. If it was just mistborn, fine. They are so Allomantically gifted they can use the other God metal. If it was said that all mistings can burn their one basic metal, and atium too, I'd accept that. That would just mean that burning atium Allomantically requires some small bit of Allomantic potential. Even if it was set up so that anyone in the world, regardless of their Allomantic ability or lack of it, could burn atium, I'd accept that. It would fit in with Larasium just fine there. But to make it so that a small group exists that can exclusively burn atium confuses me.
And, why did Preservation not reveal any full-out Mistborn in Elend's army? Why not make all the Mistborn sick for 16 days instead of the Seers? They could have gotten rid off all the atium stockpile just as well, and killed more Koloss in the process.
And everyone here keeps referring to Cadmium as the metal replaced by atium for the purposes of Preservation's mistsickness. Is this just an example, or are we told anywhere that Cadmium specifically was replaced? How do we know it wasn't Nicrosil or Bendalloy that was substituted. Or the aluminum or duralumin gnats? Is there a quote that shows Preservation substituted atium mistings into the mistfallen? Or is that just speculation?
I'm reading as:
Preservation replaced Cadmium with Atium... not just in the Allomancy table but throughout the world, meaning Cadmium isn't actually a metal in the first 3 books, but will be in future. The effect is similar, Atium shows you the future and Cadmium lets them slow down time, so it almost fits. Anyone who was an Atium misting became a Cadmium misting when Sazed remade the world, I guess...
This didn't alter the structure of allomancy at all, just the perception of it.
I thought Mistborn would've been better but if you think about it, 16 metals + a chance of Mistborn would give 17 and that doesn't fit properly. I suppose potential Mistborn can't be Snapped/affected by mistsickness.
No, that's 16 different types of mistings, plus a much smaller group who have access to the 16 basic metals. It doesn't break the 16-rule to me, since you can just as easily consider Mistborn to be mistings, just all 16 types of mistings in one.
And there are no specific Larasium-mistings, everyone and anyone can burn Larasium.
I get that Atium and Larasium are God metals, so the normal rules don't necessarily apply. I also understand that the God metals are powerful enough that they can be used in their opponent's magic system. The possibility of a Larasium spike being used to steal a certain power (or, IMO, all powers) from a victim doesn't bother me. And since Feruchemy can use Atium to store and tap age, I'd assume Larasium-minds are possible, which again, is completely fine.
And everyone here keeps referring to Cadmium as the metal replaced by atium for the purposes of Preservation's mistsickness. Is this just an example, or are we told anywhere that Cadmium specifically was replaced? How do we know it wasn't Nicrosil or Bendalloy that was substituted. Or the aluminum or duralumin gnats? Is there a quote that shows Preservation substituted atium mistings into the mistfallen? Or is that just speculation?
My understanding of this (and I think this comes from an annotation, but it may also just be me making stuff up) is that what all the people called "atium" was not really atium. It was cadmium, and everyone was using the wrong name. The actual atium, which is the body of Ati (the shard) is something else.
Therefore, there are correctly 16 sets of mistings, and in addition to that, there are the two god metals, atium and larasium.
It's important to note that people don't actually burn lerasium. Elend never burned lerasium, he ingested it, which gave him a permanent link to Preservation (ie: making him an Allomancer). This is separate from actually burning lerasium as an Allomancer. When you burn lerasium, that doubles your Allomantic power.
A subtle difference, I know, but an important one.
Atium spikes actually steal any power (if used in the correct positions, of course) ;)
It's cadmium because it and its alloy take the Temporal External Metals slot on the Table of Allomantic Metals. Preservation also chose cadmium because it's rarer on Scadrial.
My understanding of this (and I think this comes from an annotation, but it may also just be me making stuff up) is that what all the people called "atium" was not really atium. It was cadmium, and everyone was using the wrong name. The actual atium, which is the body of Ati (the shard) is something else.
Therefore, there are correctly 16 sets of mistings, and in addition to that, there are the two god metals, atium and larasium.
No, cadmium performs an effect very distinct to the atium we see in the books. Reading from my Table, "Burning cadmium subtly Pulls on time in a bubble around the Allomancer, stretching it and making it pass more slowly." This is not what ever happens when one burns atium.
Bolded line by me.I'm reading as:
Preservation replaced Cadmium with Atium... not just in the Allomancy table but throughout the world, meaning Cadmium isn't actually a metal in the first 3 books, but will be in future. The effect is similar, Atium shows you the future and Cadmium lets them slow down time, so it almost fits. Anyone who was an Atium misting became a Cadmium misting when Sazed remade the world, I guess...
That is a major restructuring of his power. It would involve replacing a basic metal with a God Metal, and removing any power at all from Cadmium or it's alloy. I don't think that's what happened.
No, it seems people are saying that Preservation just ignored Cadmium-mistings when he sent the mistsickness (though I'm not sure what he did with Cerrobend-mistings), and Snapped the atium-mistings instead.
Fireborn even said:QuoteThis didn't alter the structure of allomancy at all, just the perception of it.
I just don't understand how Atium-mistings exist at all. And we know they existed before the mistsickness returned, because the Lord Ruler was testing certain Obligators for a long time before the end of his reign.QuoteI thought Mistborn would've been better but if you think about it, 16 metals + a chance of Mistborn would give 17 and that doesn't fit properly. I suppose potential Mistborn can't be Snapped/affected by mistsickness.
No, that's 16 different types of mistings, plus a much smaller group who have access to the 16 basic metals. It doesn't break the 16-rule to me, since you can just as easily consider Mistborn to be mistings, just all 16 types of mistings in one.
It's important to note that people don't actually burn lerasium. Elend never burned lerasium, he ingested it, which gave him a permanent link to Preservation (ie: making him an Allomancer). This is separate from actually burning lerasium as an Allomancer. When you burn lerasium, that doubles your Allomantic power.
A subtle difference, I know, but an important one.
Wow. I didn't know that. That does change things. That actually really helps. I'd always assumed that since everyone had a greater part of Preservation than Ruin in them, they instinctively recognized Larasium enough to Allomantically burn it. Almost as if Larasium did most of the burning for them. I didn't know that ingesting it was enough.
So do we know why people don't get some power out of simply ingesting atium?
Atium spikes actually steal any power (if used in the correct positions, of course) ;)
Didn't know this either. I don't suppose you know if atium has it's own correct position do you? Or do you simply substitute it for any other spike? Can a atium spike imbued with an Allomantic physical metal power be inserted in a pewter-point?
I wouldn't be surprised if you don't know though. I don't think we know enough of about Hemalurgy to make any kind of accurate guess.
It's cadmium because it and its alloy take the Temporal External Metals slot on the Table of Allomantic Metals. Preservation also chose cadmium because it's rarer on Scadrial.
But again, has this been confirmed, or is it just assumed? I know in the books they thought Atium to be a Temporal External Metal, but is that why we think Preservation chose Cadmium to ignore in favor of Atium, or is it stated in a Q&A or annotation somewhere?
Brandon's RAFO'd it, but I'm sure there is some sort of other effect.
Atium can act like Hemalurgic wild card and can be substituted for any spike, I'm fairly certain.
I do believe that it is confirmed. I don't have a link for you, so feel free to say [citation needed] ;) But I do believe that Preservation did it for those reasons.
I like how you say that as if I'm some kind of authority on the subject. Which I'm really not.
I actually brought up the atium burning issue in another topic. I have the same problem with it you do.
Well, didn't some of the soldiers die from the mistsickness? I'm assuming that those might have been the mistborn. A shame they died, but it's not like Preservation could fine tune the mists for them.
I believe you, but do you know where this is said? I'd like to see what else was said on the subject. If you can't remember where, that's fine.
I believe it is NOT confirmed. But it is a popular theory that has not been denied.
Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy. :P
Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool--and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.
Remember that the tables--and the ars Arcanum--are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.
Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.
As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.
But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.
Well, thank you.I like how you say that as if I'm some kind of authority on the subject. Which I'm really not.
;D Well, your explanation sounded plausible enough to me, mainly since it didn't involve Preservation making any overhauls on his magic system, just him changing the way the mistsickness worked to try to send a message to Elend.
And since I just copy+pasted your text, I wanted to give you credit and let other people see where I grabbed it from, but I didn't bother to get the Quote-link that the site can provide.
No, not really.I actually brought up the atium burning issue in another topic. I have the same problem with it you do.
Oh really? Did you get any satisfactory answers?
That would make sense.Well, didn't some of the soldiers die from the mistsickness? I'm assuming that those might have been the mistborn. A shame they died, but it's not like Preservation could fine tune the mists for them.
I guess they could have been Mistborn, but I don't think so, personally. More likely people who were unable to bear the attempted Snapping for some other reason. Things like heart or lung defects, the old and the young, people who were already sick with some other normal disease, or whatever else. They just couldn't handle the stress of the mistsickness.
Guess not, Peter.I believe it is NOT confirmed. But it is a popular theory that has not been denied.
Okay, maybe I do need to find my quote :P
Aha! There we go, found it. It was on the Barnes and Noble Q&A. And hey, the reason I remember it was because I asked the question.QuoteHemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy. :P
Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool--and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.
Remember that the tables--and the ars Arcanum--are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.
Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.
As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.
But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.
Emphasis mine for the specific piece of interest.
All of Brandon's answers from that specific Q&A have been reposted here: http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6953 This one was midway down on the second page.
ASSISTANT FAIL
ASSISTANT FAIL
That's okay, we forgive you! You're an awesome assistant.
Besides, you practically have to keep up the mystery for subsequent books! You make us work that much harder, and that's why you're awesome. :P
The thing tha weakens leaching is that you have to touch the guy, an touching your oponent in a fight isn't actually that easy....
The thing tha weakens leaching is that you have to touch the guy, an touching your oponent in a fight isn't actually that easy....
It really depends what constitutes "touching".
Oh. That's right. That might mean plastics. That would revolutionize the allomantic industry.
I'm not sure where you guys assumed you have to be touching skin in order to Leech.