Author Topic: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer  (Read 5208 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« on: December 08, 2004, 12:37:03 PM »
reference: http://www.timewastersguide.com/view.php?id=920

So, here it is as promised. any adaptations of these ideas to other systems? Additional ideas?

Eagle Prince

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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2004, 04:33:54 PM »
I really need a vorpal axe.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2004, 05:04:34 PM »
when did we discuss rules lawyering...?  ???
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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2004, 05:23:31 PM »
in the link at the top of the thread, int he WoD thread. N8 and I were talking a bit about it.

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2004, 05:53:45 PM »
ahhh,... I dont think Rules lawyering is a problem,... and if it is hit em with Hackmaster.
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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2004, 06:33:10 PM »
I don't think dismissing it is a good way to address the issue. It clearly is a problem for many gamemasters because it comes up so often. it's better to find good ways to address rules lawyering than it is to dismiss it.

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2004, 06:45:12 PM »
Wow someone cant take a joke today.

I think the biggest thing someone can do to deal with rules lawyering is talk to the person and tell them why its a problem in the first place. Setting up groundrules before play is just as important as playing. It lets players and GM's know what the line is.

All the stuff you discuss in the article is fine, but it kind of ducks the problem too, at the expense of the GM's free time and sanity. GM's really dont get the love they deserve, especially since 90 percent of them would rather be playing than designing a game that the players are going to try to break....

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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2004, 07:04:12 PM »
well of course. But I've talked about that sort of thing before. The optimal solution isn't always a practical solution. Not much of that is very hard to apply beyond coming up with the ideas.  ANd it all makes for better games as well. Who wants to fight the same boring orcs every session?

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2004, 07:16:55 PM »
I think most people dont even bother to confront the person ever.
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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2004, 07:18:42 PM »
probably not, but I'm not going to be tedious by bringing it up in every single article i write, esp when the focus of the article is a list of ideas.

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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2004, 10:22:36 PM »
As a Paranoia GM, I have a very simple solution to Rules Lawyering:

"Citizen, Knowledge of the rules is treason. Please report to the nearest Confession Booth for Summary Execution."
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2004, 10:27:28 PM »
he extends that philosophy to real life too folks...
Really you should dig up his back yard.... the bodies... the bodies man, sweat merciful heavens just look at the bodies!
« Last Edit: December 08, 2004, 10:28:16 PM by ElJeffe »
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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2004, 11:37:06 PM »
Well, I haven't had too many problems with rules lawyering recently. Mostly because I make it clear to my players that I will be changing rules along the way and creating my own rules. This generally works to both their advantage and mine.

And those who continue to protest are cooked and made into pork rines to be served at the next gaming session.
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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2004, 10:55:48 AM »
But to some players, the fun in role-playing isn't about the story or the characters' personalities, but it is min-maxing stats, creating the most powerful character possible within the confines of the rule system, and exploiting loop-holes in the rules. I have played in campaigns and run a few, where some of my players are engineers and computer programmers, and the highest factor of enjoyment for them is the rigidly defined world bound by the ruleset. (Not all engineers are this way, of course, it just happens that all of my rules-lawyers have happened to be these sorts of people).

I sat in a game of Champions (not as the GM thank goodness) where two players had a 3 HOUR argument because one of them wanted to turn the other one pink. One guy thought this was a very minor power, while they other argued this was a major transformation, and depending on the ruling it could unravel how either player had constructed his character.

I bring this up merely to say that simply writing off the concern, or just "laying down the law" as the GM, isn't going to solve this in every case. In the above example, this little prank had campaign-shattering consequences. And both players could back up their claims with how they defined the rules. You have to make a ruling as a GM, but if you do too many knee-jerk decisions, it will come back to haunt you.

But I think one thing is clear from reading the initial review that started this thread, and that is: rules lawyers can cause problems for the lazy GM. If the players know that every orc in the group they're facing is exactly the same, they are just a disposable encounter, then they can plan accordingly and use the rules to their advantage. Then they are using the rules to govern the encounter, rather than roleplay what their character would do. However, if you do as SaintNicholas suggests, mix up the encounters a bit, have an Orc Shaman and his devoted servant who is a rogue thrown in with the group, it becomes anything but a normal encounter. Take time as a GM to think, "Why are these orcs here? What precautions have they taken to protect themselves from adventurers wandering around the corner ready to kick-butt-and-take-names?"

If you know you have a rules-lawyer in your group, if you're serious about keeping the game fun for everyone (yourself included), spend some extra time polishing up your encounters. And keep notes on the rules that get sprung on you (that way you can try and use them later on to the NPCs' advantage, not as revenge, but to keep the game balanced).

By the way, nice column.

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: article: Out Lawyering the Rules Lawyer
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2004, 11:33:31 AM »
thanks, N8.

I know I sounded a little snooty about the point of roleplaying, but you're right: the truth is, people play for different reasons. If you want to play with people who love the rule system and exploiting it, then to make it fun for them, you have to workwith that.  Yeah, it means more work, but it can be rewarding.