The Mists

[darxbane]

Without quoting any coservation laws, I can agree with Chaos.  If the mists are a mystical force, then they could exist at all times, but can only be ssen in cool and/or low-light situations.  The mists are now increasingly able to overcome the restrictions caused by daylight and/or heat and be visible even during the day.

[Chaos]

I'm going to be a physics major in the fall. It's kind of my duty to quote laws of physics.

[darxbane]

There are no laws, just theories that as of now can not be refuted (Tranlsation: There is always another secret) 

[Phaz]

Well, I think the mists are present, day or night. Think of it from a Physics perspective: there exists the Law of Conservation of Mass. It means that matter can't be created or destroyed. Now, I understand this is fantasy so we can manipulate physical laws like that, but come on. Do the mists get "destroyed" just because it's daytime (during the LR's time, of course)? That would mean the Lord Ruler would need to create a new massive set of mists every nighttime when they came out, which would be ridiculous. He's not that powerful.

Just because we can't see the mists doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the day or in buildings. They could just be invisible, for all we know.

(Then again, I don't really know. But when I put it like that, it sounds awfully good, right?)

The only evidence I can think of  that goes against that logic, is that whenever talk about the mist being there or not being there, they typically (if I remember correctly, which might not be the case) don't say that it 'appears' or "disappears' but rather they use words like "coming" and "going."

This would imply that the mist isn't just something that is always there, and just becomes visible or not, but it's something that actually moves across the land.

I think this is also evident when you look at it inside buildings.  In the very first chapter when Kell opens the door to the Skaa hovel, the mists come in through the door.  They don't just materialize around the door.  The same goes for when Vin fights Zane.  The mist is described as entering the room.

I know that isn't a direct contradiction to your theory, but again, Brandon knows the answers, and if it was something like that I assume he would of used different words when describing these things.  (From this book and his others he does seem to be very careful when choosing particular words)

[Chaos]

You're right, I've got nothing on that. I'll admit the theory is loose in that regard. Either way, we are progressing upwards in our knowledge, regardless.

[Comatose]

Why did I miss a couple days of posting, there's so much going on here!
Anyway, IThe mists going away in the day and coming back, sin't them being destroyed and then recreated, it could just be like real mist, evaporatiing under the hot rays of the sun, and then condensing again in the cool night, thier not being destroyed in the day just changed.  There is of course something magical about them still, but  ithink that's why the mists come and go, I think Kelsier even says this when he enters a building he says the mists "evaporate," I believe, so i'm guessing that's how it works.

AS for your theory Chaos, I like it, but I also still like my mist magic skaa theory.

Also I still think that the mists are a tool of ruin and he used it to trap preservation (in the form of the mistspirit), because the mists are change, preservation's opposite, and preservation used the power of creation ( the opposite of destruction) to trap ruin.

[Vintage]

I've gone through some chapters (and annotations) checking specifically for Mist info.

Like Comatose mentioned, the mist is likely to have some kind of common link to our own mist. For instance Mist is wet and wets things.

Vin landed softly on the mist-slicked cobblestones
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud. They dampened, softened, shaded.
More dense than a simple fog and more constant than any normal weather pattern
She landed skidding on mist-wetted feet.
She fell to a crouch as the men died, holding the staff in one hand, her other hand resting against the mist-wetted cobbles.
It's just mist, he told himself. Water vapor. Nothing to fear.

So, I presume that like regular mist, when the sun comes up, it just transforms itself into its gaz form. Talking about physic, I kind of remember that matter has 3 forms - solid, liquid, gaz ; and liquid is sort of before gaz... (Thanks to Mr Nye, the Science Guy  ). The transition, though, seems quite sudden :

They (the mists) puffed into existence as darkness fell, growing like tangles of translucent vines, twisting and wrapping around one another.
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud.

The mist is formed of what ? Elend refers it as "just mist. Water vapor", but he doesn't mention its curls. If it is just water vapor, then it's mixed with ash enabling people to see its movement otherwise there would be nothing to see. I have to conclude to that part that the ash isn't the mist but is what makes it visible, nothing more.

That was to take care of the physic side of things.

I believe though that being somehow related to the three magic system, the mist has to be neutral, neither from Ruin or Preservation, and that would enable it to be used by both sides.

Regarding the Mist Spirit, I found a very intersting annotation:

By the time I finished this book, I realized that--for the mythology I wanted--there could only be a single mist spirit.

So the Mist Spirit could be thought as one entity. Like Comatose, I think it is Preservation because it seeks life ( yes, I know, sticking a knife into a body's person is a very strange way to seek life - unless you need to do it in order to force a person to snap right after - and I kind of recall it wanted to do it with Alendi but did not succeed, then ).

Does this help anyone ?

[Comatose]

I wonder ,does the lord ruler use the mists as well?  We know he has some fascination with them, he has those fancy windows remember?  That would explain why he is so powerful.

Oh, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but the Lord Ruler I'm pretty sure doesn't use hemalurgy, there's omething else special aobut him, he can even push glass, as well as the metals in peoples stomachs, the inquisitors can't do that with all their spikes, and they are the most powerful hemalurgists we know of, and the lord ruler has no visible spikes, and his only "Piercings," would be the ones that protect his age bracelets. 
Also, how does the lord ruler tell when people are lying, I was thinking maybe he is so good a tin, he can hear people's heartbeat, and tell when it quickens, but that still doesn't explain everything.  I'm sure there's some other powers he has that doesn't come from allomancy and feruchemy, and I'm sure he doesn't use hemalurgy, after all he says he is NOT some inquisitor with ENDOWED fabrications.  Endowed, see, that kind proves our theory that hemalurgy is the ritual itself, and those with hemalurgy don't actually use it, they are creations of it.  THe inquisitors just use allomancy, and are strengthed by the power endowed upon them by the lord ruler, however the lord ruler did NOT perform these rituals upon himself.  I'm also pretty sure you needsomeone else to do the ritual for you, and I don't think the lord ruler would be comfortable trusting someone else to give him power, he'd want to get it himself.

[Vintage]

rofl

My ! She is stubborn ! Ok

Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. . . .

Now, go and argue with Brandon.

edit - Sorry, it must sound harsh. But can we just not discuss this particular point and look more for the hows and whys ?

[Phaz]

I wonder ,does the lord ruler use the mists as well?  We know he has some fascination with them, he has those fancy windows remember?  That would explain why he is so powerful.

Oh, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but the Lord Ruler I'm pretty sure doesn't use hemalurgy, there's omething else special aobut him, he can even push glass, as well as the metals in peoples stomachs, the inquisitors can't do that with all their spikes, and they are the most powerful hemalurgists we know of, and the lord ruler has no visible spikes, and his only "Piercings," would be the ones that protect his age bracelets. 
Also, how does the lord ruler tell when people are lying, I was thinking maybe he is so good a tin, he can hear people's heartbeat, and tell when it quickens, but that still doesn't explain everything.  I'm sure there's some other powers he has that doesn't come from allomancy and feruchemy, and I'm sure he doesn't use hemalurgy, after all he says he is NOT some inquisitor with ENDOWED fabrications.  Endowed, see, that kind proves our theory that hemalurgy is the ritual itself, and those with hemalurgy don't actually use it, they are creations of it.  THe inquisitors just use allomancy, and are strengthed by the power endowed upon them by the lord ruler, however the lord ruler did NOT perform these rituals upon himself.  I'm also pretty sure you needsomeone else to do the ritual for you, and I don't think the lord ruler would be comfortable trusting someone else to give him power, he'd want to get it himself.

I was reading the annotations again and literally just a few seconds ago came across this from the one for chapter 36 part 3.

I figured it would make sense that the Lord Ruler would be so old, so experienced, and so powerful that he wouldn't be able to be lied to. He's been around people for centuries and centuries. It's very hard to fool him.

His extreme power in Allomancy takes a little bit more explaining. It'll take me three books to get to the real reasons for that one. So, you'll need to be patient.

[Comatose]

It's he, just so you know vintage.

And I guess I really shoudl read those annotations, I jsut don't get how the lrod ruler could be getting power from hemalurgy, there are obviously things we haven't even imagined that are capable with hemalurgy.

OK, I read than annotation, here's what I found:

Making Inquisitors via Hemalurgy requires killing other people (see book three for an explanation of the process) so there's a lot of mess involved.

VIA, that pretty much confirms our suspicions about hemalurgy, it being a process not a power.

Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. .

And there it is, he obviously isn't a product of hemalurgy though, I'd say he has power because he is able to create inquisitors, that's what I'd say.

Two attributes that can be stored up by Feruchemists, by the way, are healing and the ability to move very quickly. The Lord Ruler had access to both of these abilities in extreme, augmented ways, which was part of what has made him so powerful.

This still makes me think I'm right, he's so powerful because of his feruchemy and allomancy combined,  he might use hemalurgy, but I don't think he used it on himself, you notice how int he above quote, Brandon says if he would have pulled of the bracelets instead, meaning his feruchemical weakness, so the bracelets piercing his arms have nothing to do with hemalurgy, if that's true than what does?
Perhaps that's what he uses to limit Ruin's influence.

[Phaz]

It's he, just so you know vintage.

And I guess I really shoudl read those annotations, I jsut don't get how the lrod ruler could be getting power from hemalurgy, there are obviously things we haven't even imagined that are capable with hemalurgy.

OK, I read than annotation, here's what I found:

Making Inquisitors via Hemalurgy requires killing other people (see book three for an explanation of the process) so there's a lot of mess involved.

VIA, that pretty much confirms our suspicions about hemalurgy, it being a process not a power.

Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. .

And there it is, he obviously isn't a product of hemalurgy though, I'd say he has power because he is able to create inquisitors, that's what I'd say.

Two attributes that can be stored up by Feruchemists, by the way, are healing and the ability to move very quickly. The Lord Ruler had access to both of these abilities in extreme, augmented ways, which was part of what has made him so powerful.

This still makes me think I'm right, he's so powerful because of his feruchemy and allomancy combined,  he might use hemalurgy, but I don't think he used it on himself, you notice how int he above quote, Brandon says if he would have pulled of the bracelets instead, meaning his feruchemical weakness, so the bracelets piercing his arms have nothing to do with hemalurgy, if that's true than what does?
Perhaps that's what he uses to limit Ruin's influence.

You seem to contradict yourself here.

First, you say that Hemalurgy is a process, not a power.

Then you quote something saying his power comes partially from Hemalurgy, meaning that he's used the process on himself.

Then you say it's just his feruchemy and allomancy, and he didn't use it on himself.

I think the more likely conclusion is that if hemalurgy is a process, then maybe that is why his feruchemy and allomancy are so strong.   Maybe that's what it does.

[Comatose]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear.
What I'm trying to say is, the hemalurgy whe know of is mostly likely the process used to create the inquisitors.  I'm saying the lord ruler practices this sort of hemalurgy only in the form of creating inquisitors, and if he does gain powers from hemalurgy in some other way, it's not the same as the hemalurgy we know, because of the lack of spikes.  I hope this isn't sounding contradictory, it makes sense up here in my head.  He obviously is extra powerful in someway, so he's enhanceing his allomancy and possibly feruchemy some how.  I know he get's his healing from burning his feruchemical gold, his strength from burning pewter storages, his age from atium storages, and his speed from burning steel storages, that's what I was talking about with the feruchemy quote.  His extremly powerful pushes and pulls and soothing are still unexplained, so there could very well be some form of allomancy enhancement there, that uses a similar process to hemalurgy, and it is probably classified as hemalurgy, but it is not the same hemalurgy we've seen so far.  WE already know there are different types, with Vin, Zane, the Inquisitors, and Alend, who didn't have allomancy, so I guess, to summarize it all:

 I think that if the lord ruler DOES use hemalurgy(I know it says in the annotation, it just doesn't seem right, I'll get proved wrong later) for gaining power, and not jsut for making inquisitors, than it is not the same sort of power he has endowed the inquisitors with because of the lack of spikes, and the huge difference in power between him and the inquisitors despite this.

[Chaos]

As topic creator, I feel it is my duty to tell you people to post your Hemalurgy stuff in, well, the Hemalurgy thread. Now, if you happen to have a legitimate theory for Hemalurgy pushing away the mists, then that would be acceptable, but I still think that is more correct to post in the Hemalurgy thread.

So... move those thoughts to the Hemalurgy thread, please! I shall attempt to refute my colleague Comatose there.

Moving on to Mists.

AS for your theory Chaos, I like it, but I also still like my mist magic skaa theory.

Also I still think that the mists are a tool of ruin and he used it to trap preservation (in the form of the mistspirit), because the mists are change, preservation's opposite, and preservation used the power of creation ( the opposite of destruction) to trap ruin.

Perfectly honestly, your skaa magic theory is a bunch of crock Skaa is basically just a nice way of saying "not nobles", so I think skaa do not inherently have special abilities unless they are half-breeds.

Of course, I have a crazy theory that Preservation is somehow ash. I have absolutely no basis to support this, and I'll be the first to admit that it is crazy. But! I can neither refute Comatose's skaa magic theory, nor can he refute my Preservation-ash theory, so the theory is no more valid than any other. More crazy, perhaps, but no more valid.

I've gone through some chapters (and annotations) checking specifically for Mist info.

Like Comatose mentioned, the mist is likely to have some kind of common link to our own mist. For instance Mist is wet and wets things.

Vin landed softly on the mist-slicked cobblestones
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud. They dampened, softened, shaded.
More dense than a simple fog and more constant than any normal weather pattern
She landed skidding on mist-wetted feet.
She fell to a crouch as the men died, holding the staff in one hand, her other hand resting against the mist-wetted cobbles.
It's just mist, he told himself. Water vapor. Nothing to fear.

So, I presume that like regular mist, when the sun comes up, it just transforms itself into its gaz form. Talking about physic, I kind of remember that matter has 3 forms - solid, liquid, gaz ; and liquid is sort of before gaz... (Thanks to Mr Nye, the Science Guy  ). The transition, though, seems quite sudden :

They (the mists) puffed into existence as darkness fell, growing like tangles of translucent vines, twisting and wrapping around one another.
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud.

The mist is formed of what ? Elend refers it as "just mist. Water vapor", but he doesn't mention its curls. If it is just water vapor, then it's mixed with ash enabling people to see its movement otherwise there would be nothing to see. I have to conclude to that part that the ash isn't the mist but is what makes it visible, nothing more.

That was to take care of the physic side of things.

I believe though that being somehow related to the three magic system, the mist has to be neutral, neither from Ruin or Preservation, and that would enable it to be used by both sides.

Regarding the Mist Spirit, I found a very intersting annotation:

By the time I finished this book, I realized that--for the mythology I wanted--there could only be a single mist spirit.

So the Mist Spirit could be thought as one entity. Like Comatose, I think it is Preservation because it seeks life ( yes, I know, sticking a knife into a body's person is a very strange way to seek life - unless you need to do it in order to force a person to snap right after - and I kind of recall it wanted to do it with Alendi but did not succeed, then ).

Does this help anyone ?

As our resident physicist (or at least, physicist to be, I guess, since I don't start college until August) I think it is my duty to say that water vapor is already a gas. The three common states of matter are solid, liquid, and gas. Water has names for all of them: ice, water, and water vapor, respectively. I don't know about you, but you can't evaporate a gas, because... it's already a gas. The only state of matter that is above that is a plasma, which normally occurs on the surface of the sun and in other, very specialized scenarios.

They (the mists) puffed into existence as darkness fell, growing like tangles of translucent vines, twisting and wrapping around one another.
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud.

The mist is formed of what ? Elend refers it as "just mist. Water vapor", but he doesn't mention its curls. If it is just water vapor, then it's mixed with ash enabling people to see its movement otherwise there would be nothing to see. I have to conclude to that part that the ash isn't the mist but is what makes it visible, nothing more.

And of course, just as I reference my insane ash theory, you have to ruin it with that. Way to go, jerk (just kidding)!

Ash... we need an ash topic...

[Comatose]

Actually Mist isn't just water vapour, that's clear, it's condensation, that stage between gas and liquid, that's why you don't see huge clouds rising off of lakes, the vapours invisible, then when the water gets high enough into the air, it cools and makes clouds, when enough water droplets collect in the clouds, they become heavy and drop as precipitation.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mist is just condensation that's dropped closer to the ground because of weather conditions, isn't it?  So yes, Mist isn't a liquid but it's not water vapour, which is cleaer, I hope I explained that right, that's my understanding of things, weather or not the mists in the book work like this remains to be seen.
Maybe we should stop focusing on the how they appear and disappear and focus on the why, and what are the effects?