Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Chaos on March 31, 2008, 01:24:02 PM
-
Brandon said in one of his Mistborn 1 annotations that his Allomancy-Feruchemy-Hemalurgy triad is the most complicated system he has ever devised. He's also said that the mists exist in a "fundamental level" to them all.
So, I'm making this topic so we can discuss our mist related theories. Obviously, the mists are very important, so they should have its own special discussion for them.
I had some thoughts, then, about Allomancy and the mists. As it was said in the Ruin and Preservation thread, there is something we are missing, something that ties everything together, most likely. We see all these different points that Brandon needs to cover in MB3--explaining Ruin and Preservation, Hemalurgy, why Vin has the powers she does (for example, drawing upon the mists), why the sun is red and the Ashmounts, and of course, tying it all together in a great climax. It seems overwhelming. I've been feeling lately that all our speculating... isn't really getting us much closer. We are missing something.
And, from what seems to be said about MB3 by alpha readers, the book is as fantastic as the others. I think I remember Ookla saying Brandon was a "dirty genius" in one older thread. So, I have every hope that Brandon will succeed in his quest to explain everything and wrap up Mistborn in a great way.
The key that we are missing, I think has to be the mists. We know not how or why, but the mists are important. Let's get back to theorizing-land, shall we?
Okay, I'm rambling. Here's my theory about Allomancy and its relation with the mists:
Allomancy is weird. Eating metals, and subconsciously burning them to release energy? It's sort of out there, but we like it. For all Brandon's explanation about Allomancy, we never know the fundamentals--the real, deep fundamentals about Allomancy. Namely, how Allomancers burn metals.
I am pretty sure Brandon knows the answer to this question (he likes to make things logical). I recall this one passage where we are in Vin's viewpoint, and she thinks to herself that "she doesn't need to know how she burns metals. All she needs to know is that she can." (something like that). That subtle reference points to a reason for Allomancy, one which isn't understood by anyone (except probably the Lord Ruler).
We are also very aware that Allomancy has a link with the mists--equally mysterious. You use Allomancy, and the mists are pulled to you. Heck, the name "Mistborn" and "Misting" successfully links Allomancers to the very nature of the mists. The two are linked.
How, then? Let's think for a moment. Brandon says mists are "fundamental" in the world of Mistborn and its magic. So--go with me here--what if, the mists were the reason why an Allomancer can burn metals?
It's weird, in itself. I could be totally in crazy land with this one, I'll admit. I have very little evidence to support this theory. But, the link seems logical and reasonable to me.
In fact, I'm beginning to think we all have it backwards. Our normal analysis says that when we use Allomancy, the mists move. That's cause and effect. The Allomancy--cause--makes the mists move--effect. Well, switch that around. An Allomancer uses his or her subconsious, and somehow that channels the mists--pulling the mists towards the Allomancer--and that, in turn, lets the metals burn. The mists are the cause, rather than being the effect.
Oookay, call me insane, because it sounds weird. It just feels... right.
The theory doesn't explain why Inquisitors push away the mists. It doesn't explain a lot of things. But, unless I've completely missed a cool thread, there hasn't been a theory that explains how an Allomancer burns metals. Think about it.
By the way, I don't want this thread to just be a discussion about this theory. Let's discuss everything mist related. I, personally, would love a unified topic to discuss why the killing mists don't usually kill...
-
I have a question in regards to the feruchemy/allomancy thing.
Okay, so if memory recalls feruchemy existed before allomancy, why?
Allomancy is obviously related to the mists of course isn't it? their coming over the world / the well of ascension etc.
Why *is* the well of ascension called that? because people ascend to becoming mistborn? If the well of ascension is the one source of allomancy, where was the source of feruchemy? What is it that makes allomancy and feruchemy so different?
-
Feruchemy did exist before the Ascension, as referenced by Alendi's logbook and Kwaan. Allomancers only existed after the Ascension.
The source of Feruchemy... I have no idea. I don't even have a wild theory for that one.
I think the Well is called the "Well of Ascension" mostly because of the Lord Ruler, because that is the place where he "ascended" to godhood (supposedly, but we know that's a lie). Of course, Kwaan also called it the Well of Ascension, so maybe that name is a lot older than just the Lord Ruler.
-
I definately agree, there something fishy about the mists, they don't quite make sense. We know they are both stability and chaos, abd both Ruin and the mist spirit that opposes him (possibly preservation) manipulate the mists, they have started killing randomly during the day, only sometimes they don't kill, I think that's important, I'm pretty sure it's not random, some people die in the mists, some people live, some people are partiallly effected, they must have something in common. We also know that there is not definate records of the mists until the ascension, although it is likely that they are the deepness.
-
It is only a feeling. I have no text-place to support it, only the feeling that when the mist kills and almost kills, it is the product of something that happens somewhere else. It is tied into allomancy in some way, so when allomancy is used in some extreme way, maybe Flared when you use it all up at once, then the mist reacts somewhere else, and that reaction is killing or almost killing.
I know it does not really make sense, just feels it :)
As to the 3 magic systems. They are really really interconnected. They supplement and compliment each other completely. Since they are so interconnected, what are the odds that one existed before the others ?
In the well-room there are the beads that makes you mistborn. Can we assume that TLR did not create them. Can we assume that who ever imprisoned Ruin also left the beads? So, prior to the imprisonment of Ruin (which is prior to TLR) there were beads that bestowed mistborn abilities. ((or did Preservation turn into those beads??)). So, prior to TLR's ascension there was allomancy.
I simply have a problem with believing that the 3 interconnecting systems did not evolve simultaneously. It would make no sense to me that there was one system, and then evolved two others, so closely related.
(But it could actually explain why feuromancu does not arrect the mist...)
-
I definately agree that if the three systems of magic are really inter-related that it seems unfeasible for them to have not evolved at the same time, or at least not without a good reason for why one (say, allomacy) was unable to manifest as a feasible force before a given point.
Also, Is it possible, that there is some sort of balance limit across all three systems?
Like, since the rise of allomancy and the ascension of T.L.R., the number of feruchemists has decreased (as a result of T.L.R.'s actions of course), but could that also have swayed any balance between the three systems so that as a result of there being fewer feruchemists there are able to be more allomancers?
Okay, so that's not necessarilly something that's really going on, but hey, maybe it's a possibility.
I really like this thread - and sorry for any typos, I haven't slept enough.
-
I think those beads were either found at the original location of the well, or forged from the metallic lake. I'm pretty sure feruchemy existed before allomancy, kwaan's accounts pretty much confirm it, as well as the log book. I also think their was something unnatural about the the lord ruler theat helped him keep Ruin and the mists in check, I don't think it was coincidence that the lord ruler was killed right before the millenial power had finished gathering. His healing abilities seem supernatural at first- being able to regenerate from cinders, however, I realized that he probably just stores health in his gold minds and then burns them for extra health, the same way he gets age from atium, which is why he can heal so quickly from pretty much anything, but there's still something different about him. His allomancy is extremely strong, even without the mists, and I don't think it's just because he ate the that bead, and I don't thin Elend will be as powerful as him, or as Vin. I still think there's something supernatural about her as well, the way she was quickly able to grasp allomancy for example. I'm sure there are explanaitons for these things, but I just htought they weres ome questions that haven't been dealt with much.
-
His healing abilities seem supernatural at first- being able to regenerate from cinders
Don't believe everything the rumors or the Steel Ministry said about the Lord Ruler's legendary survival skills.
-
You mean, his head didn't regrow after it was chopped off his shoulders? Anyway, The Lord Ruler's extra power came from combining the magic systems together. EUOL has already told us that the mix of Feruchemy and Allomancy together produces incredibly powerful effects. EUOL has not said whether or not TLR used some form of Hemalurgy as well, but I believe he was using all three magic types. Did the Mists make it to TLR? I am thinking back now, and I believe they stopped at Vin. That could have been because of Marsh, but it may have been to old Rashek himself.
-
Like I said, I realize now that it was propably just him burning his goldminds, if that is even true. Sorry, I have a habit of thinking while I type (just check out the ruin preservation thread,) which often leads to contradictions. I'm not sure I believe the lord ruler to be a hemalurgist, I don't think he'd want to give himself any unnecessary weaknesses, hes' powerful enough already.
-
I seem to remember two particular Mistborn 1 annotations. The first said SEEMED to reference that the Lord Ruler was a Hemalurgist--of course, since I don't remember which one it is, you shouldn't believe me at all there (and I remember it was a really weak reference, anyways). The second, however, I remember in greater detail. Brandon said that it would take him "three books to explain why the Lord Ruler is so powerful".
So, we don't have the full picture of the Lord Ruler just yet.
EDIT:
Maybe Allomancy and Hemalurgy did exist before the Ascension. It seems that Alendi's piercings being Hemalurgical in nature is a pretty popular theory. If they are Hemalurgical, then, we know that Hemalurgy exists in some form before the Ascension.
-
Maybe Hemalurgy is just the process of passing the abilities of one onto another.
IDEA
What if that's how the inquisitors get allomancy? I know darxbane touched on this before, he said that what if the spikes are all different metals and a differetn misting is used for each spike. There are 11 spikes, right. Well if we assume they have one allomatic ability to start, then seven spikes cover the other basic metals, so seven misting sacrifices. As far as we know only mistbron can use the high metals, (excepting the 15 and possibly 16), so the eighth may be a mistborn sacrifice, then a a skaa, or several are sacrificed to pass on the allomancy enhancement ability, which is what cause inquisitors to repel the mists, because it's not the true form, the one Vin uses to draw on the mist, and then the last two spikes are by sacrificeing feruchamists maybe, to pass on the fast healing ability of gold, and another ability, or perhaps the 11th spike is what causes gives them their "eyesight." It could also be a second skaa sacrifice. This would reinforce why inquisitors are so hard to make, the lord ruler would have hunt down a feruchemist, get a mistborn, seven mistings, and then sacrifice them all to make one inquisitor. He would also have to track down a skaa with the enhancement ability/ mist magic (for lack of a a better term).
Alendi MIGHT have used Hemalurgy too, in order to gain great prowess as a warrior, talented warriors were scarificed, and their abilites were passed into his earrings. Intersting, eh?
-
Ok, I know that the theory of the different spikes having different allomantic properties is a popular one, but it is called the "Steel Ministry" and I always took that to mean that all of their spikes were steel. I know it doesn't say anywhere that they are all steel, at least not that I can recall, but it is what I thought when I read it.
As for how they become full Mistborn, I have no idea. I always assumed it had something to do with having a bunch of spikes in your body switching around the flow and what not of your blood and bodily fluids. Or maybe the making of Inquisitors is what causes the "break", or kills the person....either way. Just my thoughts.
-
What is theorized here is that they are called steel inquisitors because the steel spike is the most important. I agreed with you, I thought they were all the same, until someon pointed out that when Sazed looked at marsh's, the eye spikes were made of two different metals.
-
I am obviously in great need of a re-read.
-
it seems that there would not be so many inquisitors if each one needed 8 mistings, a mistborn and 2 feuromachers. 8 rare people, 1 very rare person (and besides from a few - always noble) and 2 extremely rare people, mostly residing somewhere else than the lord ruler...
-
I agree that the Feruchemist and Mistborn sacrifices would be a little much. It would be hard enough to find Mistings to sacrifice. My theory was that sacrificing Mistings made the piercings more potent. They were obviously able to create Inquisitors with just the slaves at the Conventical.
-
OK, but what happens then to the feruchemists that the lord ruler catches? It always says that the keepers must remain in hiding, but what happens when they do, and like I said, perhaps it's only one feruchmist, still, I admit, it's a stretch but remember, there's only like 20 inquisitors in the entire empire, is it such a stretch that the lord ruler couldn't have caught at least 20, in the past 100 or so years, (or more, Inquisitors are longm lived, remember). As for mistborn, I'm sure he could find 20. I admit my theory is still weak in some places, but If they just use mistings to get their powers, how can they burn atium, how do they heal so quickly? And I still am definately sticking to my Skaa theory, I'm sure they have to power to amplify allomancy.
And as for the inquisitors created at the conventicle, who says they are complete inquisitors, maybe they are just partial ones, like Zane. Maybe they just have the enhancement ability, from the Skaa slaves, and they are seeking to complete themselves, byt killing off the keeperes, and then dragging their bodies off with them for their hemalurgic rituals.
-
We would have to assume that he has caught Feruchemists recently. It appears that they do an excellent job of hiding in plain sight, and there doesn't seem to be any way to detect them.
-
How do we really know though, er've only met two: Sazed and Twyndyl, and we've only seen Sazed during the lord ruler's rule, I don't think it is much of a stretch that at least one feruchemist could have been caught every 5 years or so, very uncommon, but think of all that has happened to you in the last five years, surely that is enought margin for at least one feruchemist to slip up and get caught, after all, Sazed did get caught in the last book, and whose to say that one wasn't caught a while ago and saved until a new inquisitor was chosen. I'm not saying my theory is correct, I'm just trying to point out that it's definately within the realm of possibility that someone like the lrod ruler could catch a keeper once and a while.
-
It's actually referenced a couple of times in MB1 that the Lord Ruler believed that the Keepers were completely eradicated. I find it quite unlikely and convoluted for there to be a massive conspiracy surrounding Feruchemist sacrifices like that.
However, you have to realize, in MB1, Brandon makes a point to describe how the Ministry executes skaa allomancers in deep detail. Blood is involved in that, by the way...
-
That's right. What a horrible way to go; hanged by the inside of the throat like a foul-hooked fish. The theory is possible, but it just doesn't seem very probable to me. It's makes the Inquisitors a little too hard to create. It's bad enough that, if a spike of Atium is required, it would use enough of the metal to buy an entire plantation or more. Anyway, I reread the last few pages of MB2 again, and I started to wonder why the Mist Spirit could be seen at the well, even though there was no mist there. the description of Vin entering the pool of metal is interesting, also.
-
Well, the Lord Ruler said they are really hard to replace.
Okay people, no more Hemalurgy talk unless its in direct relation with the Mists. That's what we are focusing on here, and we are getting way off-topic.
-
Chaos you stated:
In fact, I'm beginning to think we all have it backwards. Our normal analysis says that when we use Allomancy, the mists move. That's cause and effect. The Allomancy--cause--makes the mists move--effect. Well, switch that around. An Allomancer uses his or her subconsious, and somehow that channels the mists--pulling the mists towards the Allomancer--and that, in turn, lets the metals burn. The mists are the cause, rather than being the effect.
So...
If the mists are really the "cause" of the metal burning, then why are Allomancers able to burn their metals during the day. The mists have only recently started appearing during the day, correct? ???
-
Ok, I admit it, my theory is out to lunch, the lord ruler probably couldn't catch a keeper, but if that's true, than how do they heal so fast. I'd guess what it takes to make an inquisitor is different than we thought, I still think the skaa blood has something to do with it (sorry for that last bit of hemalurgical stuff, I'll stop now, see that thread for more details, I guess.)
Anyways, yes the mists recently came during the day, but here's a thought, everyone always says the mists just appear. What if the mists are always there, just the way the sun shines renders them invisible, and the reason they come during the day now, is because they are growing thicker and stronger? Just a thought.
-
It's a fundamental theory of physics that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. The mists aren't "destroyed" when the sun comes out. I don't exactly know how, but if they were destroyed daily, that would mean they would need to be "recreated" each day. Which is so HIGHLY unlikely and impossible that we should not even go off on a tangent on that one :P
-
Well they wouldn't be destroyed when they came out, they would just fase and evaporate, into vapour, not destroyed, just changed, unless of course I'm riught, and they are always there.
-
I have a question? Does the Mist Spirit only appear when the mists start coming during the day and killing people, or was it there all the time, it just wasn;t interested in Vin until now. If my theory about Preservation is right, it could be that Preservation was just trapped recently. It's been stated the the lord ruler is preservation to the extreme right, well, what if the lord ruler was holding back the mists by freeing preservation from them, and when he died, ruin was able to trap preservation in the mists again. Just thinking aloud here, just something for you guys to think about.
-
Something wasn't mentionned about the mist that could maybe help us figuring it out. Most of the times, the books say that the mist is moving around the Mistings and Mistborn, but I remember reading twice of the mist moving AWAY from mistborn. One it was from Zane and another one from Vin herself, Elend makes the remarks on that second one... I have to find the passages, both in MB2 to see the context.
As someone else said... I'll be back.
-
It definitely happened, but on three occaisions. The other time was when Vin fought Rashek. She notices that the mists are being pushed away by the Inquisitors. This is how we have connected Hemalurgy to Vin. Zane has a metal spike in his chest, and he repels the mists. Vin drew on the mists at the end of book one, but only after her earring was torn from her ear by the Fraud Ruler. She has been unable to recreate this because her earring has Hemallurgical properties, and she has been wearing it every time she has tried. It is why she can feel the well pulsing, why Zane hears a voice in his head, and why Marsh could no longer control himself. All is due to Hemallurgy. It seems that the mists react based on the amount of Hemallurgy metal is in one's body. Vin's very small earring didn't start pushing away the mists until she got very close to the Well, and only after it had reached its full millenial power cycle, yet the Inquisitor's effect was quite obvious. It is believed that Hemallurgy repels the mists because it is a fabricated or unnatural power. It could also be derived from a power that is opposite the power of the Mists. Or [evil grin], Hemallurgy could repel the Mists because they come from the same power, like to positive poles of a magnet! I can't wait for Coma and Chaos to read this. Ha! :-*
-
I think Brandon is a great writer. ;) Everything's so well thought-out, and the clues are there.
-
You give me a lot to think about, Darxbane. I have to admit I never gave a thought to hemallurgy before I came here. But I wanted to read these passages about the mist and I just cant right now. My thinking is, if the mist has a mind of its own (not the Mist Spirit, but the mist swirls), it would not act only because of hemallurgy, but it would take into consideration a few other things. I do not think the mist was always fleeing Zane - cant affirm it though, I have to read the whole of Mistborn 2 first - , except when he really fights Vin. If the inquisitors were not supporting the mist action, why would they stick around them ? I got to find those passages and give them some serious thinking.
-
Whoa whoa whoa. Hold up. Zane repels the mists? I don't remember that at all!
If you happen to have page numbers for reference, that would be great. I think I just never cared for Zane's viewpoint, so I could have missed that clue entirely.
-
Whoa whoa whoa. Hold up. Zane repels the mists? I don't remember that at all!
Are you sure? I'm sure you've commented about that before.
Interesting theory darxbane, it would definately make sense the who opposites attract, likes repel. Allomancy is a lot like a science, and with all the pushing and pulling and metal, your theory would make sense. That would make allomancy the opposite of the mists (but what does it mean for people who can draw upon this mist like Vin, is drawing on them the same reaction as the swirling of the mist around allomancers?
-
About Zane p. 445
Zane stood on the balcony, his figure a black silhouette in the mists. He stepped forward, the mist following around him, as it did around anyone burning metals. And yet... it also seemed to be pushing away from him slightly.
I agree, it is not much, but it is there. However it is the only mention, to my knowledge... As for Vin, I just can't remember when otherwise I'd go straight to the chapter, but it is Elend that notices.
-
No, I've completely missed that part entirely, and I've certainly never mentioned that Zane actually pushes away the mists. I've mentioned Zane has a spike--which, to be fair, I had missed before I came to TWG and reread WoA after learning of that. It's one of those "Wth, that's actually IN there!?" moments.
As I've said before, I have never EVER liked Zane. Rereading Well of Ascension, and I still don't like him. My brain must automatically tune out that way.
So, what does that quote tell us? Mists can be moving towards you (from the Allomancy), but it can also be pushing away simultaneously. Obviously, the spike (plus Hemalurgy) is the thing that is causing the mists pushing away. This tells us something: the more metal in your body, the more the mists push away, because of course, Steel Inquisitors have more metal and it is blatantly obvious that they are pushing the mists away. With Zane, its barely noticeable.
That could be the biggest thing about Hemalurgy we've figured out as of yet.
-
Yes the number of spikes or amount of metal woud be proportionate to the number of skaa sacrifices (still going with this one guys, sorry if you're tired of it), which would increase the amount the mists push away, the mists also push away more when directly using something related to hemalurgy. For example, when Vin has her earing in, the mists still curl aroudn her all the time, she just can't draw on them, it is only when the she is using th earring to hear the pulsing of the well that she pushes the mists away, and even then, it's only when the pulsing grows loud she can tell exactly where the well is.
-
Ah ! By the way ! I just found that Vin's earring was made of steel. I don't understand how it could be used by feruchemy though and be so important as to stop Vin from chanelling the mist.
-
Steel, are you sure??? I was sure it was copper. Or was it bronze. I know it definately wasn't steel.
That reminds me, the common opinion is that Vin can peirce copper clouds because of her bronze earing which enhances her seeking abilities, but remember, she is also extremely skilled as soothing, Breeze and kelsier always say she got good very quickly, too quickly, prehaps her seeking isn't the only ability being enhanced.
-
She gripped the bit of obsidian in her hand, tucked the book into her overalls, and pocketed the pebbles. The earring she put in her ear--it was a very simple, steel thing. Little more than a stud, not even worth stealing, which was why she didn't fear leaving it in the back room. Still, Vin had rarely worn it, for fear that the ornamentation would make her look more feminine.
Mistborn chapter 3, when she plans on leaving Camon. I think Vin's ability were all enhanced. Left to find out how.
-
Hmm, I could've sworn in WoA it said it was bronze.
-
Maybe Brandon forgot it was steel in Mistborn 1 and wrote bronze in the Well ? We have to find the passage. Would that be possible ? Someone would have to find either the passage where it says that it's bronze or the original thread where it was guessed it was.
-
I'd say it's in the middle. Vin explains to Elend that time when her mother killed her sister (it should be there).
However, I loaned out my WoA copy for now, so I'll have to sit this one out.
-
Maybe it doesn't matter what metal the earring is then, or maybe it is steel, and in Hemalurgy, Steel spikes enhance allomancy, and the other one's do something different, and Vin and Zane both have steel spikes, so only their allomancy is enhanced. Maybe the other spikes increase lifespan, healing, provide the inquisitors with their sight, etc.
-
I have to remember to check WoA again. It may be that we assumed the earring was bronze to fit our theories. And don't think I don't see you winking up there, Mok! ::)
-
Official answer: The earring is bronze...with a steel-colored/silver-colored metallic coating which has gradually worn away.
In the initial drafts I think the earring was silver. Brandon changed it to bronze for obvious reasons, but stuck in that bit about its coating color (in MB2) just in case any reference (such as the one Vintage found) slipped through.
-
Thanks for the info, Ookla. This could have gone on for days otherwise. :D
-
So the earring is bronze for sure then, if we are right about hemalurgy, then that explains why Vin can pierce copper clouds, but it doesn't explain why she is soo good at soothing or why she is able to almost mathc kelsier in a push match after a month of training, even though he is way heavier.
-
I think the explanation for that is just what it says in the book. Soothing she learned from long necessity and unintentional practice, making do with very little raw material. Kelsier never really practiced soothing; he didn't have the patience to learn its subtleties. Vin still isn't as good as Breeze though (except perhaps in raw power, especially using duralumin).
Matching Kelsier at pushing... Maybe that's just because of her bloodline. Didn't TenSoon say something about allomancers being much stronger in the past? I don't remember the specifics of that practice session...how was she anchored?
-
Notice how Ookla said "changed it to bronze for obvious reasons". Thanks for confirming that small part of the theory :P
-
Right. Vin is stronger because her power is less diluted. she was up against a tree and Kelsier was up against one of the city walls. The tree began to break from the force, but she wouldn't stop. That would be a great scene in the movie, by the way. That coin had to be as thin as a sheet of paper afterwards.
-
I think it's more than her pure blood line that gives Vin her power, there's something else there, I think.
-
She drinks Red Bull with raw eggs every morning ;D Seeing as her power is so close to Zane's, it would make sense that her bloodline is a major factor. However, seeing as they both also had Hemallurgy piercings, that could be part of it, too. Although, losing her earring didn't make her less powerful. She began to see the blue lines coming from Rashek's armbands before she drew upon the mists. She pushed harder because she realized that what she had been told was not exactly true. Everyone assumed it was impossible to manipulate metal within one's body, but in fact you just needed enough power. I bet duralumin with the mists would make for some ridiculous ability. She could probably rip an Inquisitor apart (wouldn't that be cool).
-
EUOL stands for Evil Undead OverLord. (It's partially a reference to this (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html))
For example, look at the Hemalurgy thread at my gigantic, 3000-word post, and you'll distinctly see that I figured out the meaning of when I referenced this Sazed quote:
All the legends agree that the first Allomancers appeared when the mists came out.
Heh heh heh. You want to think you've got that one figured out.
(Any further discussion of this should be continued in some other thread, though.)
(Ported from "Sad Day" topic).
That's just what you want me to think, Ookla! I'm too smart for reverse-psychology to succeed!
Either that or I'm a complete madman.
-
I am having trouble finding your explanation of that phrase. Is it the fact that Alendi was being followed by the Mist Spirit before he was killed? Which of course would mean that the Mists were around before Rashek took the Well's power. As stated before, everything said by the characters has to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when they are quoting historical "facts" from metalminds. Chaos, If you could post that particular thought, I would love to read it.
-
Maybe the Mist Spirit is only a form that Preservation took to be able to act somehow. After all, the mist itself cannot seem to be able to do much (and there must be something else that hides in the mist during the day for it to kill). The Mist Spirit can use a metal knife...
-
That is certainly possible. Did it actually use a physical knife? I thought it just formed the mists into a sharp object or something like that.
-
Well, what I meant with the problem-solving aspects of the quote in question was that, since it is clear the mists existed in some form before the Ascension, the Lord Ruler did something to them to create Allomancy.
You see, my logic is that Allomancy is a result of the mists. The mists allow you to burn metals. I have two primary pieces of evidence to support this:
1. The mists come towards you as you use Allomancy. The mists would need to be present in your stomach to "burn" the metals, so the interaction of the mind to use Allomancy is actually the method of pulling the mists towards you so you CAN use Allomancy.
2. Vin draws upon the mists, which increased her Allomantic ability. Now it seems so painfully obvious. Allomancers are always channeling the mists to use their magic, so if you were Vin, and were suddenly able to channel a lot more of the mists, you could burn more metals.
Hope that made sense... I always worry that my logic is a bit too roundabout to be cohesive.
Now, if Allomancy is the result of mist-pulling and the mists existed before the Ascension, then perhaps a primary thing the Lord Ruler did to the mists was to "enable" them to be pulled. The mists aren't going to do it by itself, or else, we would've seen Allomancers before the Ascension.
You could say the 15th metal (which was unofficially coined "Partum" recently--see the 16th Metal topic) granted Allomancy. But, you would need to burn said metal to gain the Allomantic abilities. It's like the chicken and the egg: how can you gain Allomancy--which if you burned Partum, you would get--if you don't already have Allomancy to begin with?
I can think of two explanations. First, it could be that Partum doesn't actually give with Allomancy with Allomantic burning, but with the use of a different magic system. A second, more likely, explanation is that the Lord Ruler created the metal to pull the mists to an Allomancer (Note that atium is not a real metal. This must be intentional on Brandon's part, so we can assume that Partum (15th metal) and Dispartum (16th metal) can also be an imagined metal). Thus, the Lord Ruler essentially changed the way the mists interact with people.
Or, conversely, the Lord Ruler changed the mists directly with the power of Preservation. It has been shown--and I believe--that Ruin and Preservation act through the mists. Ruin uses the Deepness-mists, and Preservation through the mist-spirit (supposedly). The Well of Ascension has Ruin in it, or Preservation, or both. Either way, the Lord Ruler would have the ultimate way to use the mists by gaining any of those forces.
Since I am utterly convinced that the three magics are based upon the mists and R/P utilize the mists for their will, it can be assumed that R/P can affect the magic systems (because anything based on the mists can be utilized by R and P both). I presume this is how Ruin can manipulate the Terris Prophecies in the metalminds--while it hasn't been shown that Feruchemy is mist-based, it seems to be a logical supposition, and it explains Ruin's manipulation of Feruchemy. Also, Ruin uses Hemalurgy somehow to talk to people with Hemalurgic metals in them. We can only imagine how insanely powerful Ruin could be with Allomancy.
Last tangent: I just thought of a way to defeat Ruin. Vin could destroy the mists. Don't ask me how, but if Ruin uses the mists to perform its will, then wouldn't destroying its most powerful tool essentially cripple it forever? Unfortunately, that would also mean our three magic systems are also destroyed, but at least Ruin is defeated.
Back on task, the Lord Ruler created Allomancy, literally, by bringing out the mists and allowing the mists to be pulled. So, it can be fairly easy to think that the legends for the creation of Allomancers would involve the mists with them. The mists and Allomancy are irrevocably intertwined.
-
1. The mists come towards you as you use Allomancy. The mists would need to be present in your stomach to "burn" the metals, so the interaction of the mind to use Allomancy is actually the method of pulling the mists towards you so you CAN use Allomancy.
I like a lot of your logic in this post, but one part about this part specifically doesn't sit well with me.
You can burn metals during the day. You can also burn them inside. Plus, if the mists were around and you breathed them in, they would be in your lungs (not your stomach) where they wouldn't stay long.
I guess it could be possible that you store up the mist inside you, and it fuels your allomancy, but it seems like if that was the case we would of had some subtle sign about it.
True, we don't know exactly why Vin was able to "draw upon the mist" and what exactly that did, but we do know that in every other case in the book someone has used allomancy, the only thing they needed was the metal (and the skill of a Misting/Mistborn). With the metal they could use it, without the metal they couldn't.
-
Well, I think the mists are present, day or night. Think of it from a Physics perspective: there exists the Law of Conservation of Mass. It means that matter can't be created or destroyed. Now, I understand this is fantasy so we can manipulate physical laws like that, but come on. Do the mists get "destroyed" just because it's daytime (during the LR's time, of course)? That would mean the Lord Ruler would need to create a new massive set of mists every nighttime when they came out, which would be ridiculous. He's not that powerful.
Just because we can't see the mists doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the day or in buildings. They could just be invisible, for all we know.
(Then again, I don't really know. But when I put it like that, it sounds awfully good, right?)
-
Without quoting any coservation laws, I can agree with Chaos. If the mists are a mystical force, then they could exist at all times, but can only be ssen in cool and/or low-light situations. The mists are now increasingly able to overcome the restrictions caused by daylight and/or heat and be visible even during the day.
-
I'm going to be a physics major in the fall. It's kind of my duty to quote laws of physics.
-
There are no laws, just theories that as of now can not be refuted (Tranlsation: There is always another secret) ;)
-
Well, I think the mists are present, day or night. Think of it from a Physics perspective: there exists the Law of Conservation of Mass. It means that matter can't be created or destroyed. Now, I understand this is fantasy so we can manipulate physical laws like that, but come on. Do the mists get "destroyed" just because it's daytime (during the LR's time, of course)? That would mean the Lord Ruler would need to create a new massive set of mists every nighttime when they came out, which would be ridiculous. He's not that powerful.
Just because we can't see the mists doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the day or in buildings. They could just be invisible, for all we know.
(Then again, I don't really know. But when I put it like that, it sounds awfully good, right?)
The only evidence I can think of that goes against that logic, is that whenever talk about the mist being there or not being there, they typically (if I remember correctly, which might not be the case) don't say that it 'appears' or "disappears' but rather they use words like "coming" and "going."
This would imply that the mist isn't just something that is always there, and just becomes visible or not, but it's something that actually moves across the land.
I think this is also evident when you look at it inside buildings. In the very first chapter when Kell opens the door to the Skaa hovel, the mists come in through the door. They don't just materialize around the door. The same goes for when Vin fights Zane. The mist is described as entering the room.
I know that isn't a direct contradiction to your theory, but again, Brandon knows the answers, and if it was something like that I assume he would of used different words when describing these things. (From this book and his others he does seem to be very careful when choosing particular words)
-
You're right, I've got nothing on that. I'll admit the theory is loose in that regard. Either way, we are progressing upwards in our knowledge, regardless.
-
Why did I miss a couple days of posting, there's so much going on here!
Anyway, IThe mists going away in the day and coming back, sin't them being destroyed and then recreated, it could just be like real mist, evaporatiing under the hot rays of the sun, and then condensing again in the cool night, thier not being destroyed in the day just changed. There is of course something magical about them still, but ithink that's why the mists come and go, I think Kelsier even says this when he enters a building he says the mists "evaporate," I believe, so i'm guessing that's how it works.
AS for your theory Chaos, I like it, but I also still like my mist magic skaa theory.
Also I still think that the mists are a tool of ruin and he used it to trap preservation (in the form of the mistspirit), because the mists are change, preservation's opposite, and preservation used the power of creation ( the opposite of destruction) to trap ruin.
-
I've gone through some chapters (and annotations) checking specifically for Mist info.
Like Comatose mentioned, the mist is likely to have some kind of common link to our own mist. For instance Mist is wet and wets things.
Vin landed softly on the mist-slicked cobblestones
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud. They dampened, softened, shaded.
More dense than a simple fog and more constant than any normal weather pattern
She landed skidding on mist-wetted feet.
She fell to a crouch as the men died, holding the staff in one hand, her other hand resting against the mist-wetted cobbles.
It's just mist, he told himself. Water vapor. Nothing to fear.
So, I presume that like regular mist, when the sun comes up, it just transforms itself into its gaz form. Talking about physic, I kind of remember that matter has 3 forms - solid, liquid, gaz ; and liquid is sort of before gaz... (Thanks to Mr Nye, the Science Guy :D ). The transition, though, seems quite sudden :
They (the mists) puffed into existence as darkness fell, growing like tangles of translucent vines, twisting and wrapping around one another.
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud.
The mist is formed of what ? Elend refers it as "just mist. Water vapor", but he doesn't mention its curls. If it is just water vapor, then it's mixed with ash enabling people to see its movement otherwise there would be nothing to see. I have to conclude to that part that the ash isn't the mist but is what makes it visible, nothing more.
That was to take care of the physic side of things.
I believe though that being somehow related to the three magic system, the mist has to be neutral, neither from Ruin or Preservation, and that would enable it to be used by both sides.
Regarding the Mist Spirit, I found a very intersting annotation:
By the time I finished this book, I realized that--for the mythology I wanted--there could only be a single mist spirit.
So the Mist Spirit could be thought as one entity. Like Comatose, I think it is Preservation because it seeks life ( yes, I know, sticking a knife into a body's person is a very strange way to seek life - unless you need to do it in order to force a person to snap right after - and I kind of recall it wanted to do it with Alendi but did not succeed, then ).
Does this help anyone ?
-
I wonder ,does the lord ruler use the mists as well? We know he has some fascination with them, he has those fancy windows remember? That would explain why he is so powerful.
Oh, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but the Lord Ruler I'm pretty sure doesn't use hemalurgy, there's omething else special aobut him, he can even push glass, as well as the metals in peoples stomachs, the inquisitors can't do that with all their spikes, and they are the most powerful hemalurgists we know of, and the lord ruler has no visible spikes, and his only "Piercings," would be the ones that protect his age bracelets.
Also, how does the lord ruler tell when people are lying, I was thinking maybe he is so good a tin, he can hear people's heartbeat, and tell when it quickens, but that still doesn't explain everything. I'm sure there's some other powers he has that doesn't come from allomancy and feruchemy, and I'm sure he doesn't use hemalurgy, after all he says he is NOT some inquisitor with ENDOWED fabrications. Endowed, see, that kind proves our theory that hemalurgy is the ritual itself, and those with hemalurgy don't actually use it, they are creations of it. THe inquisitors just use allomancy, and are strengthed by the power endowed upon them by the lord ruler, however the lord ruler did NOT perform these rituals upon himself. I'm also pretty sure you needsomeone else to do the ritual for you, and I don't think the lord ruler would be comfortable trusting someone else to give him power, he'd want to get it himself.
-
rofl
My ! She is stubborn ! Ok
Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. . . .
Now, go and argue with Brandon.
edit - Sorry, it must sound harsh. But can we just not discuss this particular point and look more for the hows and whys ?
-
I wonder ,does the lord ruler use the mists as well? We know he has some fascination with them, he has those fancy windows remember? That would explain why he is so powerful.
Oh, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but the Lord Ruler I'm pretty sure doesn't use hemalurgy, there's omething else special aobut him, he can even push glass, as well as the metals in peoples stomachs, the inquisitors can't do that with all their spikes, and they are the most powerful hemalurgists we know of, and the lord ruler has no visible spikes, and his only "Piercings," would be the ones that protect his age bracelets.
Also, how does the lord ruler tell when people are lying, I was thinking maybe he is so good a tin, he can hear people's heartbeat, and tell when it quickens, but that still doesn't explain everything. I'm sure there's some other powers he has that doesn't come from allomancy and feruchemy, and I'm sure he doesn't use hemalurgy, after all he says he is NOT some inquisitor with ENDOWED fabrications. Endowed, see, that kind proves our theory that hemalurgy is the ritual itself, and those with hemalurgy don't actually use it, they are creations of it. THe inquisitors just use allomancy, and are strengthed by the power endowed upon them by the lord ruler, however the lord ruler did NOT perform these rituals upon himself. I'm also pretty sure you needsomeone else to do the ritual for you, and I don't think the lord ruler would be comfortable trusting someone else to give him power, he'd want to get it himself.
I was reading the annotations again and literally just a few seconds ago came across this from the one for chapter 36 part 3.
I figured it would make sense that the Lord Ruler would be so old, so experienced, and so powerful that he wouldn't be able to be lied to. He's been around people for centuries and centuries. It's very hard to fool him.
His extreme power in Allomancy takes a little bit more explaining. It'll take me three books to get to the real reasons for that one. So, you'll need to be patient.
-
It's he, just so you know vintage.
And I guess I really shoudl read those annotations, I jsut don't get how the lrod ruler could be getting power from hemalurgy, there are obviously things we haven't even imagined that are capable with hemalurgy.
OK, I read than annotation, here's what I found:
Making Inquisitors via Hemalurgy requires killing other people (see book three for an explanation of the process) so there's a lot of mess involved.
VIA, that pretty much confirms our suspicions about hemalurgy, it being a process not a power.
Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. .
And there it is, he obviously isn't a product of hemalurgy though, I'd say he has power because he is able to create inquisitors, that's what I'd say.
Two attributes that can be stored up by Feruchemists, by the way, are healing and the ability to move very quickly. The Lord Ruler had access to both of these abilities in extreme, augmented ways, which was part of what has made him so powerful.
This still makes me think I'm right, he's so powerful because of his feruchemy and allomancy combined, he might use hemalurgy, but I don't think he used it on himself, you notice how int he above quote, Brandon says if he would have pulled of the bracelets instead, meaning his feruchemical weakness, so the bracelets piercing his arms have nothing to do with hemalurgy, if that's true than what does?
Perhaps that's what he uses to limit Ruin's influence.
-
It's he, just so you know vintage.
And I guess I really shoudl read those annotations, I jsut don't get how the lrod ruler could be getting power from hemalurgy, there are obviously things we haven't even imagined that are capable with hemalurgy.
OK, I read than annotation, here's what I found:
Making Inquisitors via Hemalurgy requires killing other people (see book three for an explanation of the process) so there's a lot of mess involved.
VIA, that pretty much confirms our suspicions about hemalurgy, it being a process not a power.
Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. .
And there it is, he obviously isn't a product of hemalurgy though, I'd say he has power because he is able to create inquisitors, that's what I'd say.
Two attributes that can be stored up by Feruchemists, by the way, are healing and the ability to move very quickly. The Lord Ruler had access to both of these abilities in extreme, augmented ways, which was part of what has made him so powerful.
This still makes me think I'm right, he's so powerful because of his feruchemy and allomancy combined, he might use hemalurgy, but I don't think he used it on himself, you notice how int he above quote, Brandon says if he would have pulled of the bracelets instead, meaning his feruchemical weakness, so the bracelets piercing his arms have nothing to do with hemalurgy, if that's true than what does?
Perhaps that's what he uses to limit Ruin's influence.
You seem to contradict yourself here.
First, you say that Hemalurgy is a process, not a power.
Then you quote something saying his power comes partially from Hemalurgy, meaning that he's used the process on himself.
Then you say it's just his feruchemy and allomancy, and he didn't use it on himself.
I think the more likely conclusion is that if hemalurgy is a process, then maybe that is why his feruchemy and allomancy are so strong. Maybe that's what it does.
-
Sorry, I wasn't very clear.
What I'm trying to say is, the hemalurgy whe know of is mostly likely the process used to create the inquisitors. I'm saying the lord ruler practices this sort of hemalurgy only in the form of creating inquisitors, and if he does gain powers from hemalurgy in some other way, it's not the same as the hemalurgy we know, because of the lack of spikes. I hope this isn't sounding contradictory, it makes sense up here in my head. He obviously is extra powerful in someway, so he's enhanceing his allomancy and possibly feruchemy some how. I know he get's his healing from burning his feruchemical gold, his strength from burning pewter storages, his age from atium storages, and his speed from burning steel storages, that's what I was talking about with the feruchemy quote. His extremly powerful pushes and pulls and soothing are still unexplained, so there could very well be some form of allomancy enhancement there, that uses a similar process to hemalurgy, and it is probably classified as hemalurgy, but it is not the same hemalurgy we've seen so far. WE already know there are different types, with Vin, Zane, the Inquisitors, and Alend, who didn't have allomancy, so I guess, to summarize it all:
I think that if the lord ruler DOES use hemalurgy(I know it says in the annotation, it just doesn't seem right, I'll get proved wrong later) for gaining power, and not jsut for making inquisitors, than it is not the same sort of power he has endowed the inquisitors with because of the lack of spikes, and the huge difference in power between him and the inquisitors despite this.
-
As topic creator, I feel it is my duty to tell you people to post your Hemalurgy stuff in, well, the Hemalurgy thread. Now, if you happen to have a legitimate theory for Hemalurgy pushing away the mists, then that would be acceptable, but I still think that is more correct to post in the Hemalurgy thread.
So... move those thoughts to the Hemalurgy thread, please! I shall attempt to refute my colleague Comatose there.
Moving on to Mists.
AS for your theory Chaos, I like it, but I also still like my mist magic skaa theory.
Also I still think that the mists are a tool of ruin and he used it to trap preservation (in the form of the mistspirit), because the mists are change, preservation's opposite, and preservation used the power of creation ( the opposite of destruction) to trap ruin.
Perfectly honestly, your skaa magic theory is a bunch of crock :P Skaa is basically just a nice way of saying "not nobles", so I think skaa do not inherently have special abilities unless they are half-breeds.
Of course, I have a crazy theory that Preservation is somehow ash. I have absolutely no basis to support this, and I'll be the first to admit that it is crazy. But! I can neither refute Comatose's skaa magic theory, nor can he refute my Preservation-ash theory, so the theory is no more valid than any other. More crazy, perhaps, but no more valid.
I've gone through some chapters (and annotations) checking specifically for Mist info.
Like Comatose mentioned, the mist is likely to have some kind of common link to our own mist. For instance Mist is wet and wets things.
Vin landed softly on the mist-slicked cobblestones
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud. They dampened, softened, shaded.
More dense than a simple fog and more constant than any normal weather pattern
She landed skidding on mist-wetted feet.
She fell to a crouch as the men died, holding the staff in one hand, her other hand resting against the mist-wetted cobbles.
It's just mist, he told himself. Water vapor. Nothing to fear.
So, I presume that like regular mist, when the sun comes up, it just transforms itself into its gaz form. Talking about physic, I kind of remember that matter has 3 forms - solid, liquid, gaz ; and liquid is sort of before gaz... (Thanks to Mr Nye, the Science Guy :D ). The transition, though, seems quite sudden :
They (the mists) puffed into existence as darkness fell, growing like tangles of translucent vines, twisting and wrapping around one another.
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud.
The mist is formed of what ? Elend refers it as "just mist. Water vapor", but he doesn't mention its curls. If it is just water vapor, then it's mixed with ash enabling people to see its movement otherwise there would be nothing to see. I have to conclude to that part that the ash isn't the mist but is what makes it visible, nothing more.
That was to take care of the physic side of things.
I believe though that being somehow related to the three magic system, the mist has to be neutral, neither from Ruin or Preservation, and that would enable it to be used by both sides.
Regarding the Mist Spirit, I found a very intersting annotation:
By the time I finished this book, I realized that--for the mythology I wanted--there could only be a single mist spirit.
So the Mist Spirit could be thought as one entity. Like Comatose, I think it is Preservation because it seeks life ( yes, I know, sticking a knife into a body's person is a very strange way to seek life - unless you need to do it in order to force a person to snap right after - and I kind of recall it wanted to do it with Alendi but did not succeed, then ).
Does this help anyone ?
As our resident physicist (or at least, physicist to be, I guess, since I don't start college until August) I think it is my duty to say that water vapor is already a gas. The three common states of matter are solid, liquid, and gas. Water has names for all of them: ice, water, and water vapor, respectively. I don't know about you, but you can't evaporate a gas, because... it's already a gas. The only state of matter that is above that is a plasma, which normally occurs on the surface of the sun and in other, very specialized scenarios.
They (the mists) puffed into existence as darkness fell, growing like tangles of translucent vines, twisting and wrapping around one another.
But, at night the mists fell like a deep cloud.
The mist is formed of what ? Elend refers it as "just mist. Water vapor", but he doesn't mention its curls. If it is just water vapor, then it's mixed with ash enabling people to see its movement otherwise there would be nothing to see. I have to conclude to that part that the ash isn't the mist but is what makes it visible, nothing more.
And of course, just as I reference my insane ash theory, you have to ruin it with that. Way to go, jerk (just kidding)!
Ash... we need an ash topic...
-
Actually Mist isn't just water vapour, that's clear, it's condensation, that stage between gas and liquid, that's why you don't see huge clouds rising off of lakes, the vapours invisible, then when the water gets high enough into the air, it cools and makes clouds, when enough water droplets collect in the clouds, they become heavy and drop as precipitation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mist is just condensation that's dropped closer to the ground because of weather conditions, isn't it? So yes, Mist isn't a liquid but it's not water vapour, which is cleaer, I hope I explained that right, that's my understanding of things, weather or not the mists in the book work like this remains to be seen.
Maybe we should stop focusing on the how they appear and disappear and focus on the why, and what are the effects?
-
So here's a thought on a thread that hasn't been spoken on in a while...
What if there are two kinds of mist? Only we can't tell the difference, but one pushes away from hemalurgists, and the other from allomancers. One kills, the other doesn't. The Mist spirit did deny being responsible for the killings. Yes, the idea came to me after reading Prime, but the thought had been bugging me about the mist killing only some people. Though they were all Skaa, I think.
-
As pointed before somewhere over the rainbow, the Mist Spirit could be lying. We cannot confirm if it is responsible. I believe, yes, that they were all skaa but we should be investigating about those that survived to start to grasp some truth.
In the meantime, I wanted to report that I made a mistake, I thought that we could see the mist swirls because it was mixing with ash. I was wrong. The mist is white. It is actually a very thick fog, so thick you get wet from it. It evaporates (now, see...) when the sun comes out. I was thinking why is it still staying a bit in the day ? Then I remember, it stated to kill in winter. Maybe it's a colder winter than usual. Why wouldn't they have weather problems if we do ?
Moreover, the mist existed before the Lord Ruler's days. ;D I am so glad I find that one !
The mists are your friend, Vin. They hide you, they protect you... and they give you power. Ministry doctrine - something rarely shared with skaa - claims that the Mistborn are descendants of the only men who remained true to the Lord Ruler during the days before his Ascension. Other legends whisper that we are something beyond even the Lord Ruler's power, something that was born on that day when the mists first came upon the land.
;D When reading Mistborn 1, we read this passage quite fast... or *looks to see if Brandon is around and then whispers* we're bored by the allomancy lesson and our mind sleep. In all cases, we now know that Kelsier had information that most people didn't have, even Sazed did not know about some of the legends that Kelsier knew. Therefore I would say with quite a bit of assurance that the Mist existed before TLR, that allomancy existed also, like feruchemy and I would not be surprised that hemalurgy was around as well. That would certainly explain "the piercing of the hero" Alendi had.
-
That quote further substantiates my theory that the Mists are the reason that Allomancy works, in some way, because if Allomancy "came out with the mists", that would mean they have a symbiotic relationship.
-
I agree - let's not forget that Brandon's annotation indicates that the mists are fundamental to the three magic systems. We're back in theory Land. :D
-
I just read MB2 and i was thinking...what if the mist is not repelled when someone uses hemalurgy, but instead fed off of? The effect would look nearly the same, i think. This would not explain why it is attracted to Allomancy, and is probably wrong, but hey.
Also do we know of anyone who uses only hemalurgy? I'll have to reread the sections where Vin is sensing the mist spirit...
-
The thing is, Reaves, I think that Brandon himself used the word repels. Can you get some quote from the book that would seem to mean what you are saying ? Otherwise we all get crazy here. If you need proof of this, read the rest of this very thread lol
-
I think vintage is right, Brandon does use the word repels. Also, reaves, it's possible that inquisitors only use hemalurgy, though they may use allomancy as well. It's been speculated that Alendi was a hemalurgist, and he wasn't allomancer or feruchemist.
-
In the MB1 synopsis at the end of Well of Ascension, it says,
"While she was fighting him, she drew upon the mists somehow, burning them in place of metals."
-
However, we have no confirmation that this is related to hemalurgy. I am inclined to believe it has more to do with allomancy than hemalurgy.
-
What do you mean? We have never heard of this ability from any other pure Allomancer. However, we do see the same effect from the Inquisitors and Zane. Also Elend notices the same thing from Vin as they are walking toward the Well.
Quote
Zane stood on the balcony, his figure a black silhouette in the mists. He stepped forward, the mist following around him, as it did around anyone burning metals. And yet... it also seemed to be pushing away from him slightly.
I believe this is explained by the fact that Zane is both Allomancer and Hemalurgist. The mist follows him because he is an allomancer, and yet appears to be pushed away because he is unconsciously burning it. He also has more power than a vanilla allomancer, Vin notices his extreme control over Steelpushes. He in fact hovers in the air and can lower and raise himself slowly. Every other person we have ever seen who uses more than one magic system (eg Lord Ruler, Inquisitors, Vin) has more power/skill than others.
-
I think this talk is reserved for the Hemalurgy thread, mostly because that's where I'd like everything Hemalurgy-related to be (it's called "Comprehensive" for a reason :P). Not to say that Hemalurgy doesn't have to do with the mists... just we've been discussing this mist-hemalurgy thing for quite a while in that topic--to no avail--and it would be easier to just simplify it into the Comprehensive Hemalurgy topic.
-
Alright, Chaos, fine, I'll take my reply over to the hemalurgy thread. Please follow, everyone, I'm enjoying this particular discussion. I'll even give you a link to make your life really easy.
The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread Page 13 (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5745.msg121892#msg121892)
-
On the note of mists being entwined with all three magic systems, that really strucj me, we know it is attarcted to allomancy, and that Vin, at least, can use it to strengthen her allomancy, and that hemalurgy repels it, especially when it is being used: (IE, the mists only start pulling away from Vin when she is really listening to the well). Perhaps, it's more to do with Ruin and Preservation, maybe the mists ull away from things of ruin, and are attracted to preservation, and the reason Vin repels them, is because she is becoming more under ruin's nfluence at this point. We know know more than this though, how else do the mists interact with the magic systems, and how do they influence feruchemy. I have a hard time believeing the Feruchemy is JUST neutral and has nothing to do with the mists now, there has to be something more!
And about people who only use hemalurgy (sorry) we know that the inquisitors use SOME allomancy, because most of them are seekers to start out with, are they not. Marsh's recruitment seems to suppor this. If they could use anyone, why would they go to someone as new as marsh, even if he is hard working?
-
I don't know coma. I think if that were the case, the mists would be attracted and/or repelled at all times, rather than just when Vin was burning metals. I think it's the allomancy/hemalurgy itself that attracts/repels the mist.
And Yes, the inquisitors are all seekers. MB1 Chapter 7, page 141 in Paperback, I don't know about the hardcover. It's when Vin is first learning all the metals with Kelsier.
Vin paled. "Inquisitors can use allomancy?"
Kelsier nodded. "They're all Seekers - I'm not sure if that's because Seekers are chosen to become Inquisitors, or if the process of becoming an Inquisitor grants the power."
-
however, that doesn't mean seeking is their only ability. I believe them to be able to use all Allomantic abilities.
-
I'm continueing this discussio on the hemalurgy thread
-
first of all, i apologize for mancing this thread. But does anyone know if the mist leaves a body when it attacks someone? If so, is it just a corpse or is it a sack of bones or a pile of dust or what? I found this quote that might suggest the mists are not the deepness.
The Deepness must be destroyed, and apparently I’m the only
one who can do so. It ravages the world even now. If I don’t stop it
soon, there will be nothing left of this land but bones and dust.
Of course it could just be hyperbole but it struck me as odd.
-
Well if it leaves a corpse behind, it would eventually just be bones and dust. The mist in the day would kill of plant life as well. The only question I have is how would the mists get rid of bulidings?
-
The water would decay the buildings eventually, if nobody was around to take care of them.
Other than that, I agree with what's been said about the bodies decomposing into dirt and dust eventually.
-
Bones and dust is an allegory representing the world being barren, not to be taken literally.
-
But does anyone know if the mist leaves a body when it attacks someone?
Yes, it leaves a body. Sazed examines the body of that first victim we hear about, and later when he comes upon the dead village, there are corpses outside of a lot of the huts.
EDIT: And it seems to leave pretty normal-looking corpses, since Sazed isn't sure what killed them until he talks to the starving survivor inside the hut.
-
Agreed that the statment Bones and Dust is just a reference to what the world will be like.
-
Ok, just bumping this to the top again, Reeves said something in his final theory post that makes me think (sorry Reaves, I know you didn't want a discussion, but I couldn't resist!). Now normally when Reaves says anything about "Mist Burning," I usually just roll my eyes and move on, but I think he's on to something.
In his post Reaves says the mists are sort of like smoke, given off by allomancers burning metals, I'm not sure if this is entirely true, but It made me immediately think of the smoke-like mist in the well, what if it's being given off by the power of the well somehow?
Actually Reaves, for the most part I agree with you theory, except I think that it's Allomantic, not hemalurgic, Vin only get's this ability when her earring is pulled out, and she is unable to do it again when it is in.
-
yeah I have gone back and forth between Allomantic and Hemalurgic because of that very thing. Its just the only people who exhibit the "vanishing mist" thing ARE hemalurgists.
Anyway I know we've gone over this again and again, and I know you guys must be pretty tired of it ;) I guess we'll find out in a few days!!