Ruin and Preservation were not the only Shards of Adonalsium, though they are the only ones on Scadrial at the moment.(Scadrial is the planet Mistborn is on)
A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two. The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground.Quote
You've also seen one other manifestation like this....
Such as...this?
The "lake" was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.
If that's what you're hinting at...I never thought of the connection before! I just kept thinking of Aether of Night, and never thought of this pool at all.
Both are accurate, but the first is what I meant, as most people here don't have access to Aether.
The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.(Lerasium added by me)
Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation (Lerasium), it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)
So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.
Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.
You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call. You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power.
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?
What power made the monks in to 'demons'?
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?
What power made the monks in to 'demons'?
Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start. All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power. This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience. How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any. It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?
What power made the monks in to 'demons'?
Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start. All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power. This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience. How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any. It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.
I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.
Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?
Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?
Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?
I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.
Zas
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?
What power made the monks in to 'demons'?
Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start. All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power. This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience. How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any. It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.
I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.
Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?
Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?
Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?
I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.
Zas
Yeah, I did say it wasn't a strong case. I was just throwing it out there because Nightblood acts differently than anything else in Warbreaker, even with an in-story explanation. (And I put it wrong. I didn't mean to say Nightblood might be a shard, just that there might be some Shard that was involved in Nightblood's creation.)
You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call. You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power.
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.
In Warbreaker, Hoid is the storyteller who informs Siri of the history of the God-kings and their deaths.
Regardless, there doesn't have to be a prior instance of magical world travel in order for Brandon to come up with something.
This is a slight tangent, but one could easily argue that most Sci-fi novels have magical world travel. The boundary between fantasy and science fiction is thinner than tissue paper.
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?
What power made the monks in to 'demons'?
Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start. All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power. This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience. How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any. It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.
I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.
Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?
Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?
Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?
I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.
Zas
They are similar in some ways. However, there are also similarities between the magics in Opelon that you are glossing over, and some of the analogies with Mistborn are definitely strained. For instance, the Dahkor monks bones are made out of symbols---symbols from the ancient Fjorrel alphabet. Just like Aons are from Arelon's alphabet. They are both alphabetic systems, which produce enhanced humans. All enhanced humans remain enhanced at all times with no need for extra power, no known source beyond the Dor. And IIRC we don't know that all Dahkor monks require human sacrifice to be produced. Some effects are produced via human sacrifice, but others appear not to be.
ClayShin requires a human to concentrate, but the power does not seem to come from themselves. The one time we have seen it used, it seemed as though it could be used indefinitely as long as the user didn't loose focus. It seems more like channeling the Dor than anything else.
Or at least, without more information, that theory is consistent. It also requires fewer entities and less complications.
Also, I would find the analogies repetitive myself. Different ways of accessing the same power sounds like a more useful device for Elantris.
Unless future books dealing with Shards include space travel, this probably matters very little. I mean he could invent a magic which allows for dimmensional travel, or not. But I've never heard of a magic system which allows for travel across worlds. So this really only matters when pondering how sci-fi he wants to get in the future.
Anyway, I think that Identity and Possibility are the two shards that came to Alcatraz's planet (or ours. Smiley ), and that their battle is similar to Preservation vs. Ruin, except that Identity wants absolute, predictable sameness, and Possibility wants growth and humor. Maybe Possibility was a girl shard and Preservation was in love with her. :D That would definitely explain why Preservation had such insight into the possibilities of creating sentient life and eventually one person--the Hero of Ages, Sazed--with both the powers of Preservation and of Ruin.Um, I really don't see how that explains anything. It's not written in stone that there are exactly two Shards for every world, and they don't necessarily fight each other. IMO, there is no "anti-Dor" in Elantris; the water Elantrians dissolve in is part of the Dor as well. If there is a malevolent Shard in Elantris, it's probably Jaddeth.
I also think that there are 16 shards total, structured similarly to the Allomantic table. There are a lot of hints in Hero of Ages about how the number 16 is somehow associated with the fundamental structure of the universe.It's certainly possible. Although that would severely limit the number of series Mr. Sanderson would be able to work into his universe -- and if he decides that Alcatraz and Scribbler are Adonalsium worlds, he probably only has three or four more worlds left to build. Surely he wouldn't be that quick to put himself out of business.
Quote from: EleanethI also think that there are 16 shards total, structured similarly to the Allomantic table. There are a lot of hints in Hero of Ages about how the number 16 is somehow associated with the fundamental structure of the universe.It's certainly possible. Although that would severely limit the number of series Mr. Sanderson would be able to work into his universe -- and if he decides that Alcatraz and Scribbler are Adonalsium worlds, he probably only has three or four more worlds left to build. Surely he wouldn't be that quick to put himself out of business.
Is it possible that the Warbreaker world is what Scadrial will be like with just one God watching over everybody?
Edit: Although, I do think that the Dor and the Elantris Pool are opposites... They're too different. It's like the Dor is Energy and the Pool is Rest, or something like that.
I'm pretty sure we have only seen one shard's influence on Elantris and if there is another one it is sleeping.
Adonalsium is an anagram for Dios Alumna.:o It all makes sense now!. The mystery has been solved!
Shards of Adonalsium is an anagram for A Handmaid Surfs Solo!
Adonalsium is an anagram for Dios Alumna.
Shards of Adonalsium is an anagram for A Handmaid Surfs Solo!
Adonalsium is an anagram for Dios Alumna.It's obvious Adonalsium is Walt Disney because it's an anagram for Diosa Mulan (Goddes Mulan).
Shards of Adonalsium is an anagram for A Handmaid Surfs Solo!
I'm sick of hearing this ridiculous theory of Hoid being a shard!!!!Wow, you're really sensitive on the matter, I just dug in the threads Hoid, HoA Spoilers and Shards of Adolnasium, but didn't see that"idea" too many times.
S: (n) theory (a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena) "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory" |
S: (n) hypothesis, possibility, theory (a tentative insight into the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena) "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices" |
S: (n) theory (a belief that can guide behavior) "the architect has a theory that more is less"; "they killed him on the theory that dead men tell no tales" |
a tentative insight into the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomenaThis is the definition which started all this "theory" thing. Of course, taking out "natural world" and replacing it for "fantasy or scifi world".
A person from Arelon is "Arelene." Not sure what you'd call a Svordish person.I was trying to part the post but... I really want to answer everything ;)
I believe a comment from BS recently implied that we have seen six Shards between Elantris, Mistborn, and Warbreaker. Since I can't imagine Warbreaker could possibly be portraying three Shards in its magic system(s), I think Elantris has two. The pool that dissolves Elantrians strongly resembles the Well of Ascension (which was liquid Lerasium, apparently) and is therefore probably the liquid part of the Dor's "body." Seons and Aons, I think, are the "gas" part of the Dor, and Elantris itself is the solid manifestation.
I don't think it's a coincidence that Raoden was "taken" by the Shaod when he was. I think the sentient part of the Dor was able to "choose" him for its curse in order to heal itself. I also think the chasm that injured the Dor's physical body was caused by Jaddeth (a separate Shard) in the first place.
We don't know much about Shu-Keseg (the father religion) yet, but I'll bet its followers are closer to the truth regarding the two Shards than the Korathi or the Derethi. Also, ChayShan itself strongly resembles the Feruchemy practiced by Terrismen (in that the practitioner starts out very slowly and builds up speed, strength, and momentum gradually). Aon-writing, obviously, follows after the pattern of Allomancy: something for nothing (well, no power is ever taken from living things, anyway). It's also implied that whatever Dakhor monks do requires human sacrifice like Hemalurgy. At least, there are many more hopefuls accepted than there are monks trained. Whether they die by accident in the process of their intense training or are sacrificed to create a single super-soldier is as yet unknown, but... well...
I don't think it was coincidence on the part of Raoden, neither. In fact I was wondering if Raoden would be the one to be bound with the Dor's Shard, but then I read from BS that the children are going to be the sequel protagonists, so maybe one of them (the Elantrian, I suppose) is the Chosen One.Too obvious. Vin was the main protagonist in the Mistborn series, but Sazed was chosen there. It'll probably be a "supporting" character, but one that becomes fully developed as the plot moves on.
Probably the Chasm was caused by Jaddeth, but I'm thinking that Jaddeth and the Dor come from the same Shard, and that the Dor wis attuned to the land because it is kind of imprisoned, as Ruin was. So, Jaddeth = Dor.If they're the same Shard, though, what does the second Shard do?
There is no proof of this, but just that it would be original and ironic that the "good" and "bad" guys had the same God, and that it makes as sense as them being 2 Shards, because we have so little information.I'm more inclined to believe this is true for Warbreaker than Elantris.
Also, Aons don't get something from nothing. They really work as Allomancy, fueling something from burning the Dor.Sazed explains that Allomancy gives more than it takes because its power is fueled by Preservation's body. He also explains that when Hemalurgy is used, net power is lost because Ruin takes some of it, and Feruchemy is somewhere between the two because net power is neither lost nor gained (this is not necessarily true in all cases, unless the Enhancement metals do something other than "enhance" things in Feruchemy).
Am I dreaming or was it written that Allomancy pure gain came from the Body of Preservation itself?
Elantris[/u] pg.463 (Hardback)]The water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was a think alive' he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent. It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
Come, it pled. You can finally give up.
No, Raoden thought. Not yet.
Warbreaker[/u] pg. 719 (v6.1 .pdf)][. . .] But above it all, he remembered standing on the other side of a brilliant, colorful wave of light, looking down at the world from the other side. And seeing everything he loved dissolve into the destruction of war. A war greater than any the world had known, a war more deadly--even--than the Manywar.
He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity.
To Return.
[. . . ]
I have seen the Void, he thought. And I came back.
f they're the same Shard, though, what does the second Shard do?I liked the idea someone stated a few pages ago, saying they could be contrarys/complementarys. He said they could be Life and Rest (because the pool is seen as a place to take Rest, i.e. die).
ne interesting thing I should mention about all Shard-magics (Meaning Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy, AonDor, Awakening) is that they all have a "focus". That is, the Shards power is focused through something. In Mistborn, the focus is metal. In AonDor, the focus is the symbols. And in Awakening, the focus is actually the words.True, and they also need a fuel.
I'm pretty sure that your confused over the workings of Aon Dor... If anyone recalls when Raoden was studying it's mechanics it talks about wave length frequencies and alot of physics. Also when he first uses the earthquake slash on Ashe it makes the strongest of the incomplete Aons (Aons before the spirit of Eltantris is repaired) as the pressure was released. My personal belief is that the Aon Dor is allowing energy to flow through a rift and in amounts that are directable, whether this energy comes from a shard somewhere or from a dimension of creation ect. I don't know but it is clearly not related to Alomancy, and drawing corollaries to all of his magic systems is more or less saying an author has one style with no new tricks up his sleeve and if that is the case then why read his books... Aon Dor is drastically different from Scardiel magics and from wherever Warbreaker is... give B.S. some credit... :o
P.S. if you took offense to these comments TOO BAD!!! I mean sorry... :P
I'm pretty sure that your confused over the workings of Aon Dor... If anyone recalls when Raoden was studying it's mechanics it talks about wave length frequencies and alot of physics. Also when he first uses the earthquake slash on Ashe it makes the strongest of the incomplete Aons (Aons before the spirit of Eltantris is repaired) as the pressure was released. My personal belief is that the Aon Dor is allowing energy to flow through a rift and in amounts that are directable, whether this energy comes from a shard somewhere or from a dimension of creation ect. I don't know but it is clearly not related to Alomancy, and drawing corollaries to all of his magic systems is more or less saying an author has one style with no new tricks up his sleeve and if that is the case then why read his books... Aon Dor is drastically different from Scardiel magics and from wherever Warbreaker is... give B.S. some credit... :o
P.S. if you took offense to these comments TOO BAD!!! I mean sorry... :P
Okay, so here's a theory. On page 513 of Mistborn: The Hero of Ages, Vin mentions that metal is power, and that is why neither she nor Ruin can observe it. However, all of the Scadrial magic uses metal as it's focus.
So what I wonder is if every Shard's focus corresponds to a real-world source of power. Scadrial focuses on metals, or maybe technology, Elantrian magic focuses on writing and language, and Hallandren magic focuses on words and communication. If this is the case, I have no idea what Lightweaving (Hoid's Shards magic, I assume.) does. Any thoughts?
Is it possible that the shards bridge the dimensions between creation and the current universe??? I mean the mechanics of the AonDor seem like it to me.
P.S. I know there will be certain amount of similarities to all the shards but acting like they follow the exact rules of Scardiel is asinine the 2 opposite powers and a natural power doesn't work on all the worlds explain Warbreaker if you think it does...
P.S.S. how do "natural" powers come into existence is it because humans on Scardiel are part of preseveration and if thats the case why can't mistborn reverse aging?
Thing is it might be a moderator's view too. He was trying to help you, really.
Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)
I suspect sarah is female :P
Why does everyone take my comments as a personal attack if wanted to make one it would be insulting someones intelligence or inbreeding ect... it hurts sooo much :'(I don't think they took it as you attacking Sarah. I think it was that you were blatantly saying "I don't care about the forum etiquette/rules unless I get in trouble." I think that's what it was taken as. At least that's how it read to me.
P.S. no i'm not that sensitive i was raised by lawyers hence i have no heart but i wasn't trying to attack you sarah...
Alatar - I don't think that Adonalsium is "creation". I think that creation may be a part of Adonalsium, but not it's main purpose. You know how scientists are always asking the question about what holds everything together and keeps everything moving? I think that's what Adonalsium is meant to represent. Although there are times when it's power is condensed for one reason or another and thus we get shards.[/color]
I have been assuming that Adonalsium was a person or god of some sort.
The Big Bang Theory for Brandon's Universe:
In the beginning, there was God (Adonalsium). Until one day he exploded.
I suspect sarah is female :P
Oh, no, my secret is out! (What was your first clue?) ;)
It's possible Adonalsium was not the god of the entire universe but just of a small section of it where Brandon's planets are. If we're thinking there are only 16 shards, and two of them ended up on the same planet (and Hoid is hopping between Shard worlds), it's possible the shards are spread over a relatively small astronomical area. If that's the case, it might be because that's the area that was Adonalsium's domain.
Also, there doesn't have to be just 16 Shards. I thought 16 was Preservation's number, not necessarily anything that we could apply to all Shards. Now, there could be 16 Shards, but I don't know yet. We shall see.I'm pretty sure one of Sazed's chapter headings says something about the number 16 being fundamental to a lot more than just Preservation and Ruin.
As for the other aspects of the number . . . well, even I am still investigating that. Suffice it to say that it has great ramifications regarding how the world, and the universe itself, works.
There is something special about the number sixteen. For one thing, it was Preservation's sign to mankind.
Preservation knew, even before he imprisoned Ruin, that he wouldn't be able to communicate with humankind once he diminished himself. And so, he left clues - clues that couldn't be altered by Ruin. Clues that related back to the fundamental laws of the universe. The number was meant to be proof that something unnatural was happening, and that there was help to be found.
It may have taken us long to figure this out, but when we eventually did understand the clue - late though it was - it provided a much-needed boos.
As for the other aspects of the number . . . well, even I am still investigating that. Suffice it to tsay that it has great ramifications regarding how the world, and the universe itself, works.
:o Ahahahahahaha I forgot to look at who was posting what! And I can't pretend it was a typo because I capitalized the "H"!Thing is it might be a moderator's view too. He was trying to help you, really.
I suspect sarah is female :P
Back on the Shards, though. Is it possible that some of the Shards themselves split into lesser Shards or "Slivers"? Meh, I guess 16 is a big enough number to make a good number of books with.
One question to ask, I guess, is how the number 16 ties in with what we've observed about the magic systems in Elantris and Warbreaker. Yeah....I can't think of anything right now.
Back on the Shards, though. Is it possible that some of the Shards themselves split into lesser Shards or "Slivers"?
Anyway, I liked that word, "Slivers". Don't you remember having seen it written somewhere? Oh, yeah, about hundreds of times in Mistborn: Final Empire.
So, that's kind of a thought. ???
Perhaps Sliver or Sliver of Infinity is a term used to describe one who has been bound to a Shard or used it's power.
That would make Hoid, Kelsier, Vin, and all the actual Shards Slivers as well.
That wasn't Kel. . . that was Ruin.
i think that brandon won't limit himself to 16 shards. i mean on one planet there are two shards. each shard probabaly has slivers of itself. and who ever metioned that the way of kings will have ten different shards and magic systems, i think there will be 2-5 magic systems in the entire series and 1-4 shards.Brandon himself has stated there will be 10 magic systems.
Only one way to win a knife fight against a guy with a sword... Elend thought, gripping his knife. The thought, oddly, hadn't come from one of his trainers, or even from Vin. He wasn't sure where it came from, but he trusted it.
Close in tight as fast as possible, and kill quickly.
I think the peace offered by this pool is a supernatural force. It has something to do with the physical form of the Elantrians.http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/86/Elantris-Chapter-61-1
He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm andpg 563
comforting, offering him an opportunity.
I know you already said that there are four shards outside of Ati and Leras in your other books. Could you tell us the numbers per book? Is just a standard two per book? Or do some have more than others?
Some world have more than others. You have seen the effects, influences, and work of four other Shards. One Shard, however, was no longer on the world by the time the story was told there.
I know that we've "interacted with two directly" (the pool in Elantris, and The Voice that called Lightsong back to life) that we've "seen it's power" (Dahkhor??) and another that we've seen their infulence (I have no idea on this one, though I think it might be whatever pointed out Aon Rao in Elantris to Raoden)
Nice guesses on most of those. You’ve got some things right. You’ve got some things wrong. The only thing I'll confirm (and I don’t think I’ve said this before) is that The Voice is, indeed, one of the Shards of Adonalsium. (Endowment is that Shard’s true name, by the way.)
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard. It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard. It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.
You're conflating the power with the person, just because the Dor's power is straining to be used doesn't mean the person won't want to end the agony of a Hoed, or formerly Hoed, Elantrian. Besides, the Pool struck me as very similar to the Well of Ascension (Preservation's Pool) and the Black Pool (presumably Ruin's) that Alendi saw. With this I would conclude that the Pool near Elantris was the Dor's body (as the WoA was Preservation's), and the voice Raoden heard in the Pool was the Dor's voice.
Ookla, I don't see why there should be. Alendi's Diary has reliability issues, but I could certainly check the descriptions of the Well and the Pool to see.
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard. It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard. It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.
You're conflating the power with the person, just because the Dor's power is straining to be used doesn't mean the person won't want to end the agony of a Hoed, or formerly Hoed, Elantrian. Besides, the Pool struck me as very similar to the Well of Ascension (Preservation's Pool) and the Black Pool (presumably Ruin's) that Alendi saw. With this I would conclude that the Pool near Elantris was the Dor's body (as the WoA was Preservation's), and the voice Raoden heard in the Pool was the Dor's voice.
Ookla, I don't see why there should be. Alendi's Diary has reliability issues, but I could certainly check the descriptions of the Well and the Pool to see.
This is not entirely accurate. Lerasium and atium are, respectively, Preservation and Ruin's "bodies". Wasn't the Well of Ascension part of Preservation's Cognitive part? I seem to remember something like that.
Also, if Ruin, Preservation, and Endowment are any basis, whatever Shard(s) in Elantris would have a similar abstract concept.
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard. It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.
Perhaps "Tranquility"? That's the best I can think of thus far, having not read Elantris in a long time. A Shard wanting peace and harmony like that would probably be immensely passive in its magic. Maybe.
There are other possibilities for which four Shards we are missing. I'm going to start a long-winded post on the subject right now :D
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard. It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.
You're conflating the power with the person, just because the Dor's power is straining to be used doesn't mean the person won't want to end the agony of a Hoed, or formerly Hoed, Elantrian. Besides, the Pool struck me as very similar to the Well of Ascension (Preservation's Pool) and the Black Pool (presumably Ruin's) that Alendi saw. With this I would conclude that the Pool near Elantris was the Dor's body (as the WoA was Preservation's), and the voice Raoden heard in the Pool was the Dor's voice.
Ookla, I don't see why there should be. Alendi's Diary has reliability issues, but I could certainly check the descriptions of the Well and the Pool to see.
This is not entirely accurate. Lerasium and atium are, respectively, Preservation and Ruin's "bodies". Wasn't the Well of Ascension part of Preservation's Cognitive part? I seem to remember something like that.
Also, if Ruin, Preservation, and Endowment are any basis, whatever Shard(s) in Elantris would have a similar abstract concept.
I recall Brandon saying in the Offical Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread that the Mist, the Well, and Lerasium were all different forms of Preservation's power.
The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.
There are other possibilities for which four Shards we are missing. I'm going to start a long-winded post on the subject right now :D
No, actually. Your post is very well thought-out, but I have a couple of possibilities, which as you will see, have multiple possibilities themselves.
I'd be glad to hear it. I'm also going to probably attack the parts were it differs from mine. :D
Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?
The other lake in Alendi's bumps?
Spook gets repaired, does Cett get his legs?
Was there ever anything to Reen's obsidian?
2) A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two. The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground. (Note that the Well is a very similar manifestation. You've also seen one other manifestation like this....)
But the way Brandon worded it implied that the Pool held the Dor's Consciousness. Which mean the voice pretty much has to be the Dor.
Edit: this post is a response to Chaos, not bookWorm
Another possibility for the shard that has left is "Jaddeth." He is said to be sleeping now, but his could be the power that the monks use. Of course the future series in Elantris is about his followers proclaiming that he is coming back, so unless they found out how to access his power as Vin or Sazed did, then him coming back means that he is still around.
The water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was alive, he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent.It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
Come, it pled You can finally give up.
No, Raoden thought. Not yet.
Here's the quote from Elantris-QuoteThe water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was alive, he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent.It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
Come, it pled You can finally give up.
No, Raoden thought. Not yet.
I am pretty sure that the Pool is a shard, I just don't think it is connected with the Dor. There is very little passive about Dor.
About Endowment. I think that the reason that it took so long for the first Returned is because it takes a long time to learn how to make Returned (which is why Sazed wasn't able to revive Vin and Elend).
I agree, the Pool is linked to the Dor. Now, more importantly, how is it linked to the Dor.
I agree, the Pool is linked to the Dor. Now, more importantly, how is it linked to the Dor.
Occam's razor would indicate that the Pool is the Dor's Shard Pool.
Does anyone else think the pool shard might be Domi? Shu-Korath is based on love, and that part about the pool being like a parent's arms sounds like love to me.
I think that it is also very important to remember a previous theory from this board about Endowment. The Tears of Hallendren are very similar to Atium. They can only grow in that place, have an integral part in the magic system and provide the economy that Hallendren rests on. The proximity to the tears and their dyes could also affect Endowments ability to return people.
When can we expect you to post?
"Release" could be the name of the shard that's connected to the pool. The name fits with the other Shard names. "Dor" doesn't fit with the other names.
QuoteReaders have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.Have we met these four by name, or just by influence? I can't think of a name that would go with the one that the Elantris lake is a manifestation of.
Hoid could be one? I know nothing his purpose other than that he shows up in lots of different books, sometimes begging and sometimes telling stories. Since most of these series happen on different planets (though two of them may happen on the same planet as each other), I'm assuming he has mad planet-hopping skills.
...Nightblood...
Ookla, I'm going to be tight lipped on this, as I don't want to give things away for future books. But I'll tell you this:
You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call. You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power.
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.
Q: I know you already said that there are four shards outside of Ati and Leras in your other books. Could you tell us the numbers per book? Is just a standard two per book? Or do some have more than others?
A: Some world have more than others. You have seen the effects, influences, and work of four other Shards. One Shard, however, was no longer on the world by the time the story was told there.
So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.
The water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was alive, he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent.It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
Come, it pled. You can finally give up.
No, Raoden thought. Not yet.
A vision sprang into Raoden's passive mind. He tried to ignore it. Yet, for some reason, it refused to leave. He save it through the shimmering surgace of his pain -- a simple picutre.
It was Aon Rao. A large square with four circles around it, lines connecting them to the center. It was a widely used Aon -- espeically among the Korathi -- for its meaning. Spirit. Soul.
Floating in the white eternity, Raoden's mind tried to discard the image of Aon Rao. It was something from a previous existance, unimportant and forgotten. He didn't need it any longer. Yet, even as he strove to remove the image, another sprung up in its place.
Elantris. Four walls forming a square. The four outer cities, currounding it, their border cricles. A straight road leading from each city to Elantris.
Mericiful Domi!
"Shu-Korath is docile and unassuming, priest," Hrathen said. "Shu-Dereth is vibrant and dynamic. It will sweep you away like a roaring flood rushing through a stagnant pool."
Shu-Dereth says that Jaddeth is sleeping beneath the earth, and that he will rise only when all men are obedient to him. I'm afraid I have to disagree with Domi and Jaddeth being one shard. I don't think one shard could fuel 3 different types of magic.
Endowment isn't obvious at all for #1, where did we ever interact with it to the level of Hoid or the Pool Shard? Furthermore, "Release", the name Ookla proposed for the Pool Shard, could be quite easily interpreted to apply to the Dor's activities as well. As to Raoden noticing Aeon Rao in Elantris, why couldn't he have figured it out on his own? IIRC, he was looking at Elantris from a mountaintop at the time.
And why did you drop Hoid? Last I checked Vin and Saze didn't notice a spaceship in their solar system when they were in Shardmode. Without a Space Ship, Shardhood is pretty much the only way I can think of for Hoid to cross interstellar distances.
@Inquisitor, why not? Preservation fuels at least 16 magics. More if you consider him a joint fueler of Feruchemy.
I figured maybe the shards on Opelon were Love and Obedience or something similar because the two gods we hear about in Elantris rely on love and obedience respectively.This is a good theory too. Both of those would make excellent shard names.
Chaos made an epic post again! Yay! Well, in celebration, I shall make my own epic post compiling all of my own thoughts. It's nice to be back to theorizing. And I think we may finally have enough to go on that we can do some decent theorizing. So I'll be back later with a lengthy post of my own.
I figured maybe the shards on Opelon were Love and Obedience or something similar because the two gods we hear about in Elantris rely on love and obedience respectively.This is a good theory too. Both of those would make excellent shard names.
I am not sure that Domi and Jaddeth are actual entities. Mistborn showed us that the people in his worlds can follow a ton of different religions that have some truth without being, in essence, the truth.
He turned to the side. Blushweaver’s body lay red and bloodied. He’d seen
that it in a vision. In the vague shadows of morning memory, he’d thought
that the image had been of her blushing, but now he remembered. He looked
to the side. Llarimar, eyes closed as if asleep—that image had been in his
dream as well. Lightsong realized the man had them shut as he wept.
The God King in prison. Lightsong had seen that too. But above it all,
he remembered standing on the other side of a brilliant, colorful wave of
light, looking down at the world from the other side. And seeing everything
he loved dissolve into the destruction of war. A war greater than any the
world had known, a war more deadly—even—than the Manywar.
He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and
comforting, offering him an opportunity.
To Return.
By the Colors . . . Lightsong thought, standing up as the priests forced the
God King to his knees. I am a god.
Lightsong stepped forward, moving up to the bars of his cage. He saw
pain and tears in the God King’s face and somehow understood them. The
man did love Siri. Lightsong had seen the same thing in the queen’s eyes.
She had somehow come to care for the man who was to oppress her.
“You are my king,” Lightsong whispered. “And lord of the gods.”
The Pahn Kahl men forced the God King facedown on the stones. One
of the priests raised a sword. The God King’s arm jutted out, his hand toward
Lightsong.
I have seen the void, he thought. And I came back.
Compared with the original Shards, Midus (or is it Midius? I don't remember the Liar prologue) held onto his Shard a rather short time. He could retain his consciousness fairly effectively.
Now, Chaos mentioned something about the person eventually beginning to become like the shard they control. For instance, in HoA, Vin talks to Ruin. Now, I would like to point out that through all of this, Vin remains very much .... well, Vin. She doesn't change. Ati, however, talks as though he has been Ruin since Ruin and Preservation created Mankind. So, either a) Ati really is the original cognitive manifestation of Ruin, and was there when Ruin and Preservation created Mankind, or b) Ati thinks that he was there, but actually wasn't. He's become so much the personality of the force (Ruin) behind the shard that he just kind of morphs to it. He's deceived himself into believing that he helped create mankind.
But I've never heard of a magic system which allows for travel across worlds.
I think travelling worlds with magic is probably one of those ideas whose time has come. I've had that on my list of "loose ideas" for... I think six years? Almost as long as I've had the list. It's certainly not new, but it's waiting for someone to make a really good book involving it in a way that's fun and exciting. Which is a matter of inventing a cool space travel system.
Look up the theoretical 5th dimension if that stuff interest you...pretty cool stuff but very much, as it stands right now, sci-fi aka fanciful bull
But it might be that you could, theoretically, do the FTL thing?
I have a quantum mechanics question for you btw, should I pm you?
I would argue that sci-fi has been using various magical travelling-to-other-worlds systems for years.
Here's a hint: Real science hasn't got a clue how we could really do it safely, especially not faster-than-light.
Aren't there particles that go faster than light and b/c of it they go back through time...my physics teacher was having a discussion with another physics teacher about them my junior year of highschool
No. There's still at least one other book, The Silence Divine, which is set on a different world. And there are probably a couple we haven't heard anything about yet.
I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.
Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?
Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?
Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?
I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.
Zas
Note that there are three types. Plus three realms? One for each realm? (I'll edit later if I notice that someone has already said this, and to explain once I figure out what I mean.)I don't see any relationship, but it could be there. For example, Hemalurgy is Scadrial's spiritual magic, while Jaddeth's magic seems to be physical. Of course, if we applied the natural, the divine, and the demonic to the magics we've seen so far, we may get something. That would give us 9 shards of different orientations if we're using it as a count. Add another criteria in there (one that has four different options), and we could have a comprehensive list of the shards (3x3x4=36). I doubt it, but it's possible.
Also, you probably got the number 10 from "Way of Kings," which is supposed to feature ten distinct magic systems. To my knowledge, no information has yet come to light regarding the total number of Shards in existence, though it is conjectured that 16 is a universally divine number and therefore there are probably 16 Shards.
Monk and Jindo powers CAN'T be geographically powered else they would get weaker the farther away from the fatherland, and the monks are a society of conquest so they would have been turned back earlier if they had a limited range. Also even if you map the whole world the city is THE Focus for the Aon Dor. The city and it's outlieing towns create the "gate" for which the Elantrians can preform miracles ect. And for both shards on Scardiel metal was power so it is likely that characters are power for this world (Opelon or whatnot is the continent).Not necessarily. Dakhor magic seems to be powered partly by human sacrifice (recall that the High Priest of the Dakhor once asked that one of his pupils give up his life to conjure something like Aon Teo in order to teleport him to Wyrn). The Monks may have to be "operated on" very close to a source of Dor (Dakhor Monastery) but, once imbued, able to store bits of it.
I agree. The paragraph you excerpted from my post was directed at firstRainbowRose, who earlier said:Also, you probably got the number 10 from "Way of Kings," which is supposed to feature ten distinct magic systems. To my knowledge, no information has yet come to light regarding the total number of Shards in existence, though it is conjectured that 16 is a universally divine number and therefore there are probably 16 Shards.
I'll note here that although there were two shards on Scandriel (sp?), there were three magic systems, one for each shard and one caused by the interactions between their opposing powers. The number of magic systems, I would guess, is not tied to the number of shards, but is actually tied to interactions between the shards and Realmatic theory.
Silence devine: It's set in the same solar system as another shard, so there are ten shard systems (I swear he said ten).
I agree. The paragraph you excerpted from my post was directed at firstRainbowRose, who earlier said:Silence devine: It's set in the same solar system as another shard, so there are ten shard systems (I swear he said ten).
"The shard of metal got dangerously close to your heart(A doctor about Penrod's spike,pg 294)
I found this in HOA, and it has an interesting word...Quote"The shard of metal got dangerously close to your heart(A doctor about Penrod's spike,pg 294)
It may just be a coincidence, but I don't think so. I think Brandon may be trying to tell us something very conspicuously.
No, what I was saying was maybe he's trying to tell us something about how the Shards of Andonalsium works. I think he's trying to tell us that The Shards all are placed where and when they are placed for a reason, and they are made by maybe even the Death of Andonalsium.
Gosh, Can't you guys read minds? ;)
(PS now after reading my original post I realize that it was quite vague, and it implied that Penrod was a Shard, which makes no sense. Sorry!)
As for the pool, well, I couldn't get a straight yes or no. I said that and he was like "Intresting" with a funny look.
As for the pool, well, I couldn't get a straight yes or no. I said that and he was like "Intresting" with a funny look.
*insert frustrated rant here* GAH!!!!
As for the pool, well, I couldn't get a straight yes or no. I said that and he was like "Intresting" with a funny look.
*insert frustrated rant here* GAH!!!!
My interpretation is that Brandon is signaling we don't have the full story on the Shards in Elantris.
Yeah, but he didn't do it to you in person. This was in person because he ALMOST let something slip and caught himself.
But Roshar has at least 30
But the pools are important. He's told me there's a pool in all three published series, and drawing my attention to that fact means it's not a nothing.
But Roshar has at least 30
Exactly! We're gonna jump to simple algebra for this one... If A=B and B=C then A=C
(At least 30) = (Any number greater than 30)
(31) = (A number greater than 30)
(31) = (At least 30)
Don't feel bad. I'm at a compleate loss too. Of course, Eric up there WOULD get it. *peace* Love ya' Eric.
1. Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.
you are assuming a shard can only combine with one other shard at a time to create a magic system. so far we have not really had thoroughly explained instances of more than two shards operating on a planet at one time. is it possible that three shards could combine to form one magic system?
I don't think that the number of magic systems is as directly correlated to the number of shards as has been assumed. After all, the magics are derived from the interactions between peoples' physiology and the shard(s) fuelling them so, theoretically, shards could exist that can't fuel a magic system on their own. It has also been confirmed by Brandon, see quote, that a single shard is capable of fuelling multiple systems on their own if they so desire.1. Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.
But Roshar has at least 30
Exactly! We're gonna jump to simple algebra for this one... If A=B and B=C then A=C
(At least 30) = (Any number greater than 30)
(31) = (A number greater than 30)
(31) = (At least 30)
Unfortunately, after reading all 18 pages, I'm not quite sure where some of this data stems from, how this whole tangent started, the whole of the shards coming to light, etc. If anyone feels so inclined, could you point me to some resources for further study on this topic? :) I'd muchly appreciate it.
But Roshar has at least 30
Exactly! We're gonna jump to simple algebra for this one... If A=B and B=C then A=C
(At least 30) = (Any number greater than 30)
(31) = (A number greater than 30)
(31) = (At least 30)
IF.
A = "my car"
B = "a mode of transportation"
C = "my bicycle"
THEN:
My car = my bicycle? ;)
You have no idea how infuriating it can be to have lived with a philosophy major (now a professor in ethics, I believe, at a university I haven't asked about recently).
There was a Hero of Ages spoilers thread immediately after it came out, and a lot of our background info came from there. I think that it can be found here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6655.0").
Much of the rest comes from third-hand reports of questions answered at signings and is spread out wherever relevant in the forums.
Well, Mr. J is relying somewhat on unstated but true properties of the ordinal numbers that emphatically do not apply to poorly defined sets.
My stepbrother is a student at UTEP and my cousin Brandon Wolfram broke the all time scoring record for UTEP's basketball program in the late 90's & was on the cover of ESPN for it.
P.S. for those who don't know. UTEP (university of texas @ El Paso) was Texas Southwestern? anyways some direction then western and Glory Road is based off the story of it's all black starting team (the first one in NCAA).
Wikipedia supports Kaz.
Wikipedia supports Kaz.
But who knows. Maybe Kaz changed wikipedia, just so he could be right. You never know! ;)
QuoteWell, Mr. J is relying somewhat on unstated but true properties of the ordinal numbers that emphatically do not apply to poorly defined sets.
Certainly. Mathematical concepts are far more defined than philosophical concepts but the formula appears in both systems. I think I've been trained to think in the philosophical sense, having been subjected to quite similar conversations on a weekly basis previously. ???
We need the powers of the Hero of Ages!
Someone find Chaos to save us from this . . . Chaos.
However, he [Ruin] is a force given sentience—or, rather, sentience that has attached itself to a force. Regardless, that force drives him and dominates him.
Quote from: Mistborn 3 Chapter 53 AnnotationHowever, he [Ruin] is a force given sentience—or, rather, sentience that has attached itself to a force. Regardless, that force drives him and dominates him.
I can't help but feel that there is a lot of significance in those couple sentences. I can't for life of me figure out what it might be right now, but I just know it's there.
I don't think Hoid is a shard. Why? Cuz he still has a physical body. When Vin became a shard, her body vanished, so if Hoid is a shard why hasn't this happened to him?
I also don't think that the Elantris pool and the Dor are different shards. Everyone is basing the intentions of the pool on a full two sentences, which can hardly be used to assume all of it's intentions. But the point still stands: why would the pool offer Raoden rest if he was the only one who could fix the Spirit of Elantris? Simple: choice. He gave Raoden a way out of his pain, something so overwhelming as to make him hoed. He would not be a benevolent god without giving him that option, in my opinion. And it is a triumph of Raoden's character that he did the right thing, not the easy thing.
But the Dor is described several times as a massive, unthinking force that is trying to push out of a space that is way to small for it. ???That gave me an idea. What if this Shard is, like Ruin or Preservation, made of force and a mind, but if the mind can't handle the power? Like, it wants to keep it inside the planet, but it's still leaking out?
Hoid isn't technically a shard, though by the time you meet him in most books he's bound to one, so it's nearly the same thing.
I don't think Hoid is a shard. Why? Cuz he still has a physical body. When Vin became a shard, her body vanished, so if Hoid is a shard why hasn't this happened to him?
I agree that Hoid isn't a shard, but I am almost certain that he uses a shard. Lightweaving.
All magics would work on the other worlds provided you knew how to make it happen.
Ruin's consciousness—separate from his power—isn't a particularly nice being. But you can't much blame him, as there's very little that is left of the mind that once was. The force of Ruin has pretty well molded the mind to fit with the force's intent.
Kill him, Ruin's voice whispered. You could do it. Take a weapon from one of those soldiers, then use it on Yomen.A slight tangent occurs where Vin is disturbed that Reen's voice is actually Ruin's. Then back in:
She ignored the voice, She wasn't sure why Ruin would want her to try killing Yomen. After all, the Yomen had captured her--the obligator king was working on Ruin's side.
Notice that Ruin's voice doesn't come to her until after she puts the earring back in. As she points out later, his telling her to kill isn't as specific as she's interpreting it. He's just sending her a general feeling that she should kill and destroy; his attention is elsewhere at the moment, watching what Spook is doing.(emphasis added)
Let's look at the Pool scene. We have one Shard, with a passive mindset, telling Raoden to give up. This is the Shard Pool's influence. But! Raoden received a vision of an Aon. It seems slightly contradictory to have one Shard telling Raoden to die, and then the other showing him an Aon. This is an interesting duality. One giving him a reason to live, the other wanting him to die. Passion/Tranquility, it could be called?
It seems to me that the Dor Shard and the pool could be the same. (though I actually don't think they are, so I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate. Oh well.) Raoden's mind could just be interpreting the Shard's general feelings and tendencies, but the aon Rao is what it is deliberately sending him.
The other thing I wanted to mention was a passing confirmation that Ruin and Preservation were humans that predated Scadriel.
Brandon has said Hoid isn't a shard, but that he is closely related. He was there when Adonalsium shatteredI'm not saying Hoid is a shard, but that he is the conciousness of all the shards combined: Adonalsium, and thus was present when Adonalism shattered.
Or a man who Adonalsium have given a mission to? We still don't know what was behind Adonalsium destruction, so it's hard to guess who Hoid could be.QuoteBrandon has said Hoid isn't a shard, but that he is closely related. He was there when Adonalsium shatteredI'm not saying Hoid is a shard, but that he is the conciousness of all the shards combined: Adonalsium, and thus was present when Adonalism shattered.
Which by definition means Sazed is doomed to ambivalence and insanity. Two opposed forces "molding his (pardon, IT's) mind" and all.
I've often pondered what kind of God Sazed would be. I just can't see him asking people to worship him. I also have this awesome idea of Marsh and Ten Soon acting as his agents on Scadriel, while he keeps track of the bigger picture. As for minor tragedies, he's wise enough to know that people need minor tragedies to grow.
What if it turned out that Hoid was EVIL!? He's always been more passive than anything, thus leaving his actual morality a sort of unanswered question until WoK comes out.
I've often pondered what kind of God Sazed would be. I just can't see him asking people to worship him. I also have this awesome idea of Marsh and Ten Soon acting as his agents on Scadriel, while he keeps track of the bigger picture. As for minor tragedies, he's wise enough to know that people need minor tragedies to grow.
Hmm. I wonder if Shards speak to anyone in Elantris or Warbreaker. Maybe Hrathen and .... Vivenna? I'll have to look at this some more.Endowment speaks to the Returned as I recall, but only in that brief moment between death and Return when it's offering the dead person the opportunity to Return. This is shown in flashback when Lightsong remembers that moment.
yes, endowment gives some people the choice to return when they die and if they say yes he/she/it gives them one uber breath, drains the colour out of them, and commands them to return (just like awakening) and IIRC the pool in Elantris "spoke" to RaodenHmm. I wonder if Shards speak to anyone in Elantris or Warbreaker. Maybe Hrathen and .... Vivenna? I'll have to look at this some more.Endowment speaks to the Returned as I recall, but only in that brief moment between death and Return when it's offering the dead person the opportunity to Return. This is shown in flashback when Lightsong remembers that moment.
However, now they (The Metallic Arts) are more directly affected by the presence or absence of the mists, which will slowly return to the world but not be of the extent they once were. (The mists are now an extent of Sazed's power, and where they roam, he is better able to influence things. There will also be two kinds of mists.)
Can you call them mistborn without mistborn? ???Ah, but there will be Mistborn, they're just going to be really, desperately rare.
Kelsier, when he 'piggy backs' on the power of Preservation for a while, only speaks to Spook, and Spook is the only one of the original crew who has faith in Kelsier.But it was, in fact, Ruin speaking to Spook through the guise of Kelsier due to the shard of metal Spook was encouraged (by Ruin) to leave within his body) after he was nearly killed. (Similarly, was Vin encouraged to retain her mother's earring throughout her short life, which Marsh ripped from her as his ultimate rebellion against Ruin ... that solid piece of himself that he retained throughout his transformation from Seeker to Steel Inquisitor.) For more discussion on this topic (http://www.adonalsium.net/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=305) (and specifically focused on Brandon Sanderson's novels), please join me and many others at www.adonalsium.net! We are intent on discovering all we might with regard to Brandon's arch from Elantris through The Mistborn Trilogy to Warbreaker and The Stormlight Archive, beginning with The Way of Kings this August! (Honestly, 8/17/10 can't come soon enough!)
"You did well, Spook."
Yes, that's Kelsier's voice at the beginning. As I said in a previous annotation, he can't help but meddle.
There is an afterlife in this cosmology I've built, and Kelsier's in it. He never has been able to leave well enough alone. He saw, here, that a piece of the puzzle needed to be put together, so he stepped in and tried to get through to Spook about it.
Spook was the only one in the crew he could speak to. That's because Spook truly has faith in Kelsier as a deity—which, for these few weeks between Preservation's death and the coming of the Hero of Ages, Kelsier is.
Kelsier, when he 'piggy backs' on the power of Preservation for a while, only speaks to Spook, and Spook is the only one of the original crew who has faith in Kelsier.But it was, in fact, Ruin speaking to Spook through the guise of Kelsier due to the shard of metal Spook was encouraged (by Ruin) to leave within his body) after he was nearly killed. (Similarly, was Vin encouraged to retain her mother's earring throughout her short life, which Marsh ripped from her as his ultimate rebellion against Ruin ... that solid piece of himself that he retained throughout his transformation from Seeker to Steel Inquisitor.) For more discussion on this topic (http://www.adonalsium.net/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=305) (and specifically focused on Brandon Sanderson's novels), please join me and many others at www.adonalsium.net! We are intent on discovering all we might with regard to Brandon's arch from Elantris through The Mistborn Trilogy to Warbreaker and The Stormlight Archive, beginning with The Way of Kings this August! (Honestly, 8/17/10 can't come soon enough!)
Okay so i have read all of brandon's published books and i have a couple questions that would be better found out by just asking them here.
1) What is a Shard
2) The origen of shards are?
3) anything else that you all deem need to know
thanks for future answers.
Hoid isn't technically a shard, though by the time you meet him in most books he's bound to one, so it's nearly the same thing.
So Hoid isn't technically a shard, but he is bound to one.
I'm not sure. Brandon's answer to ANYONE wanting to read Liar of Partinel is "I don't like how it turned out and it spoils way too much."
EDIT: If you dig around enough you can find the first 6 or so chapters of the original version and 3 or so chapters of the rewrite.
Or it could be that Hoid was Adonalsium. Remember when Leras' body fell out of the sky and he was no longer Preservation? Maybe its a similar situation with Hoid, but Hoid survived the "fall". Maybe Hoid/Adonalsium could not hold all that power together and facets of it split off when Adonalsium "fell" and became Hoid.
I don't know if this is really relevant, but the Hebrew name for god is "Adonai", which is pretty close to your "Adonal" naming...