Author Topic: Internal Dialogue, An Essay  (Read 2824 times)

maxonennis

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Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« on: February 16, 2009, 08:51:37 PM »
* There maybe spoilers for Mistborn and the Wheel of Time in this thread *

Authors Note: Because I haven’t seen a Writing Excuses episode on this, and because it is something that new writers can get confused on, I’m going to try and give information about how to use internal dialogue from what I’ve learnt.

Internal dialogue was my biggest weakness and something I still struggle with, thus I feel qualified to give advice.

You can feel free to disagree, discus, or jump in with your own thoughts on the subject, but the essay is from my own experiences as a writer.



Internal Dialogue, An Essay

Good internal dialogue doesn’t disrupt the flow of the story; great internal dialogue can’t be seen by the naked eye.

In Brandon Sanderson’s book Mistborn, he uses italicized internal dialogue. This is the first and most commonly used form of internal dialogue. What this does is let the reader know that the italicized sentences are thoughts, and making a clear distinction between the rest of the narrative and the character’s thought. The side affect is that the overuses of the italicized thoughts can distract from the rest of the story. So, while the reader knows for certain that these are character’s thoughts and not necessarily facts, the italicized sentences can be jarring and can throw the reader out of the story.

The second from of internal dialogue is interweaved into the narrative like in the Wheel of Time series—although typically used in first person point-of-view. This allows the author to use unreliable narrators, and doesn’t distract the reader with eye-popping italics. The down side to this kind of dialogue is that it becomes hard for the reader to understand when the narrator is being honest, and when they are lying. It also reads a lot like stream of conscious thought because the character’s minds are so interweaved into the story that the writer has to follow them, this can cause the story to get a bit off track and lose momentum.

Most writers use a combination of the two, so don’t think that you have to use one or the other. Either one of these are good, but misuses of either can ruin a story. Too many italicized sentences can put the story inside the character’s head and make the world and people around him or her dull and lifeless. Using narrative with an underdeveloped character can read like a movie script, or the character’s thoughts may be inconsistent.

When is too much? When the character’s thoughts are the highlight of the novel. One of the attractions of a story should be the characters interactions with one another, unless you are writing something experimental. When one character’s thoughts over shadow the rest of the story then it is obvious that that character is making the world around them feel less interactive despite how developed the author may have made it.

How to avoid too much? It’s as simple as basic human communication: body language and speech. Facial expressions, hand gestures, and body lean can tell the reader a lot about what a character is thinking if used correctly in a social situation. Using speech, you can outright let the reader know what the characters are thinking without breaking point-of-view.

(Or, even better, you can have your main character lie to another without giving an explanation to the reader. This is a good way to see if you are using internal dialogue correctly. Writing a story in which one character lies to another and having people read it to see how many understand why the character did without telling them is a good exercise.)

There are other ways such as having other lively characters around the narrator, or making the narrator very interactive with other people. Typically when you want to use internal dialogue there is a reason to let the reader know what the character is thinking, in those situations it is best to go ahead and use some form of internal dialogue, but I caution against creating your character as a channel through which your own thoughts flow (it can feel oppressive, and just plain annoying).
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Reaves

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 09:42:18 PM »
Very interesting. Thanks for putting this together. I laughed when I read this though:
Quote
 
Internal dialogue was my biggest weakness and something I still struggle with, thus I feel qualified to give advice.
However I understand you.

Also, I have seen authors do internal dialogue that would normally be italicized in just a regular font, no italics. You have to make sure to tag the internal dialogue every single time you use it, and it can throw the reader off sometimes, but it doesn't have the downsides of normal italics.
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maxonennis

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 10:36:22 PM »
Very interesting. Thanks for putting this together. I laughed when I read this though:
Quote
 
Internal dialogue was my biggest weakness and something I still struggle with, thus I feel qualified to give advice.
However I understand you.

Yeah, I didn't want to sound to snotty about posting up an essay so I was trying to play the sympathy card  :P

But really, I wanted the readers to know that this is something I've studied extensively in order to help my own writing.
"Don't argue with ignorance. And when you argue with me, that's all you get!" Mike

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jwdenzel

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 02:27:48 AM »
Well said, maxonennis.   I'll take it further.

Internal. italicized thoughts are becoming cliche in fantasy.  No offense to those writing it.  I love how Jordan uses them.  In Mistborn, it felt appropriate simply because I knew going in that the series was "a response" to WoT. (ie, Brandon outwardly admits the style was intended in ways to feel similar to WoT.)

That said, I usually frown when I see fantasy writing (published or not) with it.  Although, I admit, it's hard for me to enjoy ANY fantasy books these days unless they're exceptionally unique and not just another cookie-cutter, by-the-numbers Jordan rip-off.

*steps off soapbox*

Anyway, I agree with maxonennis.  If you're going to use them, make sure you have a reason for it.  And use it sparingly.

For myself personally, I chose not to put them into the novel I'm working on because I didn't trust myself to do it right.

J
These are not my stories. I just write them.

jwdenzel

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 02:30:54 AM »
PS: we should ask the WRITING EXCUSES people to do a show on this. 
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Frog

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 03:29:36 AM »
Oh man, why does EVERYTHING have to come back to RJ? When did he become the God of Epic Fantasy? People have been writing it long before he came around and it wasn't half bad either. At least I enjoyed it... and I can't say I always enjoyed RJ. Though I may be in the minority here that loves fantasy in many different forms and don't mind the occasional 'knock off', though I hardly would call any book a knock off because there are so many different styles (even in this small group) that can play with even the most mundane idea and keep it fresh. We're never going to avoid all familiar material (and I really don't think we should because there are reasons it's familiar; people like me like it) and are bound to be influenced by each other so it is just a matter of inserting your own voice and twists. Finding things that engage you because that will engage the reader. Chances are that if you love it, a few other people will like it too. It all depends on what kind of audience you are aiming for.
Sorry, I'll stop ranting and get on topic now. Internal dialogue, like all dialogue in my opinion, is a matter of style and flow. Experiment a whole lot until you find something that fits your own personal story and individual scenes. Other than that, I agree with most of what has been said.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 06:11:52 AM by Frog »
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jwdenzel

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 06:46:00 AM »
Quote
Oh man, why does EVERYTHING have to come back to RJ?

I'm biased. ;-)

(*shakes fist @ Frog*)
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Frog

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 06:49:16 AM »
(*shakes fist @ Frog*)
Wow, that's becoming quite the habit for you. It seems our War of Mean Comments shall range all over.... It could get interesting. ;).
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maxonennis

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 07:07:00 PM »
Frog, I used Mistborn and tWoT as examples because most everyone on this board has read both. If I had to hold up the shining example in speculative fiction for each, I would say Joe Abercrombie’s First Law trilogy for the italicized, and anything written by Gene Wolfe for narrative.
"Don't argue with ignorance. And when you argue with me, that's all you get!" Mike

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Frog

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2009, 04:20:09 AM »
I didn't have an issue with using it as an example and I agreed with a lot of your comments.  I just had an issue with the thought that just because RJ happened to do something, it is now a cliche that no other author should be able to touch which was the vibe I was getting from Jason's comments, but I am good with agreeing to disagree on a lot of these things. There is room for lots of books and lots of styles out there and no one right answer on a lot of these things.
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wcarter4

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 04:46:12 AM »
Frog, the thing is that just because something is cliched doesn't mean that it CAN"T be used. In fact there are some that would assert that the proper use of cliches is what separates the Greats from those who are simply good.https://webct.uga.edu/SCRIPT/psyc1101rs/scripts/student/serve_marks.pl
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Frog

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 05:23:44 AM »
I guess the problem is that just the word 'cliche' has a big negative connotation to me.  Kind of like calling a book a 'knock off', ' hack job' or 'rip-off' which I rarely see as a fair assessment. So yeah, all I was trying to say (and obviously failing as I seem to have a flair for the over dramatic lately) was exactly what you seem to be saying. Cliches are fine if you still do your own homework and find ways to insert your own style. Thank you for putting it better than I did.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 05:28:52 AM by Frog »
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Necroben

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2009, 02:30:13 AM »
"Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia."

"Originality does not consist in saying what no one has ever said before,
but in saying exactly what you think yourself."

Just to throw it out there, as a reader, I have no preference as to how internal dialogue is presented.  I've seen it underlined, italicized, bold, and nothing.  So long as I know the difference between internal, external, and narrator, I'm not bothered.
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maxonennis

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 05:45:33 AM »
Necroben, when I'm talking about narrative internal dialogue I mean that the thoughts of the narrative character is intertwined with the actual text, not separate as in the examples you've given.

Hold on, let me find a good example...okay it's taking too long to find the "perfect passage", but I'll make one up.

Exhibit A: The smiling girl skipped by. Bouncing pig tails, she mummed off key as she went. But why?

The "but why" is a thought. In most every book there are small bits of thought given like this in the story, but in some all thought is delivered this way.

Note: I had been looking through my copy of The Shadow of the Torturer for a good passage, but the entire book is so fused together with the main character's thoughts that you can't really see it with one sentence.
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Maxonennis’ soliloquy on Frog relations: “How can I bake the hall in the candle of her brain?”

jwdenzel

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Re: Internal Dialogue, An Essay
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2009, 10:16:47 PM »
For me, I think it just comes down to this:  use whatever style you want. As Frog and others have said, there is no right or wrong way to do things.   Just be aware of WHY you're doing it, and try to determine if it feels right for your story and your style, versus "because that's how <some person you admire> does it."   

One of the hard lessons ALL of us need to learn (myself included of course) is how to create a style and voice that sounds like US rather than sounding like somebody else. 

My comment above in my other post was simply stating that IMO a lot of authors (in all genres) sound too much like somebody else.  It's human nature to be inspired by, and want to imitate something that works. That's fine.  But from what I've heard the pros say, such as the Writing Excuses team, and from what I've learned 1st hand, you need to be able to bring something new to the table with your creative work.
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