Author Topic: Godsplay Prologue  (Read 2701 times)

vegetathalas

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Jenn's World
Godsplay Prologue
« on: November 10, 2009, 02:48:04 AM »
This novel is finished and has been through a couple drafts so I'm looking for fresh eyes to tell me what you think.

What are you confused about? What don't you like? Is there anything in there that would make you put the book down?

Most of the chapters I email out will be shorter. And not as graphically violent.

Here is the "Wheel of Time" type prophecy/scriptures that open the book:

“And the Ur-Lord gnawed on himself and did not bleed and so decided He was God.

“Other Gods formed from men’s thirsting dreams and so died when unloved, but the Ur-Lord leapt from void to void and dream to dream, and none had power over Him...

“He stretched out fingers whittled by great hunger and quenched the younger stars. ‘Kill me,’ He cried, and the lesser Gods slew Him again and again, but He did not die.

“...After the war ended and the ravens had gorged themselves on the flesh of dead Gods, the survivors sealed the Ur-Lord away in a tomb of fire and pain. And His followers cried out: ‘O, Great Father, deliver us! Death itself is crushed in your mouth!’

“But the Ur-Lord slept on, oblivious, turning in his bed of fire and ash...”


--Luc 1:11-21, 23, The Tome of Heresies.

***

“If even the Gods are mad, what chance do mere mortals have?”


--Anonymous itinerate philosopher, 1145 L.B.

Recovering_Cynic

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 581
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Except vampires. Vampires suck.
    • View Profile
    • my livejournal
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2009, 04:12:48 AM »
Thoughts while reading through:

The first few pages made me think that the palace was under siege and the boy was running for his life.  After that though, he is casually strolling with his sister... this is confusing.

Okay so the assault continues.  I thought there had been a flashback of some sort.  I'm with you now.

They seem to be taking their sweet time getting out of the fortress...

Finished.

Alrighty.  What a ride.  Gripping is an understatement.  Other than my initial confusion that we had stumbled into a flashback when Cien met his unusually calm sister, I found little wrong with it, and what's better, it was extremely well written.  Perhaps a bit more urgency since the tonsures aren't keeping everyone alive, but that's not necessary.  In fact, the calmness kinda builds the tension that much more, but at the same time it does confuse your reader a little (I think that's where the flashback confusion came from--the sister was so calm, also the confusion where the kid is taking time to admire the doors before going into the library, I wasn't sure if he was taking a flashback there too). 

Anyway, the above critiques are very minor and wouldn't make me stop reading in and of themselves. 

If this was the prologue, I would probably keep on reading.  I say probably, because I'd have to know what the book was about.  Your prologue twists the gut more than just a little--which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'd have to know what the pay off was going to be.  If the plot sounded like something I'd love, then reading this prologue would thrill me to no end just because it is so well written.  I'd know I was in for a wild ride, but a good one.  On the other hand, if my expectations were otherwise (it sounded like a book that had a 50-50% chance of me liking it), the brutality of the prologue might have turned me off.  And it is, above all else, brutal.

Anyway, those are my thoughts and and critiques.  Hope I helped, and I look forward to reading more.

this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

lethalfalcon

  • Level 5
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Why won't insomnia leave me alone?
    • View Profile
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2009, 11:19:11 AM »
Um... wow. Just wow.

I'm having a hard time cutting through the awesome to make my traditional bad news first routine (glass 3/4 empty type, I am). So, I guess I'll build off Cynic's post.

I think there was a flashback, with the fog. However, this sentence:
Quote
It washed over Cien, filling his ears with a rattle like dry lung tissue.
is not in the past participle form (It had washed over Cien). There are a couple of other sentences around there that muddy the water on whether it's a flashback, too. If it is a flashback, putting it in blockquote and italicizing it is a common method of indicating such. If it's not a flashback, the second paragraph needs rewritten, because it very much indicates a past event. I also think that perhaps you could mention Elenor's presence before the part about the mist, so that we know she's there at least.

I actually am a little confused about your prologue's title. It doesn't quite seem to fit what's going on in the scene. It's almost like that's what Chapter 1 should be, and this should be something like "An Empire Fallen" or somesuch. Dunno, it's your story, but it is something that I felt.

Well, that's about all the bad. Now, the good. The amount of detail given in your sentences is epic. It's so interwoven it never really stood out to me, but man could I visualize that whole chapter. I love it! I dunno whether I would pick up the book on a whim and just start reading it (unless you have a dragon on the cover. I'm a sucker for dragons on cover art... sans Eragon *shudder*), but having read the prologue, I would almost definitely continue reading it. I've read grittier material, and it's a change of pace from the traditional lighter tones I usually read.

One last thing: if the rest of the book is going to be lighter, why make this one so graphic? I'm not really complaining about the violence, but if the rest of the book doesn't have much, it'll be a bit of a letdown. The prologue is the hook because it sets the tone for the actual writing style of the book, not just the plot/characters.

Your (admittedly few) line-level edits are in your inbox, somewhere. Insert standard disclaimer about letting me know if you don't get them here. :)
I don't have good days. I have great days, where I'm a magician ridding the world of all evil, or at least everything I don't like. And then I wake up, and it's back to work for me.

Frog

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 578
  • Fell Points: 0
  • "Have a popover, Froggie!"
    • View Profile
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2009, 10:55:28 PM »
Well first off I am going to say that I really envy your descriptions and use of language. It was really impressive and makes me look forward to reading more and learning from you. Problem was that you alternated from what I am assuming would be a tense flight from a palace in ruin to blocks of description and back story that slowed things down, ruined some of the tension and had the tendency to be confusing. I think a lot of the tension would be displayed better if you were a bit more concise.

As to whether I would read it or not, well I'll be honest and tell you that longer prologues tend to put me off. In my eagerness to start the 'real' story, I often will use most any excuse to skip through them after the first few pages. That would probably be the case here, but all that really means is that I would be looking for the first chapter or a recommendation to make my decision for me.

Oh, and while I didn't find any of this overly graphic, I like others, would be concerned about the consistency, because based on this I would expect this novel to be more action driven and a tad bit gritty. Not a problem if that is what you are going for, and as I said I would usually withhold judgment for the first chapter, but I just want to make sure you are aware.

My tiny line-edits are on their way. Great first submit.

 :)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 10:59:33 PM by Frog »
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.

LongTimeUnderdog

  • Level 9
  • *
  • Posts: 304
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2009, 03:01:35 PM »
While it was gripping yes, the piece suffered from some inconsistencies that I feel should be noted, as well as rhythmic breaks in the writing that broke the action, tension, and atmosphere.

Historical stuff:

Okay its a fantasy.  That means that we can ignore history . . . almost.  More specifically, you're using ballistae and rapiers together, in the same place.  Admittedly our knowledge of the setting is very limited with even less about the tech levels.  Even with that in mind, however, the rapier was created and found popular use sometime around 1500.  While there is evidence of it first appearing before then, we can understand that fire arms, particularly cannons and explosives were in mass use starting in the mid 1200.  The invention and popularity of the rapier is in direct proportion to the increased popularity of fire arms and the loss in popularity of heavy armor.  So juxtaposing a ballista bolt (invented around the 1st century AD) and the rapier (invented long after firearms) caused me, as the reader to lose faith in the author.  This can simply be averted by changing one or the other, assuming there isn't some world built reason why there are ballistae and rapiers together. 

The Text Itself:

The text is really female.  But that's to be expected considering the author, hehe.

This female authorship is quite apparent, however, in much of the behaviors of the male characters.  They are very much pictures of men, as taken by women.  A perfect example of this is Cien charging a big monster waving a rapier around.  For someone who trains with a sword master and is quality rapier fighter, that seems entirely out of character, even given his young age.

The rapier, as seen in such books/movies as "The Three Musketeers," any number of pirate movies, "Princess Bride," and countless others carries with it a certain romance to it.  The dashing hero with great skill in tight pants and loose shirts, captaining his vessel (or horse).  Princes and dashing rogues.  If he really was trained in a rapier he would be approaching the beast in a shuffle or cross step run with his parry side (that's assume he's trained with a parrying dagger or Main Gauche) toward the opponent.  he also wouldn't fumble with his weapon.  He would use his left hand to hold the sheath or scabbard still while he dashed around.

The use of simile gave the piece a lot of strength.  However, some of the similes, such as the one involving back and crab legs break the rhythms of the lines/narration.  The length and sounds of them are often the sort of phrases used in comedies, which I gathered your book is not (as a whole verses individual parts).  These lengths of simile and sentences detract from the intensity of the moments as well.  This kid is running for his life, I think we should be feeling that urgency throughout the whole piece.  Yes, there should be hills and valleys but it an more action/suspense piece you will have a much greater impact if those dips are shallow.

I know this is rather "harsh" as people have said before but you've already been praised up and down by numerous other people.  I do hope, though, that this is a at least somewhat helpful in your rewrites and such (you know, in getting it ready to be published).

Frog

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 578
  • Fell Points: 0
  • "Have a popover, Froggie!"
    • View Profile
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2009, 05:11:00 PM »
The text is really female.  But that's to be expected considering the author, hehe.
You say that like it's a bad thing.  ::)
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.

Andrew the Great

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 967
  • Fell Points: 0
  • If that never happened again, it would be too soon
    • View Profile
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2009, 11:49:00 PM »
Hmm... I didn't get this one. Sadness.
Sign on wall: "We're doing everything we can to get you to the math lab and get you help."
Random girl: "That explains so much about the way my professors have been teaching..."

"Look! I can play Mary had a little lamb on my rape whistle!"

Executor of Chaos' Opinions in the Event of His Absence

vegetathalas

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Jenn's World
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 10:51:23 PM »
1) Sorry, that you didn't get the prologue, Andrew. If you want I can email it to you. My email address is time to innovate (all one word) at gmail.

2) Addressing the history point made by Underdog, magic takes the place of gunpowder. Heavy armor is a lot less useful when a mage melts it/you into a steaming pile of goop. You're right on the "waving," though. It's the wrong verb, so thanks. I think you're confused though about the swashbuckling aspects. Cien is no Princess Bride character. He's a pimply, naive child who yes, fumbles at his weapons, because his training was a joke and (until now) the sight of blood made him faint. I'll try to clear that up a little.

3) Anyway, I'll do my best to work on the pacing issues now that I've had them pointed out to me. Sorry I haven't been on the boards for awhile, my computer is fussy. Thanks for all your comments, I really do appreciate them. I'm working on the backlog of edits, so expect my own comments on everyone else's old stuff to start showing up soon.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 10:56:05 PM by vegetathalas »

Andrew the Great

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 967
  • Fell Points: 0
  • If that never happened again, it would be too soon
    • View Profile
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2009, 11:42:42 PM »
For whatever reason, this actually came through shortly after I posted that i didn't get it. I'm not sure what the issue was, but I have it now, so I'll critique it when I have a bit more time later tonight.
Sign on wall: "We're doing everything we can to get you to the math lab and get you help."
Random girl: "That explains so much about the way my professors have been teaching..."

"Look! I can play Mary had a little lamb on my rape whistle!"

Executor of Chaos' Opinions in the Event of His Absence

Andrew the Great

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 967
  • Fell Points: 0
  • If that never happened again, it would be too soon
    • View Profile
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 07:36:22 AM »
Ok, just finished this one (sorry that it's so late).

Initial thoughts....wow. This is very similar to other books that I read and love, so very very good. Has a very gritty, Dark-Fantasy type feel.

This could be both a good thing and a bad thing. You mention that the rest of the book lightens up a bit. You want to make sure that you're not making promises in your prologue that your not going to deliver on. The prologue sets the tone as a strong dark fantasy. If you're going to lighten it up, I'd lighten the prologue just a bit too. Otherwise, the dark-fantasy crowd are going to be disappointed, and many of the lighter people won't get to the actual story.

If you're going to keep the same general feel, though, this is fantastic. Kept me reading straight through to the end, and I can't wait to get more.

I didn't notice any grammatical mistakes that really took me out of world, so I'll ignore those.

As others have mentioned, there was some confusion as to whether Cien actually had a flashback or not. The calm moments were good, but it also made it seem less urgent that they get out, which later seemed suddenly very important.

Quick question. Is this supposed to be in our world, or a different one? I was a little confused when you talked about dragons and all sorts of other traditional fantasy elements (like sorcery), and then all of a sudden we get Philosophies of Erasmus. You might consider making up the name of a philosopher from your alternate-reality/other world, since it kind of confused me as to the setting.

Other than that, though, I have very very few qualms with this. Thanks for a great read! 
Sign on wall: "We're doing everything we can to get you to the math lab and get you help."
Random girl: "That explains so much about the way my professors have been teaching..."

"Look! I can play Mary had a little lamb on my rape whistle!"

Executor of Chaos' Opinions in the Event of His Absence

vegetathalas

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Jenn's World
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 03:49:10 AM »
Heh. Erasmus was supposed to be a made-up name. I didn't realize he was real until a little bit ago...

Google before you write, I suppose.

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2009, 04:25:48 AM »
Heh. Erasmus was supposed to be a made-up name. I didn't realize he was real until a little bit ago...

Google before you write, I suppose.

Since you already gave me the title of another book, I didn't see a problem with it. That, and I didn't recognize the philosopher's name, which probably helped.

I'm going to take a more dissenting point of view in this critique than the others. I did have some problems with the piece, mostly with the matter of character.

But whoa, your prose is amazing. Unequivocally, your use of figurative language is phenomenal. I'm jealous! If the rest of the book reads stylistically like this chapter, I will be immensely pleased--and jealous. Words can't describe how awesome the language is. Perhaps you could create an apt metaphor describing it? Even if your "tone" changes to something a bit lighter (or even a lot lighter), I won't care, as long as the prose feels as figurative as this. I don't want to say it's flowery, but... "visual"? Lush! Yes, lush is the right word. The level of figurative languages would take me an extremely long time to come close to, so I have to wonder how long you spent crafting it. Time well spent, in my opinion.

One slight thing about the similes/metaphors: I noticed you used "grease" to describe multiple things. I think I counted four separate occasions. The first two times I didn't realize, but once the third and fourth time rolled along, I worried you were recycling the same adjectives. Not a huge deal, but just something for you to watch out for.

So in review, your writing is best when it is dealing with concrete details and action. Once we get away from those areas (which were thankfully frequent) that I had some difficulty believing. Specifically, character.

But first, the flashbacks. You definitely had flashbacks. The first one was jarring, because I wasn't used to your style enough (I'm not used to this kind of flowing language at all, honestly), and by the second or third, I wasn't surprised from the flashbacks, but I didn't think they added anything to the scene at hand. You move from the scene at hand into a page-long of equally excellent prose--multiple times--but it feels... ancillary. You're telling us what had happened, when it felt not relevant. Does it matter that we know so specifically how his brother died?

The character didn't seem directly motivated from that bit of information. That flashback felt like "well, maybe I should show them how it happened!" only all it added was more concepts we didn't fully understand (and didn't matter in the context of the scene). Instead of fleshing the story out, it was an info-dumpy flashback. Now, if you have a really good reason for doing it, of course, it's acceptable. But to me, it seemed like a telly moment for the sake of telling, rather doing multiple things at once, like enriching character.

This isn't a book killer, but this really raises a red flag in my opinion: Cien doesn't have depth. That doesn't mean his actions didn't make sense. On the contrary, the one conflict we had (the interpersonal conflict between him and his family, specifically his family) was engrossing! The Mad King was a fantastic character, mostly because he had an interesting hook. You didn't know what he was going to say, and that was scary. On top of the scary scene you already cast, I could argue you could make this scene into full-on horror if you wanted to. Would not be hard at all, and would be awesome. Maybe you should be a horror writer? ;)

Cien, however, lacked a sense of self. I understand his conflicts (At max, two, one with the family, the second with struggling with his sister's death, though they go so hand-in-hand I'm tempted to call them the same thing), but these are events. He doesn't have motivations unique to him, which make him special. He feels a little like a generic fantasy prince, trying to live up to his father's expectations. It's cool, but by itself, you can't carry the book. He's not deep enough to carry a novel.

Here my stream-of-consciousness notes:

----

Whoa. Your use of figurative language is powerful. Excellent, excellent job. Though, the story felt a little jarring at the beginning. Not the prose itself, per se, but the infodump of the Lomari on page three seemed out of character for Cien, a Lomari, to think. It pulled me out of the story, because I automatically assumed Cien was just a human. I'm a little conflicted here. On one hand, it actually worked well, but on the other hand, I didn't know Cien was something stranger, so when it was officially revealed, I had to pause and read back. Probably not the best thing on the third page.

A fifteen year old is consoling Cien? I guess this completely depends on how old Cien is, but I'm not at all certain of his age, or even if it is a concern to Lomari.

Your figurative language is amazing. It makes me feel like there is a real narrator painting a picture for me. It's amazing.

I'm not sure the information about how the other princes died is necessary for the scene. You could sum it up as "Cien was the heir now." The flashbacky thing doesn't seem pertinent to the drama of the scene itself. I know what just happened was horrible, but I don't need to know how it happened I want Cien solving the immediate conflict right now, or at least, I want a picture painted of the present. The images like "The swordmaster would never be seeing anything ever again" are fantastic, pithy lines which help in this regard.

You use the word "grease" a lot. I'd let up on it. It's a powerful sensation, but I think I've seen it three times so far. Make that four.

---

I hit on a lot of these already, but I think I said it differently enough there to justify making you slog through it :P

The Lomari were interesting, and I wanted to see more conflict between them and the humans, because unless you establish something weird about the characters immediately, I will inherently assume they are human. This is probably the most interesting aspect of world thus far. They are race who are racist against humans, and I want to know why. And, for that matter, how the Falcon Emperor could use these Shards to defeat them.

On a more subtle note, I read your prologue-scripture thing you posted here before reading the chapter, and in conjunction with the Mad King, the line “If even the Gods are mad, what chance do mere mortals have?” carries a lot more weight. I wonder Cien will turn mad just the same? Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Quote
The text is really female.  But that's to be expected considering the author, hehe.

This female authorship is quite apparent, however, in much of the behaviors of the male characters.  They are very much pictures of men, as taken by women.  A perfect example of this is Cien charging a big monster waving a rapier around.

I didn't overtly notice the text being female, but Cien did not seem developed as much as he should be for a viewpoint character.

Now, Jenn, I liked the piece. Well, I liked the prose. You've yet to sell me on the important elements of character, plot, and setting. After how amazing the prose was, I expect an equal awesomeness in everything else! (Which might be a word of caution to new writers: "Don't write too well!" Haha)
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

vegetathalas

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Jenn's World
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2009, 05:42:18 AM »
Thanks, Chaos, I really appreciate the depth of your comments. I'll have to think about how I can make Cien more 'believable as a character. If you think of anything, let me know.

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2009, 06:09:07 AM »
Oh, he's believable, but he's just believable in one respect. The conflict that you did set up works wonderfully. He simply needs more conflicts, or more hints of them. Seems to me that people always have at least ten different things on the kettle at the same time (Of course, I may be biased, considering I'm at the week before finals week here at MSU), so he should be pulled apart in multiple ways.

Since you asked, here's a bunch of different conflicts you could work with:

Internal Conflict - Overcoming something within ones' self. Overcoming flaws (character may not necessarily have to realize he is flawed). In Cien's particular case, we do have a moment when he overcomes his weakness and stands up to his father. That was a powerful moment. But that conflict has been resolved, at least in the context of the scene. So I have to wonder how you are going to deepen his character beyond this.

Interpersonal Conflict - Fairly self explanatory :). I'd think romance would qualify in this category, too.

Then there's  external conflicts, like clashes with culture, environment, and perhaps his religion, if you want to have spiritual conflicts in there. It all depends on what kind of book you want to write. Personally, I love my outlines, so this strategy may not work for you.

The difficulty is balancing a cool, three dimensional character in a scene. Which conflicts should you hit on? How can you show a character is realistic? I have no idea! My current strategy is to throw a bunch different elements on the page and have the reader want to figure out how it fits together. Or something like that. Mystery can be intriguing, and intrigue can keep a reader moving forward.

Was that helpful at all?
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

vegetathalas

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Jenn's World
Re: Godsplay Prologue
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2009, 07:13:47 PM »
Yeah, I'll think about it. Cien is kind of a side character, so there's only so much I want to flesh out, but I suspect I can bring a little more of the internal conflict to the forefront.