Author Topic: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4  (Read 2046 times)

LongTimeUnderdog

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NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« on: November 09, 2009, 05:36:32 PM »
After some careful rearranging and rewriting, I have determined that this should be the fourth chapter staring Jin'Cathul (verses one of the other PoV characters).  Everything added takes place in the past (i.e. in previous chapters) from the one I submitted before, so you haven't actually missed anything, other then watching Jin analyse the tar out of everything.

Have fun, enjoy, and go a head and be mean.

Recovering_Cynic

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2009, 10:07:41 PM »
Thoughts while reading:

Okay, Mahala acts like she's five.  Is that intentional?

As to Jin's character, be careful.  There is a fine line between downtrodden and whiny.  Yeah, he can have low self esteem, but he still has to be likable.

I had some misconceptions about where the slave pits were.  I got the impression they were very isolated with nothing around to keep the slaves from running away, and yet it was a relatively short journey to the bazaar.  You might give us more details on the setting.

What is this about the "winds gathering things and making them dance".  Is this real wind?  Or is it a magical phenomenon?  It's not clear. 

Jin alternates from being amazingly humble and submissive to being impertinent.  Is that intentional?  It's hard to reconcile.

You switch POV to Lady Maz for a second:  "The cold hand of fear clutched Lady Maz by the throat."

Hmm... there needs to be a bit of a slow down before the end of the chapter.  It ends very abruptly.


Okay, overall impression:

I enjoyed the chapter.  It was intriguing and you tell a really good story.  I'm really interest in where this all ends up.  As I mentioned earlier, the characters are a little bit inconsistent.  The girl at times acts like she's five, and other times like a sophisticated adult.  Jin is at times completely subservient, and then turns around and mouths off.  He is grateful for his opportunity to escape, then whines about his new circumstances (even before he is slapped down).  Other than the characterization--and grammar stuff that needs a lot of polishing--the plotting is very interesting and I really want to know where your story goes.  Don't worry so much about revising it right now, just keep going and come back and fix this later.  There's nothing here that is broken, nothing that can't be fixed later.

Well done!
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

Frog

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2009, 06:25:18 AM »
I am sending you my line edits. I may have gotten a little carried away with commenting, but I guess more is better than less, right? Anyway I hope you find at least some of it helpful.

Mostly I am going to agree with Cynic. Some of the characters seemed inconsistent, though again I did not have any real beef with Jin besides that. I am still struggling with the girls. I've pretty much accepted that those in the slavers society are going to be extreme and I do think having some of that can add some interesting conflict, but then the new girl you set up from what I am assuming is a 'normal' society acting out in the same vein. It is almost to the point where I am a little offended on behalf of my gender and am just waiting for the chainmail bikinis to start showing up since you already have the whip. :P

Okay, so maybe it isn't quite that bad, and I am really hoping some other female will come on here and tell me that I am just being overly sensitive, but you do have my guard up at the very least.

One more thing I think I should mention is that you tend to have long breaks of just discription. I would try to break those up and spread those out so they are mixed with dialogue action and whatever else just to keep the story moving through those parts.

I did like a lot of the world building in this part and I am still pulling for Jin at least, so please keep at it.

Good luck. :)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 07:55:07 AM by Frog »
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lethalfalcon

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2009, 10:25:24 AM »
Interesting, an amazonian-like society. I shall stay away from the Salts (and marriage), for I value my independence. :)

I think my biggest problem with this chapter is that I have trouble picturing most of the characters. It's probably due to the inconsistencies that have already been mentioned. One specific part that caught me up was when Maz smacked Jin at the end. Is she actually that muscular to be pulling around (what I assumed to be) a grown man, and then hit him hard enough to drive him to his knees and bruise him? Or is Jin just not that old, really. He certainly acts mature, but he's referred to as both a man and a boy in nearly the same paragraph, so it's really hard to place his age (I also haven't read anything else, so this is new material to me).

One other possible continuity issue is on the part Where Maz is pushing through the crowd and people are shouting obscenities. You state that some of them are in languages that Jin had never heard, but he knows nine languages. Are there seriously that many different dialects in this small area that they're speaking yet another language besides those nine? I suppose it's possible, but from a linguistic view, there are about a dozen languages in all of Europe (I think), and some of them are similar enough to catch the gist of. I'd expect his ears to be turning red because he knows what they're saying. Just a thought, though.

However, a lot of your scenewriting is really good. I can get a good feel of the bazaar, the people (it feels Arabian, to me), and it's a bit of a different pace, with no magic (that I see, anyway). Although, it does seem like knowledge itself is quite dangerous in this world, so that might be its own magic. Gimme more!

Also, line edits are being sent. Let me know if you don't get them (I should make this my sig)
I don't have good days. I have great days, where I'm a magician ridding the world of all evil, or at least everything I don't like. And then I wake up, and it's back to work for me.

LongTimeUnderdog

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2009, 11:53:33 AM »
Thanks for the input everyone. 

Time to do a little respondin' . . .

Lethalfalcon:  Before the foundation of things like . . . countries . . . in places like Africa (where most of the story's research has been in) almost every tribe/clan/village had a different way of speaking.  Many of them were not even close (see bushman vs Zulu as an example).

Maz really is that strong yes, though it helps Jin is somewhere between 12 years old and 14 (still undecided).

Frog:`It's good to have a chick stand up and say "this offends me!"  I appreciate that.  While I'm trying not to offend people, thematically I feel that using this kind of behavior is justified, so you'll have to forgive me somewhat.  The chainmail bikini comment was funny, but more on that later.

Cynic: Yes Mahala acts like she's five.  Perhaps some more reactiveness (yes I made up a word) from Jin would help establish that.  You are, as always, very helpful in giving me what I need to hear.

The Setting:  I can see I'm going to have to clarify some things in the story and have already started a chapter discussing these clarifications.  So I'd say this whole internet writing group has been very helpful to me, you guys are awesome. 

Originally I had hoped to leave some of this into a more subtle frame but I think an explanation here will do some good.

This world does not have cotton (or any real quantity of linen for that matter).  Plants like cotton require certain things like water to grow.  Since most of this story takes place in a desert of a land that has been salted (the Salts) there just isn't any place to grow those kinds of plants until you get near the ocean.  That means that everything we, as modern people, think of as textile materials does not exist, or must be imported at great costs.  Yes I did mention silk but you'll notice that those are also foreigners to the region coming in, selling it.  This means that, for the most part, only the very rich will have any kind of real clothing and the normal/poor people will have very little.

Poor people would have to rely on animals for clothing.  Because of the lack of vegetation these animals would have to be carnivorous (and yeah, you'd really want that near your children) or kept in small quantities so as to not use up the feed and resources to quickly.  You also can't just kill the animals for hides and stuff, since they also produce things like . . . milk, eggs (if they lay eggs), and carry luggage.  This means that once a piece of clothing has worn out, replacing it comes at a very great cost.  Skin heals, shirts don't.

Now about the Chainmail Bikini comment.

Historically there are two kinds of military people:  those that had a lot of armor, and those that did not.  If you look through world cultures and check out ancient fighter types, you'll see this.  Romans had lots of armor, zulu did not.  Native Americans really didn't do a lot of armor, Europeans had plate armor.  the list is fairly extensive.  The Celts are another good example (the kind of people that Conan is based on).

The Celts were formed from a great number of cultures given the title Barbarian or Celt depending on who was speaking about them.  This is one of the few collections of people where the women fought with any kind of regularity in the military.  The Chainmail Bikini came out of people trying to create fantastic versions of these Celtic fighting women and remains historically inaccurate only in the sense the the woman is actually wearing anything at all.  Celtic women, and Men fought naked (for the most part).

And there are a good number of other historical preferences for this as well.

I'd go into more detail but I have to run.  thanks again for your comments, you all are wonderful.  I look forward to hearing from more people, and you guys in the future!

Frog

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2009, 06:24:59 PM »
Hey, do what you have to do. A book that characterized all women as obnoxious Bs all day long wouldn't interest me personally for the long run, but that doen't mean you won't have a good size audaince else where.

As for the clothing... insteresting. True that going naked does sound a bit more appealing then wearing one of those monstrousities but I was under the impression that more civilized socties (like the greeks) did that kind of thing in the arena, where those of the opposite gender were not permitted. I could be wrong, as you have obviously done more research in that area than I, but I would think at the very least that if this was a condition common to the whole region, the characters would have lost the urge to oogle everything in sight at some point. It would just be common place. And it also makes me wonder how such a seemingly large population survived so long without much natural resources around and a poorer shipping/trading system. If it is so devoid of resources, what exactly is the attraction for them to settle here in the first place?
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.

RavenstarRHJF

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2009, 02:44:51 PM »
Ok, so... I'm really not getting why being educated and a boy/man is such a bad thing here.  Beyond the obvious reasons that you don't want your majority of slaves to be too knowledgeable because they might get it into their heads to revolt.  I guess what I'm saying, is that I don't understand why Jin knowing nine languages is a bad thing.

I'm also pretty interested in how he ended up in the Pits to begin with.  Apparently his father was murdered.  But why not just kill him, too?  Is it a 'conquest' thing? (since you said most of the research was based on African tribes, and it was a fairly common practice with them to enslave their conquered enemies)  If it's the 'conquest' mentality, I'm surprised the Hellfane women would allow an autonomous male trader into their lands, particularly since he's so very talented.  Seems to me they'd make him a slave under some pretext.

Agree with what's been said about Mahala.  She is distinctly odd, and the only reason I can think of for her to be that way is because she is either mentally handicapped, or her mother encouraged her to develop that way- possibly to ensure that she wouldn't challenge her in the future.

I'm looking forward to more, if only to find out the answers to some of my questions.
A crown does not a King make, nor the lack of one a commoner.

LongTimeUnderdog

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2009, 05:32:12 AM »
I suppose the largest problem with fully understanding the piece is that I've only posted chapters relating to Jin'Cathul, verses Anaiah, Guli, or Zulbane.  Some (not all) of your questions are answered there.

that said, I appreciate your input terribly.  I think you're right on, now that I've read your thoughts and compared them to the text, in you concerns.  Thank you so much.

vegetathalas

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2009, 12:09:28 AM »
All right, this is weeks late...but things happen, you know?

First of all, I really like the opening idea of the slaves performing well when other slaves are watching but not when they aren't. I think that's an interesting image.

Second, while I worry that the men as slaves/women as mistresses could be offensive/annoying/lead to becoming one of those obnoxious "anvilicious" stories--it's not there for me yet. Nothing has offended/annoyed me yet. However, if I picked up a book and this was in the first few pages, I would be slightly apprehensive. The apprehension rattled up to 500 when I saw Mahala's treatment of Jin. I'd be worried about it, but I wouldn't stop reading. However, some of the dialogue does feel eye-rollingly preachy, which seems to be in Maz's character, so that's okay. But if all characters sound like this, it would be a challenge to keep reading.

Okay, this line DID annoy me. "Right now I'm finding it difficult enough not to stop and try on every gown we pass.” Because shopping is obviously a compulsion that we women cannot resist. So is neon pink nail polish and Edward Cullen.

Third, naturally, from my own writing, you can tell that I love a smorgasbord of detail. I'd like to see the smells and tastes and textures of your world. I know that you have them because I'm sure you put a lot of research and thought into details, but I'm not seeing them except at the Bazaar. I don't even know if the litter is closed or open, if the slave pit is literally a pit or just a name. Slaves make me think of Rome, but if you're doing Africa, then I need to get a little more of that detail a little earlier. I'm wondering why women have managed to remain on top given their disadvantages of strength (Religious taboos? Female ownership of all metal?), but I'm intrigued enough that I can wait to find out.

Fourth, I'm not seeing the thoughts/feelings I'd expect from a boy journeying out in the slave pits for the first time. He doesn't seem nervous or afraid, which is odd to me. I'd like to see why he isn't right off, and maybe get a little deeper impressions of everyone. Did he know Burm in the slave pits? Has he ever seen a woman before in his life? What's the age of his mistress? Is her smile kind? How in the world did he maintain any dignity or intelligent thought if he lived in the Slave Pits, which are apparently so horrible he'd rather be a living coat looking forward to his hanger?

I think you've set yourself up with an awkward info-dump via dialogue in this chapter because you're doing Jin and Burm's stories both at once. I'd rather have you focus on them one at a time. At the end of the chapter, I don't feel like I know much about anyone, except that Jin can read and is stupid enough to admit it, Burm likes fighting, and Maz is probably one of those mistresses who thinks she's kind to her slaves when she's really just unkind. I like the eating bugs part, though. I agree that the characters feel a little inconsistent, but I suspect that's because I don't understand their background.

Five, you're dumping a lot of terms I don't understand. As a reader, if I don't know what's going on right from the start, I'm probably not going to stick around to find out what Chatooks and Calorites are. I'm very confused when I should be sucked in. And Calorite makes me giggle, because I think of calories. Given your extensive knowledge of weaponry, Chatooks could be a real weapon, but I'm not familiar with it so you'll have to explain it to me anyway. I faced the same thing with "tonsure" -- my friends in another critique group thought it was a world-word when it was really a real word that you could find in the dictionary so I had to explain it anyway.

I also think there's a lot of excess dialogue that can be trimmed away. I'm not really feeling much tension in this scene after the first few pages. I'd like to see Jin introduced in a scene with more action. Maybe skip the litter and start with him having to defend himself in the slave barracks or Jin translating at the armor shop.

What's the difference between the market street and the Bazaar? Normally, I'd think a market street would be a part of the Bazaar.

Six, I'm really confused by the smith since I presume that anyone without a mistress would be kicked out of the city. Or something. There would be some penalty, I'd think, because they'd serve as a bad example to other slaves. If this isn't a woman slave-owner city, than why would they keep the slave pits here? Odd that the Smith accepts the job without any payment offered or dickering.

Anyway, I'm intrigued by the world and looking forward to reading more. The pace is a little slow and I feel like the characters are more caricatures than real people, but these things can both be ironed out in revisions. Line edits are in the email. My only obscure symbol (--) is a place where I've deleted something, usually a redundancy.

Any questions, just ask.

LongTimeUnderdog

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2009, 04:15:28 AM »
Most of your questions were actually covered in the previous chapter, particularly what a Chatook is.  But to answer your question, it's a club about three and a half feet long with murt (giant lizards that run on two feet and are about eight feet long from head to tail) teeth wedged into the wood (or bone is some cases).   Holes are drilled into the teeth so they whistle (though some naturally have the proper holes in them) when swung.  It's a show piece for gladiators.  think of all the extra sound effects they add to fights in movies, like The Matrix.

vegetathalas

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2009, 08:47:24 AM »
Ah, bingo. I'd forgotten that I wasn't reading the first chapter of the book.

Silk

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Re: NOv. 9 LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jincathul 1:4
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2009, 06:59:18 AM »
Why did Jin not know that knowing how to read and write are are punishable by death in the Salts?

I have no problem with Jin knowing how to read or knowing multiple languages. But it does suggest that he enjoyed a certain amount of luxury as a child--his family had enough money to buy books (which will be more or less of an issue depending on whether the printing press has been invented yet) and possibly a tutor. At the very least, he'll have had time to learn himself and someone will have had time to teach him, which is a pretty significant luxury depending on when and where you're at.

Burm is surprised to find out that Maz knows hs father, even though she said as much--right in front of him--earlier. Something similar happens later, when Jin wonders why Maz bought him if she knew he was so clumsy with a weapon, even though his previous owner had told Maz as much, while Jin was present.

The way you're setting up male-female differences makes them pretty significant. It seems like they think each other are almost different species, rather than just different genders. This is not a problem, necessarily, but is probably worth mentioning.

it also seems like Mahala, at least, has had very little exposure to men--she hardly seems to know what they are. In fact, I'm getting the impression that there's a very pronounced seperation between men and women which seems a little bit... odd. I could fairly easily imagine a society in which there's not much contact with slaves (though this becomes a bit more difficult if your mother is a slave trader) but surely the delineation between male and female non-slaves can't be THAT strict. Again, there are certainly ways that you could construct this logically; maybe you've already done so and we'll find out later. That's fine. Again, it just seemed worth mentioning.

I'm actually starting to get the impression that ALL men are actually slaves. And while I won't often say never, I would probably have a hard time buying that one if it turns out to be the case.

I kind of assumed that Mahala was older at first, but here she seems very young. Eight, maybe.

I find myself liking Maz. I also enjoyed the way you handled her outburst (if you want to call it that) in the smith's tent, when Jin says, "ask him what?". I thought her reaction was portrayed with just the right amount of subtlety here.

Maz tells Jin that she will beat him for his "casualness". I don’t think this is a word. I don’t normally care too much about that in dialogue but here it kind of jolted me. Also, she was perfectly free with him before. Or is it just that she’s still in a bad mood after her encounter with the smith?

Jin tells her that he can speak nine languages, and for a sentence you slip into her point of view; "the cold hand of fear..." etcetera. You can convey the same information from Jin's point of view; having her step back "as if hit by a club" is probably enough to do that on its own, in fact.

Also, I'm quite willing to believe that Jin is good with a number of languages (especially considering his youth), but... nine seems like a LOT--and this is coming from someone who is pretty proficient with languages. I've heard that people can only learn four or five languages at most before they start having difficulties picking up another. Now, don't quote me on that, as I can't remember where I got the information from, but nine still seems like an awful lot. And it indicates that he's very well-traveled for his age. Either that, or there's a LOT of mixing of cultures going on in your society.

So far, it's all good. I bounce back and forth on whether I like Maz as a personality--I'm not sure I would go out with her for coffee (err, especially since I don't drink coffee, but you know what I mean)--but as a character I'm liking her more and more. So good job there. I'm still interested to see where the story goes from here. And that's about all I have, so I'll just close with a few quick responses to what others have said:

I wholeheartedly agree that some more setting details, specifically geographic ones, would be helpful if inserted into the submissions you've given us so far. I think you'll need to provide us more on the cultural aspects of your world soon, but as far as I'm concerned that can be safely left to upcoming chapters.

Regarding what Frog said about the gender issues: I think the presentation of genders here still has the potential to be problematic. I'm not sure it IS problematic yet.

Having Jin comment on how young Mahala is acting will probably help clarify a bit. But I still can't place her age--I honestly have NO idea. I think we need to be able to place her age a little more definitely before you go screwing around with how (im)mature she acts. (Her alternating the way she acts can totally be a legitimate part of her character. It's just that I have no idea where to place her in terms of age, so unless there's already been a very solid hint about her age in the text that I just missed, I think you need to give us that.)

Your research on the clothing and stuff made a lot of sense (and that bit about cotton and such not being common will be useful to me, since I have a book set in, well, an almost-desert, so thanks! XP), but one thing you have to consider is that your readers won't have done the same research. It's entirely possible that another woman reading the book will also see domineering women running around in scanty clothing and go, "Oh, chainmail bikini. Pfft.".

I was also a little surprised at the presence of a free male smith in the bazaar. Vegas is right, one would assume that at the least he would be heavily penalized for his presence there. Then again, with the way Maz marvelled over his work, its possible that they think his stuff is so valuable they don't bother to penalize him? Or he does well enough for himself that those penalties (extra taxes or whatever) don't matter? Still a bit surprising that he hasn't been mugged in the night, though. Or worse.