Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Reading Excuses => Topic started by: Necroben on February 12, 2009, 03:22:51 AM
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How would some of you approach this? Reference languages in our “present” world? Or just make up something whole cloth?
I’m kicking around the idea of just writing backwards.
Sdraw kcab gnitirw tsuj fo aedi eht dnuora gnikcik mi.
Now me personally, I don't like the new language's then an interpretation. So for me, this is just a way to convey confusion about what these other people are saying, by showing it. What do y'all think?
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I don't use new languages in my works, but I would begin with simple grammar rules instead of words. Example, non possessive pronouns go at the end of a sentence: Went to the store, did they. Or something to that extent.
As for actual words, I would read up on how Tolkien created languages. I believe that he had some kind of linguistics degree and used it to make the elves’ language from scratch. I’d also look at Gene Wolfe and some of his Sun Cycle series (he’s said to have written the original in a “yet to be achieved” language, and then had literally translated it back to English). Wolfe would probably be harder to find any info on because he doesn’t even have a website, but you could look through transcripts of interviews to try and find anything useful.
Personally, I would just borrow linguistics from an existing language and uses those pronunciation rules to make neat sounding words.
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Tolkien did not make any language from scratch. He studied old Saxon as well as several Scandinavian languages. The different dialects of Elvish and Dwarvish were basked on certain languages.
I would suggest studying the sentence structure of a language that you like or want to imitate.
For my odd languages I cheat and just use Latin, Greek and Hebrew. Fits my stories.
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Well Tolkien wanted Middle-earth to be identical with our world, at least at first, so borrowing from real languages fit into his world, sort of. Unless you're considering writing an epic saga consisting of twenty or so novels, I'd recommend not making up any entirely new languages. ;)
Myself, I'd just leave the actual words of the language out altogether, and describe only what they sound like. And then you can of course cheat and simply listen to a few strange languages for a general idea of their sound.
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May a non-RE member interject an opinion?
Please do not make up a language unless you're willing to put some serious research into it. Ideally this should mean studying the principles of linguistics (especially phonetics, morphology and syntax) until you understand what real languages can and cannot do. An acceptable shortcut (as Montoya suggested) would be copying the principles of an existing language. I would even say you could get away with combining the sounds of one language with the structure of another. Just please do not randomly make stuff up, including things like grammar rules (sorry maxonennis, your example sounded like Yoda but not like any real language I've studied or heard of - please correct me if you actually did take your example from reality), unless you know what you're doing and are sure that real languages can actually behave that way.
The thing that annoyed me the most about the Mistborn books was Spook's dialect and how little linguistic sense it made. Now I know that readers like me who have studied some linguistics are probably a minority of your audience, but surely you'd prefer to avoid annoying us anyway, just as you'd prefer to write your fight scenes in such a way as not to grate on people who have studied swordplay. So I would say that if it's important to your story to include a new language, give it some research and thought and planning; if it's not important enough to take that time, then leave it out. I don't object if authors make up a few words here and there (though I still prefer it when they're phonetically consistent), but when they start putting in whole made-up sentences I start looking for linguistic patterns and cringing if there aren't any.
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I think that unless you are going to slowly expect the reader to start understanding the language, then don't write out full sentences with translations. However, a word here and there are fun sometimes.
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Funny, one of my favorite things about Mistborn was Spooks dialect. I found it hilarious.
Not to be rude, but sometimes trying to hold to "true" to life is a detriment to a good fable. If you are trying to hold close to how things are, then by all means do so... but it is fantasy, it is your world. If people want to talk in a way the no one on planet earth would ever talk... by all means do so.
Usually a made up language is used to give the reader just a hint at what is actually being talked about, or to hide it from them completely. If that is the case, it "sounding" realistic to me is not necessary. It would be nice, but not something I as a reader will lose any sleep over (or interest in the story for that matter.)
But then when I read a story I really care more about the plot and the characters than the fact that perhaps something "really isn't possible" in the real world. Not to pick on anyone, but in a recent review someone pointed out that it is actually very difficult to puncture straight through someones chest with a sword due to the Breastbone providing tremendous defense. Now changing it so that it sides through a rib instead is probably a good idea since it actually is more possible, but if I read a story where someone was stabbed through the chest, franky I don't really care how possible it is. I can see that in my mind, I can feel it, so what if it not terribly realistic.
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(sorry maxonennis, your example sounded like Yoda but not like any real language I've studied or heard of - please correct me if you actually did take your example from reality
I was just making something up off of the top of my head, not giving a "use this" exsample". As I've said, I don't create new languages and wouldn't know where to start.
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Funny, one of my favorite things about Mistborn was Spooks dialect. I found it hilarious.
Yes, but dialects are completely different than languages. Dialects are much easier and I have to agree that they were fun.
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Funny, one of my favorite things about Mistborn was Spooks dialect. I found it hilarious.
Not to be rude, but sometimes trying to hold to "true" to life is a detriment to a good fable. If you are trying to hold close to how things are, then by all means do so... but it is fantasy, it is your world. If people want to talk in a way the no one on planet earth would ever talk... by all means do so.
Usually a made up language is used to give the reader just a hint at what is actually being talked about, or to hide it from them completely. If that is the case, it "sounding" realistic to me is not necessary. It would be nice, but not something I as a reader will lose any sleep over (or interest in the story for that matter.)
But then when I read a story I really care more about the plot and the characters than the fact that perhaps something "really isn't possible" in the real world. Not to pick on anyone, but in a recent review someone pointed out that it is actually very difficult to puncture straight through someones chest with a sword due to the Breastbone providing tremendous defense. Now changing it so that it sides through a rib instead is probably a good idea since it actually is more possible, but if I read a story where someone was stabbed through the chest, franky I don't really care how possible it is. I can see that in my mind, I can feel it, so what if it not terribly realistic.
Clearly, we all have different preferences, and different opinions on what makes a good story. I didn't mean to be rude in expressing mine. Sorry. I have neither knowledge nor aspirations in the fiction-writing field, so take what I say with a grain of salt. However, I have studied languages and linguistics, and fake languages in stories tend to get me worked up one way or another, so I wanted to add my thoughts to this discussion.
Yes, but dialects are completely different than languages. Dialects are much easier and I have to agree that they were fun.
In my opinion, you need to be even more careful to be plausible with a dialect than with a whole new language - but again, that's just me.
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So long as you keep to your pattern then it's not TOOO hard IMO.
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I didn't mean to be rude in expressing mine. Sorry.
lol don't worry, you weren't rude. I was trying not to be rude while disagreeing with you somewhat. And yes, we all have different opinions on what makes a good story. Which is probably why I loved Joe Abercrombie's First Law series that many people hated, and I am having great difficulty foraging through "The Lies of Locke Lamora" by Scott Lynch that according to reviews everyone else loved. :D
No offense taken or given I hope.
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Nope, no offense, we're good.
I wanted to be extra sure I wasn't being a nuisance, especially since I'm not a regular poster on this board.
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Wow, these are great ideas!
Though with dialects, I believe I turned out to be a complete failure. It turned out to be just really annoying.
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Sometimes if I'm not in a very creative mood 8) I look up words from Welsh or Old Norse and kind of modify them…they're pretty unusual but some are really fitting to what I want to say.