Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!

[n8sumsion]

For my part, I still think his turn to the Dark Side was a little abrupt. Yes, I knew it was coming, so it wasn't a surprise when it did. I can't help thinking, though, that if I didn't already know he was going to turn, I would have been sitting in my seat wondering, "What the...?" when he does turn on Mace. I understand all his reasons for turning to the Dark Side, they are all valid reasons, but I think since we're so immersed in the setting and story, a lot of us are content to "connect the dots" and feel okay about it. Myself included, I'm willing to let it slide because I know it's a necessary part of the story, even though I'm a little dissatisfied with it.

But here's my real issue: so Anakin butchers the village of Sand People, he slaughters a group of little kids in the Jedi Temple, he helps orchestrate the slaughter of Jedi throughout the galaxy and helps the Emperor rule the galaxy... and then at the end of Return of the Jedi, he finally kills the Emperor, like all self-respecting Sith Apprentices are taught to do... and BAM he's back on the Light Side of the Force again? All is forgiven, buddy, welcome back? Small comfort to the hundreds he helped kill that he finally comes around and does what he should have done a couple decades earlier. It still seemed like a self-serving action to me anyway.

All in all, though, I felt this was the best of the 3 prequels. The light-saber battles alone were worth the price of my ticket. (Okay, granted, my work paid for the whole studio to go see the show opening day, so I didn't actually spend any of my own money. But it was worth my company's money to send me to the show!)

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

well, that's the thing about Lucas' story telling style: there's always a lot of dots to connect. If you want to flaw ep3 with this, you've got to flaw most of the entire series with it. note that he never, NEVER gives a reliable way to tell how much time passes.

as far as being redeemed, he DOES essentially save the future of the Jedi order, and bring balance to the force, and destroy the Sith. I think you're not giving his killing palpatine enough credit.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

it is possible that we are giving him too much credit though.
He is personally responsible for killing countless billions and almost all the Jedi.

I agree that it is small comfort to those he sent to their untimely deaths.

[CinderEllie]

ok, yeah, but is it out of sadness that he cuts Master Windu's arm off? and he's looking pretty onery when he marches into the Jedi Temple.

Well, weren't we talking about him killing the younglings? He's just crying there.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

he's not crying for them... he's crying for what he becomes.  

[CinderEllie]

I agree with you there. (Besides, I wasn't making any claim about WHY he was crying, just that he was crying. So at this point in time he was more sad than angry.)

[Oseleon]

The Jedi had gone too far down the detachment highway.  Something like Vader was Bound to happen sometime..

It is only THROUGH individual love that the Sith is destroyed and the Jedi restored (Now with balance)

Think of this
Vader's motive was love for his wife and Children (that they have a mother to raise them) Anakin Loved his family and was delighted that Padme was pregnant.  

When Vader rose in the armor.  He was told that his family was dead.  The Empror told him that Padme had died and by inferance, her child too.  

Vader had lost everything, the Jedi order, his mentor, his love,  all he had left is this new desire for power that acceptance of the Dark Side had awakened in him.  To bring order to the galaxy and make it the kind of galaxy he wanted.  It was Sauroman's dream, to eventualy overthrow the Dark Lord and rule in his stead.  
Love had given way to the weaker motivation of lust.  

Yoda and Obi-Wan understood this.  
They suspected that, if properly forced into making the choice between Love for his family, and the Empror, Vader could probabaly be turned.  
It would have been HOPELESS to train Luke to Defeat Darth Vader and Darth Sideous. Even if they could have started at birth.  It wasn't a sure thing...  
Sideous had killed 5 masters and defeated Yoda
and Vader was the Medichlorian Concieved creation of Sideous' master (so powerful he could use the force to create life)
Luke had only half of Vader's inherited Force Prowes.  The other half was Nabo Mundain..  
No, Luke could not be expected to defeat them.  Only Vader could destroy the sith... But Luke was the key
He just needed enough training to
1 Survive long enough for the conflict to bubble up in Vader
2 Resist the Darkside temptation that Sideous and Vader were BOUND to extend to him.  
He only needed rudimentry Jedi training... enough that you could give in a few months on Daghobah... And instruction and testing about the Dark Side (Yoda's Cave)
Before the purge, the Jedi Shunned attachment and held themselves in arrogant distance from outsiders.  
But the key to Luke's sucess was always his faith in his friends.  
For his friends he faces Vader on Bespin... Against the council of the "old guard"
For his friends he surrenders to Vader on Endor...
His Love for his sister brought him to the edge of the darkside... but he had been prepared and resisted...
His love for his father led to Anakin's reawakening and, at last, the destruction of the Sith... as in the prophecy.  

Luke was never the "Great Jedi"  He was just good enough not to get his head loped off in the first exchange...  
He was Yoda and Obi-Wan's tool to save Anakin.  
"Vader, You must face Vader"
I am sure the blue glowies taught him the rest he needed to restart the Jedi order later.  But as of ROTJ, he was a substandard Jedi meant only as a Catylist.  

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I agree completley, with two clarifications:

1) it wasn't a new lust for power. It extended at least as far back as early ep2 where he brags about his abilities. I could make a strong argument for this lust existing in the character when he first met Quigon.

2) more of a footnote/further commentary: the Sith were destroyed by the (re)conversion of one of the two Sith. It was not to be achieved through simple slaying of the Sith. This plan had never quite worked out as they'd expected. That was a major folly of the Jedi, thinking they could simply overpower the dark side, a folly which reflects their folly in cutting off human contact.

[Fellfrosch]

Excellent analysis, Oseleon, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

I actually feel really bad for Anakin after the whole thing is over... not through the acting, but because he's such a tragic character. His whole life is a bit of a sham. He's not anyones child, he has no relationships of lasting value, his love of his life dies, (and takes his kids with her in his mind)  and he ends up destroying the good and nurturing aspects of his life because he has no support system to keep him from doing it. He cant even keep his droids.  Rather than try to understand Anakin, Yoda and the Council keep him at arms distance, alienating him more, his relationship with Obi-wan while strong is easily subverted because Obi-wan is himself the product of a broken relationship (and Qui-gon was one of the most progressive jedi) if you rewatch episode I. Luke and Leia were at least loved. On top of that he's hideously disfigured and crippled, and in constant pain and he knows he has been the perfect tool for someone else...

sad

[Eagle Prince]

I felt sad for him too when I finished reading the novel.

[Dex1138]

Apologies for a long post, catchin up on the weekend

I find it very funny that Lucas never put his kids into any movie until Peter Jackson put his kids into LotR
Actually, Lucas beat him to it by 2 years. One of his daughters is a friend of Anakin's (the girl with braces ). You can see her when he first shows off his pod.

Why do the ships get those round "FTL" travel rings now
Those ships didn't have hypedrives, just the way they were made. Maybe the engine tech wasn't so far along they could put them in small ships yet> More than likey since they're fighters, I would bet they are normally deployed with a carrier, like TIEs. But there are quite a few rings in the "parking lot", eh?

and we assume then that Leia KNEW she was adopted?
An interesting point. It's never mentioned in the films that she was adopted. It was also never mentioned in the films that Vader got to be the way he is from lava. Yet, we've all held these as Truth for the past 27+ years.

at the end of Return of the Jedi, he finally kills the Emperor... and BAM he's back on the Light Side of the Force again?
It's not the fact that he did it, but the reason behind it: to save his son.

And on Aalya's death: I saw the movie in a regular theatre this weekend and she is most certainly dead. When I saw it the first time in digital, you see the clones shooting at her but the camera pans over that freaky flower and you don't see much else.
In the film version, you see the clones shooting her and she falls prone with a blaster burn on her.
There's also talk of Padme's line about the death of democracy being different. Some have heard "This is how democracy ends..to thunderous applause." Others have heard freedom in place of democracy.

[Oseleon]

Keep in mind that the old Republic Jedi were not balanced.
They feared the Dark Side so much that they kept EVERYTHING that could tempt them away. They were a shelterd order
No attachment, No Families. No Love other than Agape.  

Who is stronger?
One who is on the side of Light because he knows no other way?
Or one who overcomes temptation to be on the side of Light?

Luke had attachment, Luke had love, but Luke overcame the temptations that come with those attachments and stayed in the Light.  It's something even Yoda didnt comprehend
Luke: "And Sacrifice Han and Leia!?"
Yoda: "If you value what they fight for, Yes"

Luke would bring about a new BALANCED Jedi Order, one that did not shelter itself from life.  One that would face the temptations of the Darkside and overcome them.  
I hate the EU, BUT In the EU it is said that the New Jedi had families and individual love.  

The inbalance of the force was 2 sides, in absolute disharmony.

The Sith with no restraint
and
The Jedi with no exposure

Its the same theme as the Mystics and Skexies of the Dark Crystal, The Vorlons and the Shadows of Babylon 5.

Absolute Chaos vs Absolute Order.... Only by accepting both could there be balance.  

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I am so glad I'm not the only one who sees it that way. I bring that up with most of the people I talk to and they are all like, "I never thought of it that way!"

So many assume that "balance" means you INCLUDE both good and bad. That's opposition, not balance.

[Oseleon]

Melting Pot vs Salad Bowl...