Beowulf the Talky

[Fellfrosch]

The discussion has progressed far beyond my little comments, but I should explain myself anyway--I didn't say I wanted romance or a woman warrior, though it's interesting that you immediately assumed I did. There are plenty of other roles women can fill in society aside from lover and warrior princess--Beowulf has at least one, if not two (it's been a while since I read it) prophetesses, as well as a queen of some kind. They're not terribly active in the story but their presence lends a more complete, rounded feel to the story, and their words offer a counterpoint to the grunting and posturing of the men as they talk about their great deeds (though that point is arguable, since the story itself was presumably written by a man). When I said that 13th Warrior was "one-note," I meant exactly that--it's just a bunch of guys running around and killing things, and that's fine for a while, but I would have liked to see a fuller view of the world they lived in. This would have included more women.

[Skar]

Light Kevlar.  Hmmmph.  When I found out that the darn thing wouldn't stop an AK47 round, only pistol and shrapnel, I quit wearing it unless my "spider-sense" was tingling.  Worked pretty well.  I had it on every time I came under fire.  Once, I put it on, everyone in the convoy followed suit and about two minutes later we surprised some Taliban who were not quite into their ambush positions.

Speaking of psychology and training, I agree with the summation

In a one on one fight, if the man or woman were equally sized and with melee weapons, then the person with the most training will probably win.

If it's agreed that alot of "training" is really just part of growing up.  Tree-climbing, stick-swinging, brother punching, general physical confidence, mindset, etc...

I know lots of average "untrained" men and women and were we to pair them up to fight I think the men would all win.  

[Skar]

The jibe about romance was just a jibe.  

I'll admit that when you said there were not enough women characters I immediately thought of King Arthur, having recently seen it, which contains one really annoying and stupid token woman warrior character, which, of course, led to the whole discussion.

I didn't feel a lack in 13th warrior.  Thanks for answering my question by the way.  My response, aside from the jibe, was not meant to be a response to your answer.

However, I'd like to point out that 13th warrior had 2 prophetesses, a queen, and a maid, all with more than passing roles.  They weren't the main characters but neither were the women in Beowulf.

[Fellfrosch]

Well, like I said, it's been forever since I saw it, and I've only seen it once. The impression I took away (of steely men with their steely swords) may easily have been wrong.

[stacer]

It's an interesting question from a feminist perspective: how do you do a better job of representing women in a story like this, without it becoming completely unbelievable? And if you expand the roles of the priestesses or queens, it changes the nature of the story sometimes, from action to more of a drama, perhaps, because you wouldn't usually have the women out in the battles.

If you've ever read any of Tamora Pierce's Alanna books, that's a good example of a woman warrior done well--at the beginning of the story, she's 11 years old and wants to become a knight, and switches places with her twin brother, who wants to become a magician. They go off to their respective schools, and the first two books of four delve into Alanna's challenge to keep up in her training, because she's so much smaller than her classmates. She's always the brunt of the bully, who breaks her arm once and nearly kills her another time. Pierce eventually solves it not only with Alanna working waaaay overtime to become stronger and have better reflexes, but also in a  kind of Deus ex way, that because Alanna is smiled upon by the Goddess of the story, she is gifted with a magical sword (which actually doesn't live up to its promise, in my opinion, because Pierce is on a crusade to write about "women and girls who kick butt") and makes friends in odd places, who back her up in tight spots. Eventually, though, she becomes the woman warrior that has become what Skar now refers to as the stereotype.

I've talked about this before, how I think that this kind of weakens a true feminism (and by that I mean a feminism that promotes the quality and ability of women, not what some refer to as radical feminism). The feminism of the 70s and 80s often told women that to have power, they had to become men--a perfect example of which is the woman warrior that's become so prevalent in fantasy and historical storytelling. There's so much that can be emphasized about the strength of women in arenas other than physical strength, it baffles me why we have to insist upon women as warriors so often.

Yet--I do like to see a girl kick butt every now and then. I like it when it's done well and believably. I don't like it when it's overused, because sometimes it compromises the other roles in which women have great strength and talent.

I don't know if any of that makes sense. I say, if it's believable, go for it. I haven't seen King Arthur, so I don't know if I agree or not with Skar's opinion of it. In fact, I haven't seen the 13th Warrior, either. It's rather sad. Ever since I've been in grad school, my movie nights have gone down to practically nothing.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Both characters were represented in the movie though... and fairly well
The preistess is the old crone, who Beowulf asks about the symbol of the vendal. There is a queen, and she has a small part, in addition there is the norse woman who teaches Ibn Fatlan about how to fit in, in the culture.. Its hard to demonstrate a bigger womans role than that in the legend (and movie) of Beowulf because the people who do all the action are outsiders, and not part of the community, they dont travel with women, and they are all warriors. In fact their only purpose is to fight and defeat the vendel (grendel).

[Entsuropi]

Boo. I go out to roleplaying and everyone has a interesting discussion! Jerks.

Skar, you have mentioned a cultural problem. Namely that male soldiers would leap to the aid of female comrades, getting themselves killed (this is the official explanation for no women in frontline units in the British army). I would point out that the Scythians had entire portions of their army being women. Including a light cavalry unit that used axes and was named the 'head hunters'.  This, like slavery, is something that affects modern day people differently. To the romans, slavery was correct, it simply made sense. To us, its an abomination.

Though I will grant a couple points - firstly that protecting women is probably hard-coded in as part of the family raising behaviour patterns in humans, and that the cultures we are talking about - Romans, Celts, Vikings - probably had similar ethics on the issue to modern day soldiers.

Also, consider this: You were part of the US military, where a significant part of your time is spent training, being instructed on how to respond in combat situations, practicing with your weapons and so forth. I doubt the vikings spent nearly as much time. I am willing to bet that they did a few basic routines, maybe trained a bit on the longboats, but nothing close to modern military standards. Since their opponents most likely did the same, this meant that in combat the Vikings had the advantage of strength and endurance, having spent all that time hauling crap around on the longboats. Ergo, they won a lot. But if you have a 'warrior princess' who spends most of her time training, she could have a big advantage of training over her enemies. Someone who is smaller and weaker, but can swing her sword half again as fast and more accurately than you, is going to kick your ass. Practice makes perfect.

EUOL makes no sense with his 'African man beats European man' comment. That is simply the same as saying 'Europeans are smarter than Africans'. Say that, watch people fall over themselves flaming you. Though there is the fact that Africans tend to intimidate whites, especially in combat situations. And intimidated enemies are at a major disadvantage...

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

EUOL makes no sense with his 'African man beats European man' comment

Indeed I too would like a little supporting data for that one... it sounds ...
unsubstantiated...

[Skar]

I like your take on it, Stacer.  In order for women to be strong and have power, they don't have to become men.  My wife has told me several times that she's tired of stories about women trying to be like men, as, I suppose, am I.  

Now, I'd disagree that this Alanna character turns into the stereotype I've been talking about, (from your description anyway, I've never read the books).  Given reason and background for her becoming a warrior is what I want to see, as opposed to "well, she was there and she picked up a sword and now she's a match for any old male."

Working enough overtime to try and match the males in strength, who I presume were attempting to become stronger as well, would have caused some pretty startling changes in her physiology that would have helped her fit in with the men. Shrinking breasts, no more menstruation, etc... Did Pierce go into that?  As for the reflexes, practicing overtime to get better reflexes than the males in compensation for the fact that she's not as strong and probably never will be is totally believable.  Developing reflexes just takes practice.

And in the end I too like to see girls kick butt...believably.

[Skar]

Though there is the fact that Africans tend to intimidate whites, especially in combat situations. And intimidated enemies are at a major disadvantage...

I have read a book or two(literally) concerning the British army in Africa and while their winning consistently had a great deal to do with technological disparity I don't remember getting the impression that they were particularly intimidated by the Africans.  The reverse seems to be evident in described feelings (suspect for who would admit to being intimidated by a savage) but also in the outcome of all those battles.

The intimidation of whites by blacks nowadays, IMO can be chalked up to A:fear of somehow being racist on the part of the whites and B:suburban whitey encountering people who he thinks are probably criminals and likely to resort to violence.  Not at all the same thing happens when both parties are expecting to resort to violence, as in combat.

[stacer]

Now, I'd disagree that this Alanna character turns into the stereotype I've been talking about, (from your description anyway, I've never read the books).  Given reason and background for her becoming a warrior is what I want to see, as opposed to "well, she was there and she picked up a sword and now she's a match for any old male."

That's true. It really does build it up believeably.

Working enough overtime to try and match the males in strength, who I presume were attempting to become stronger as well, would have caused some pretty startling changes in her physiology that would have helped her fit in with the men. Shrinking breasts, no more menstruation, etc... Did Pierce go into that?

Well, she gets her period in the story, and breasts, and she ends up wrapping herself flat and trying to disguise it, but the thing is that she couldn't have developed too much, or it'd be plain obvious. A girl like me, for example, with curves, really just couldn't be taken for a boy. So she had some physiological advantages, in that she probably had delayed development. Still had to deal with womanly issues, but conveniently didn't have it as obviously as another girl might. And Pierce does always describe her as small, so the amount of physical work probably would keep her tiny.

[Spriggan]

I'll go with you on the taller shorter bit but...

Which Europeans are you talking about here?  The Vikings who still rule the world (see some other thread I remember)?  The Celts who stopped the Romans cold? The Germans who eventually conquered Rome and, in modern times nearly ruled the world twice?  

Upon what do you base your conclusion?

Well I know when it comes to running that statement is true.  People of African decent have a different calf muscle the adverage European.  There was an article in Science magaize that was about this last summer (I read it during one of my many waits at the mechanics becsaue of my Van).

[Skar]

I've heard of that as well but I don't think it follows for running, jumping sure, sprinting maybe, but running is cardiovascularly intensive, not leg muscle intensive.  I am, however, reminded of the habit the Zulus had of stealing marches on the British by routinely running, I say again, running, 50 miles a day.

Doesn't apply to EUOL's, all things being equal stand up fight, though.

[Fellfrosch]

I read the first of the Alanna books in fifth grade, and thought it was pretty good. I quickly forgot who it was that wrote them, however, and never found the rest to read them. Don't know if I will at this point, but it's interesting to hear about the series.

In my earlier post talking about the stereotyped roles of women, I almost wrote "lover and tomboy (a woman who acts like a man)" but didn't because I couldn't find a good way of saying it; leave it to me to ignore a cool topic of discussion just for the sake of phrasing. Thanks for bringing it back up, Stacer.

The dual roles of lover and tomboy are interesting in that they are the easiest ways for men to relate to women, so we tend to think of them in those terms and force them into those archetypes in our writing. Trinity in the Matrix is a great example of this: she has no feminine qualities, and could be easily replaced with a man in every scene where she doesn't kiss Neo. She's the "ideal" partner for a daydreaming adolescent male because she's hot, but when you're not making out with her she beats up bad guys instead of getting all girly.

The other traditional role of woman in literature is that of the oracle: once again, prevalent in both The Matrix and Beowulf. The oracle (or the witch, if she's evil; same difference) represents the opposite of the lover and the tomboy--she is the woman that man can't relate to. She's mysterious, she knows things and does things and thinks things that are entirely alien to men, and is essentially a figure of both fear and honor.

Name virtually any old story, or any modern action movie, and the women in it are likely to fall into one or more of these roles. This began to change, at least in Europe, with the advent of the fairy tale as a storytelling medium ruled largely by women--here we start to see women and girls in active roles that did not require them to please, become, or mystify men.

[EUOL]

I'll go with you on the taller shorter bit but...

Which Europeans are you talking about here?  The Vikings who still rule the world (see some other thread I remember)?  The Celts who stopped the Romans cold? The Germans who eventually conquered Rome and, in modern times nearly ruled the world twice?  

Upon what do you base your conclusion?

I was simply referring to the African race's increased amount of fast twitch muscle fiber, which tends to make them better athletes.  This may or may not actually make them better warriors, but it would probably give them an advantage if all other things but race were equal.

There are a lot of studies about it.  I did a search for "black" and "Fast Muscle Fiber" and got a ton of results.  Here's one:

http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p2.php