Author Topic: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)  (Read 5455 times)

maxonennis

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2011, 11:18:04 PM »
Speaking of consequences, does anyone really believe that three women sharing one man ever really works as well as RJ imagined? 

*Spoiler Alert*

I think Rand is supposed to in the end, anyway. If that happened they wouldn't all be living in the same house and whatnot. I suppose that was RJ's entire point with Rand. He's going to die, so . . . why not? What could three people do to him that he isn't already going to endure? (Note: I'm not saying I approve.)

Supposed to what?  Suffer consequences?
      

Typo. I meant to say "I think that Rand will die anyway in the end."
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mtbikemom

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2011, 01:27:35 AM »
Even so (situational ethics and our own preferences aside), Rand may be genetically Aiel, but he's not culturally Aiel at all.  And now he's all "good" and everything.  So, where does the potential for two girls on the side come in?  I can't see Brandon liking that eventuality, no matter what the notes and prophesies/viewings indicate.  Just my observation.  I just don't see Min stepping aside for Avhienda anymore.  We will all have to RAFO, though.  I admit I do have a strong bias toward Min.

andygal

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2011, 06:22:50 AM »
Brandon intends to write the ending the way RJ wanted it as much as possible. So Brandon's views on polyamorous relationships have nothing to do with anything.

And I like Min too, she's the least irritating of all the major female characters.

mtbikemom

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2011, 03:38:46 PM »
I was blessed to be chosen as a Storm Leader for one of the Gathering Storm signings (Half Moon Bay, CA) and overheard a tired Brandon saying (to all of us) that he did not necessarily "like" every eventual storyline outcome.  I had sort of forgotten that until just now, but the thought still intrigues me.  Harriet was not present at the time.  I now also wonder if some inconsistencies like those mentioned lately on this thread are what may bother Mr. Sanderson, rather than any personal moral objections.  I don't think we'll get any "official" comments on this subject, but forums are for uncomfortable questions and such, are they not? 

After meeting and enjoying Harriet immensely, I believe that Min is based on a young Harriet more than any other WoT woman.  They are both delightful characters.  Brandon is as nice as you've probably heard, too, and very candid in person.  I think that's probably obvious from his friendly twitter/blog/email accessibility.


Lord Terrisman

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2011, 08:32:33 PM »
Yeah.  I personally do not agree with the whole polygamous aspect to Rand.  But I feel the same way you guys do if Mr. Sanderson is writing the ending of RJ's series then it should be how RJ planned it and personal preferences should not come into effect.  I'm also a Min fan, I used to like Aviendha, but then she became irritating like Elayne.

happyman

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2011, 09:26:38 PM »
Speaking of consequences, does anyone really believe that three women sharing one man ever really works as well as RJ imagined? 

*Spoiler Alert*

I think Rand is supposed to in the end, anyway. If that happened they wouldn't all be living in the same house and whatnot. I suppose that was RJ's entire point with Rand. He's going to die, so . . . why not? What could three people do to him that he isn't already going to endure? (Note: I'm not saying I approve.)

Supposed to what?  Suffer consequences?

It's just that the women of WoT, especially those with power, are not generally any less jealous, petty, ambitious or competitive than real women except in this one case.  Inconsistent much?  I think so. Besides, none of Rand's internal dialogue mentions this reasoning.  At least none that I can remember.  He just seems to be reacting to opportunities of the moment.  Being controlled by women is a consistent theme in Randland, but not the lack of consequence.

Come to think of it, since he's become Min-ogamous, there has been no sharing of him at all.  Except for getting Elayne pregnant, which was a hilarious scene.  That's where there should have been more friction, though.       

Dunno.  The situation described is possible, but rare.  You are also taking it way to far, as well.  All three have story arcs in which they struggle with the idea before accepting it.  Remember what Avienda suggested she and Elayne do to Min?  Neither to I; RJ censored it, just describing Elayne's shock at the suggestions.  And Rand does have some idea how odd the situation is, but because his main personal motivation was to get out of all their lives and never see any of them again, he never spent much time worrying about how it would work out, because he wasn't trying to make it work.

Also, it's not just Rand, people.  The Aiel have polygamy, openly and with the apparently eager participation of the wives.  That's odder than Rand's situation by a long shot.
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mtbikemom

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2011, 09:51:35 PM »
Thanks, Happy, I had forgotten about that, as usual.  But Rand's girls still act out-of-character afterward, I think.  Only Avhienda should be so groovy about this.

Taking things too far is kind of a tradition on fantasy forums, is it not?

I was thinking a bit more about the subject of hazing today, and since I had posted something about Mr. Rigney's military background being a possible explanation, I feel I must add a bit more.   I'm not sure anymore if the Aiel Wise One training is really hazing, or even if the Aes Sedai initiation rituals are truly cruel.  Rather, they remind me more of American Indian traditions, and here's why:  they are not meant purely for the sake of cruelty or degradation.  Nor are they used to break the spirit, but to actually show the Wise One that she needs to question authority to move on, in the case of Avhienda's testing.  And wasn't that a surprise!  They are meant as a purposeful trial, not humiliation for the sake of shared suffering, which is what hazing seems to be, along with pure sadism at times.  So, because there is no real cruelty involved without a purpose, there should be no emotional/psychological consequences on either side.  Are there any other hazing examples from the book I am forgetting?   

Morsker

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2011, 12:20:57 AM »
As someone who grew up in foster care and have been around a number of different kids who have been abused, I’ve come to the conclusion that those that are traumatized are typically the kids who were passive to begin with. Also, I would recommend you read On Killing by Lt. David Grossman. He has a whole section on the psychology of both the torturer and the one being tortured. More often than not it is the torturer who suffers from long term trauma. Plus, I think it should be added that most of the time in tWoT the hazing isn't done with malicious intent.

I'll give a partial retraction; Rand's experience in the box results in real trauma. In general, I'm not objecting to views about the reality of abuse; I disagree with the author, but I never expect to agree with all an author's opinions. What's extremist in WoT isn't some opinion, but bias in presentation. There is just so much hazing and abuse, and so much glory and strengthening of people thereby. It deserves notoriety, as an idiosyncracy in WoT that it makes such a theme of this. Old Aggie noticed this, as a new reader. I wonder how many other readers notice it, and how much the observation is lost, due to "gender" consuming more bandwidth.

Loud_G

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2011, 08:03:28 PM »

I'll be honest, I've read the series many times , and I never once even considered there to be any hazing in the books at all. Even now I can't think of a single scene of true hazing. There are some nasty things that happen to people and there are some difficult tests, but no actual hazing that I can recall.
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happyman

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2011, 03:21:59 PM »

I'll be honest, I've read the series many times , and I never once even considered there to be any hazing in the books at all. Even now I can't think of a single scene of true hazing. There are some nasty things that happen to people and there are some difficult tests, but no actual hazing that I can recall.

Well, Rand's treatment at the hands of the Aes Sedai was true abuse.  And treated by the books as such, with no excuses made for the abusers.
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cromptj

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Re: Anyone else have trouble choking down middle WOT books? (spoilers)
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2011, 10:38:00 AM »
I think the problem people have is after reading the first 5/6 books, which have quite a lot going on in a moderately sized cast, the series got overloaded with characters. It really shows in book 10 of which my only memory is closing the book two thirds of the way through and thinking there's 10 hours of my life I'm never getting back. Only around book 11 does some of the cast start getting offloaded which left much more room for something meaningful to happen in the last three books.

Also some of the character do fall into cycles of whining to themselves and constantly agonising over things that wouldn't matter if they bothered to get off their ass and make a decision.