Author Topic: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*  (Read 4764 times)

Jason R. Peters

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2011, 12:20:16 AM »
1.When he is knocked in the air his shardplate seems to correct itself so he lands right side up
2. Adolin notes that he moves faster in shardplate than should be possible, making other shardbearers look like children by comparison
3. When he catches the greatshell claw, Adolin notices that his shardplate "almost glows"

I may just be dense, but I thought this was all just good description for the power and majesty of shardplates/blades, not an indication of Dalinar's personal innate ability.

For instance, it becomes clear pretty early that Kaladin has some magic "luck"...I'll grant that Dalinar's arc could simply be much longer, but I would expect hints to be more obvious than this.

None of this is to say that Dalinar won't become a radiant, I just didn't think this points to it.

happyman

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 02:26:37 PM »
1.When he is knocked in the air his shardplate seems to correct itself so he lands right side up
2. Adolin notes that he moves faster in shardplate than should be possible, making other shardbearers look like children by comparison
3. When he catches the greatshell claw, Adolin notices that his shardplate "almost glows"

I may just be dense, but I thought this was all just good description for the power and majesty of shardplates/blades, not an indication of Dalinar's personal innate ability.

For instance, it becomes clear pretty early that Kaladin has some magic "luck"...I'll grant that Dalinar's arc could simply be much longer, but I would expect hints to be more obvious than this.

None of this is to say that Dalinar won't become a radiant, I just didn't think this points to it.

The trouble with the description just being "the power and majesty of shardplates/blades" is that they are given from Adolin's and Dalinar's points of view.  Both of them have extensive experience with both plate and blade, and they have a pretty good idea what the rules are supposed to be.  They appreciate the power, but it's almost mundane to them; it's part of their life.  Even with their knowledge of how things are supposed to be, Dalinar apparently exceeds the previous limits in many subtle ways and has experiences he's never had before, not even in plate.

Given that the Radiants were apparently able to use plate and blade more effectively than modern Shardbearers, and had more powers, this is exactly what we would expect from a proto-radiant.

In addition, we haven't really seen Dalinar's arc start in earnest yet.  Oh, we've seen some of it, but this book was focused on Kaladin and his powers.  There's another nine books in the series, after all.  This kind of foreshadowing is perfectly appropriate for this point in the longer story.

It's not proof that Dalinar is a radiant, but I consider the possibility to be fairly likely given what little we have seen.
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Jason R. Peters

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2011, 02:07:52 AM »
1.When he is knocked in the air his shardplate seems to correct itself so he lands right side up
2. Adolin notes that he moves faster in shardplate than should be possible, making other shardbearers look like children by comparison
3. When he catches the greatshell claw, Adolin notices that his shardplate "almost glows"

I may just be dense, but I thought this was all just good description for the power and majesty of shardplates/blades, not an indication of Dalinar's personal innate ability.

For instance, it becomes clear pretty early that Kaladin has some magic "luck"...I'll grant that Dalinar's arc could simply be much longer, but I would expect hints to be more obvious than this.

None of this is to say that Dalinar won't become a radiant, I just didn't think this points to it.

The trouble with the description just being "the power and majesty of shardplates/blades" is that they are given from Adolin's and Dalinar's points of view.  Both of them have extensive experience with both plate and blade, and they have a pretty good idea what the rules are supposed to be.  They appreciate the power, but it's almost mundane to them; it's part of their life. 

I don't disagree. I'm only going to add that even if something is mundane to a character, it's part of the author's job to make it seem exciting to the reader. The mage who casts spells daily still seems full of majesty and awe the first time the reader sees him do it. The sci-fi soldier is not impressed by his combat armor and tactical visor, but the narrator nonetheless gives an impressive play-by-play of their capabilities.

Quote
In addition, we haven't really seen Dalinar's arc start in earnest yet.  Oh, we've seen some of it, but this book was focused on Kaladin and his powers.  There's another nine books in the series, after all.  This kind of foreshadowing is perfectly appropriate for this point in the longer story.

It's not proof that Dalinar is a radiant, but I consider the possibility to be fairly likely given what little we have seen.

Nothing to disagree with here. I just don't find these descriptions to be evidence, reason being I actually think Sanderson would foreshadow more obviously than these subtle theories of fans. All through Mistborn, there were puzzles to solve, but you knew what the puzzles were. Often, you even knew which pieces were missing. This is one reason I like Sanderson's work so much, his reveals don't seem like "gotcha"s. They just seem like, "Why didn't I KNOW that?"

This seems awfully subtle for that style of writing.

Dalinar may well be a Radiant regardless whether this text was intended to imply it.

happyman

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 04:13:40 PM »
1.When he is knocked in the air his shardplate seems to correct itself so he lands right side up
2. Adolin notes that he moves faster in shardplate than should be possible, making other shardbearers look like children by comparison
3. When he catches the greatshell claw, Adolin notices that his shardplate "almost glows"

I may just be dense, but I thought this was all just good description for the power and majesty of shardplates/blades, not an indication of Dalinar's personal innate ability.

For instance, it becomes clear pretty early that Kaladin has some magic "luck"...I'll grant that Dalinar's arc could simply be much longer, but I would expect hints to be more obvious than this.

None of this is to say that Dalinar won't become a radiant, I just didn't think this points to it.

The trouble with the description just being "the power and majesty of shardplates/blades" is that they are given from Adolin's and Dalinar's points of view.  Both of them have extensive experience with both plate and blade, and they have a pretty good idea what the rules are supposed to be.  They appreciate the power, but it's almost mundane to them; it's part of their life. 

I don't disagree. I'm only going to add that even if something is mundane to a character, it's part of the author's job to make it seem exciting to the reader. The mage who casts spells daily still seems full of majesty and awe the first time the reader sees him do it. The sci-fi soldier is not impressed by his combat armor and tactical visor, but the narrator nonetheless gives an impressive play-by-play of their capabilities.

Quote
In addition, we haven't really seen Dalinar's arc start in earnest yet.  Oh, we've seen some of it, but this book was focused on Kaladin and his powers.  There's another nine books in the series, after all.  This kind of foreshadowing is perfectly appropriate for this point in the longer story.

It's not proof that Dalinar is a radiant, but I consider the possibility to be fairly likely given what little we have seen.

Nothing to disagree with here. I just don't find these descriptions to be evidence, reason being I actually think Sanderson would foreshadow more obviously than these subtle theories of fans. All through Mistborn, there were puzzles to solve, but you knew what the puzzles were. Often, you even knew which pieces were missing. This is one reason I like Sanderson's work so much, his reveals don't seem like "gotcha"s. They just seem like, "Why didn't I KNOW that?"

This seems awfully subtle for that style of writing.

Dalinar may well be a Radiant regardless whether this text was intended to imply it.

You clearly weren't on this forum when we were discussing Hemalurgy.  We had successfully connected Hemalurgy to metal piercings, and even knew that Vin's earring and her sisters death were almost certainly part of Hemalurgy, just from the hints in the first two books.  The reactions of the mists to Hemalurgy were also noted.  All from hints as subtle as what we are poking at here. (Trust me; hindsight bias makes it look much more obvious after the fact.  I was frankly quite impressed with what we had worked out from what little we had.  I had even argued for Sazed as the HoA before HoA came out, and my evidence was all valid in retrospect.).  The hints were just enough to give us a flavor of what was going on, but not big enough to really tell us what was going on, although it all made sense in hindsight.

So no, I believe that these are exactly the kind of hints Brandon would drop, especially in a long storyline.  He's done it before.  He's really a fairly subtle writer when it comes to long-term planning.  He's also very detail-oriented, which means little things matter.
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Jason R. Peters

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2011, 04:39:51 PM »
No, I wasn't on this forum then. I would be pretty impressed to see such predictions pan out as described. But I would also challenge how many other theories were proposed at the time? Sure, one or six start to emerge as more plausible as more people clamor to refine it.

An educated reader can make almost any theory sound plausible, even if it was not the athor's intent. Ever read the essay which demonstrates that Fight Club was about Calvin and Hobbes? Or any of the more plausible theories from the WMG (Wild Mass Guess) section of tvtropes?

Everyone invovled will remember the correct theory with vigor once it has been proven, regardless how many erroneous theories were proposed alongside. Or how many erroneous details were accidentally attached to the correct theory, though they were part of a different puzzle.

Dalinar-as-Radiant may well prove to be true (likely), this text may even point to it (I have my doubts). I'm just reserving judgment because the passage quoted doesn't prove anything conclusively to me-as-reader without something more substantial.

Ari54

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2011, 07:51:07 PM »
Of the ones that weren't immediately slammed down as being largely inconsistent with the books, I'd say somewhere in the neighbourhood of a third of the predictions I read were largely correct. Hemalurgy was one of the best predictions, but there were plenty of discussions about things like the nature of the mist spirits, what drove Zane out of his mind, and so on.

happyman

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2011, 08:12:26 PM »
No, I wasn't on this forum then. I would be pretty impressed to see such predictions pan out as described. But I would also challenge how many other theories were proposed at the time? Sure, one or six start to emerge as more plausible as more people clamor to refine it.

An educated reader can make almost any theory sound plausible, even if it was not the athor's intent. Ever read the essay which demonstrates that Fight Club was about Calvin and Hobbes? Or any of the more plausible theories from the WMG (Wild Mass Guess) section of tvtropes?

Everyone invovled will remember the correct theory with vigor once it has been proven, regardless how many erroneous theories were proposed alongside. Or how many erroneous details were accidentally attached to the correct theory, though they were part of a different puzzle.

Dalinar-as-Radiant may well prove to be true (likely), this text may even point to it (I have my doubts). I'm just reserving judgment because the passage quoted doesn't prove anything conclusively to me-as-reader without something more substantial.

I'm still not remotely certain why you think the evidence is bad or weak.  Two knowledgeable characters, over the course of a few very crowded minutes, notice in passing that Dalinar is doing things that shouldn't be possible, even in the magic system they are already familiar with.  It can't be the grandeur of Shards, like you've been trying to claim, for the very simple reason that the viewpoint characters are all familiar with the normal behavior of shards, and it isn't anything they have seen before.  (Most observers, even in-world, would probably not have noticed anything out of the ordinary.)  They don't remark on them afterwards, because the minutes were so crowded, and it's easy to write things like that off as being due to a heated imagination.  They don't expect anything unusual to happen, so they write it off.

We, on the other hand, are readers.  We know, from other characters' viewpoints, that the magic is coming back.  Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, etc., have begun manifesting things that are the stuff of legend.  We also know that the Knights Radiant had more powers than "modern" shardbearers manifest, and we even know some of the manifestations, such as the glowing armor, manipulation of forces, and so on.  In fact, we even know that one of the orders is called Stonesinew, which strongly suggests increased stamina, speed, and so on, very much like Thugs from mistborn.  In addition, we have the further meta-knowledge that the books are about interesting characters.  Combine all those with the fact that, for a very short time, Dalinar exhibited unusual strength, speed, stamina, control over his trajectory when he shouldn't have had it, and even possibly began to glow during this unusual burst of strength (although the viewpoint character writes that off as imagination), it seems extremely likely that he is manifesting the powers of one of the orders of Knights Radiant.  Lastly, we have the fact that magic on Roshar is related to character traits, and that Dalinar has been improving his character enormously from reading Way of Kings, making him more likely than the average Schmoe to be a Radiant, and I have a hard time doubting this theory.
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ulysses sword

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2011, 03:49:08 AM »
I'm going to play devil's advocate here: 

1.When he is knocked in the air his shardplate seems to correct itself so he lands right side up
This is still the first time Shardplate is described in use.  Because of that, I took it to be a general description of the plate, rather than an exceptional event.

2. Adolin notes that he moves faster in shardplate than should be possible, making other shardbearers look like children by comparison
He is described as having been very accomplished in Shardplate even before he started to embody these ideals.  Also, the fact that it was described as"speed and grace" rather than just "speed" or "moved faster" could mean that he is not exceeding the normal physical limits of Shardplate, only using it to its full potential.

3. When he catches the greatshell claw, Adolin notices that his shardplate "almost glows"
This one's pretty solid, but "almost seemed to glow" is hedging pretty hard.  The best alternate explanations I could come up with were: Sunlight reflecting off of him while within the shadow of the claw makes him brighter, cracks leaking Stormlight, or Adolin projecting what he thinks he should see.
EDIT: once could have been a coincidence, but his plate "almost seemed to glow" at the end of ch.62, when he saved Kaladin from the Parshendi archers.  #3 is pretty solid evidence.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 06:22:30 AM by ulysses sword »

Jason R. Peters

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2011, 04:45:06 PM »
I can buy #3 if it is mentioned twice with nearly identical terminology. I agree with Ulysses Sword about quotes 1 & 2.

MissGnomer

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2011, 11:55:23 PM »
Dalinar was a pretty big POV character in WoK, and we still have a lot of character development set up for us to see. I think he is being set up to be someone great. His honor, his strength, his visions, and now his new power over the war efforts...it's going to be really interesting to see what happens next. I am looking forward to the showdown between Kaladin and Szeth over Dalinar's life (it just HAS to happen)!

I think Dalinar will become a Radiant because of the way he "unleashes the Blackthorne," so to speak. It seems to me the characters that will become Radiants all have something very special that they can do; something that seems like it might just be extreme natural talent or ability, but is actually more than even they understand. Shallan's ability to take a Memory (always with a capital letter) is an example of this, IMHO. Dalinar's fighting ablility can certainly be explained by talent and training, but when the Blackthorne appears, I think we are seeing something almost supernatural.

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2011, 04:40:22 AM »
No, I wasn't on this forum then. I would be pretty impressed to see such predictions pan out as described. But I would also challenge how many other theories were proposed at the time? Sure, one or six start to emerge as more plausible as more people clamor to refine it.

An educated reader can make almost any theory sound plausible, even if it was not the athor's intent. Ever read the essay which demonstrates that Fight Club was about Calvin and Hobbes? Or any of the more plausible theories from the WMG (Wild Mass Guess) section of tvtropes?

Everyone invovled will remember the correct theory with vigor once it has been proven, regardless how many erroneous theories were proposed alongside. Or how many erroneous details were accidentally attached to the correct theory, though they were part of a different puzzle.

If you want an example of the evidence of guessing, you should look at the link below. To give a reference point, it is made just a little bit before the release of HoA. They have 3 or 4 preview chapters (like we're getting with Alloy of Law). And the words "shard" and "Hoid" and "cosmere" has yet to be uttered...

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/439-my-idiotic-theories-a-retrospective/

(Although this is for the last book in a trilogy. It's got a lot more foreshadowing going for it)

EDIT- I agree with the Radiant-sayers. I think something is going on with Dalinar. With the visions, the enhanced use of shardplate, and the super enhanced strength, I think he is most certainly on the path to becoming a Radiant. In fact, his enhanced use of shardplate when he is protecting reminds me a lot of Kaladin's more effective use of Stormlight after he says the Words of the Radiant Knights.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 04:45:04 AM by zas678 »
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happyman

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2011, 04:12:43 PM »
There's Wild Mass Guessing, and then there's theorizing.  They are two very different things.  Theorizing generally uses quotes from the actual books, along with standard logic and Occam's razor, to make some stabs at what is likely, usually with estimates as to just how likely each idea is.  Wild Mass Guessing tends to use such thrilling statements as "If you can't prove it false, it's likely" or some other such rubbish, or attempts to use symbolism (often symbolism that the author never intended) to make their case.

The Harry Potter fandom had some pretty amateur people making guesses.  Not their fault, I suppose, but they didn't impress me most of the time.  I've also seen some literary criticism, and I couldn't agree more about how full of crap many of those folks are.  Making a bawdy, sexist comedy into a pro-feminist creed ("Taming of the Shrew" for those who don't get the reference) is par for the course for those folks.

On the other hand, I have a hard time comparing most of what we do on these boards with that kind of thinking.  Chaos' post wasn't correct on every point, but he was making an honest attempt to ferret out the best theories based on evidence.

In fact, one of these days, I'll finally get my copy of Way of Kings and actually include the quotes, with the evidence bolded, just to point out what we're actually using to make this case.  It's actually quite solid.
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imaninja347

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2011, 03:22:02 AM »
I dont know if anyone else has noticed this one part but no one else has mentioned it..
On page 381 Dalinar hears a voice in his head and hears the words "Life before death". (there are a couple other things said i believe but I'm not sure about what they were). This could be another piece of evidence that Dalinar could become a Radiant. Just throwing it out there.

kari-no-sugata

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2011, 04:57:32 AM »
Sometimes there are "reveals" which are a surprise to the character, but not to the reader. Or putting it another way - that the significant part isn't the confirmation or information itself but either the events leading up to the reveal or how the character deals with the revelation (or both). I think  Dalinar becoming a Radiant (or something more) would be much more a surprise to him than readers.

Certainly Dalinar is special in some way - after all, he's been reliably getting visions/messages from the Almighty for some time now. Of course, he may not be unique in this - others may be getting them now, or got them in the past. Alternatively, maybe the 'storms' chose him in a similar way to how the 'mists' chose Vin (incidentally, it's interesting to note how similar the 'drawing on the mists' scenes are like breathing in Stormlight).

Also, think of it this way: Dalinar is told that "The Knights Radiant must stand again". If Dalinar makes this happen, that would almost make him their leader by default. This would obviously be easier if he is a Knight himself.

One final note for now - we are told in one of Teft's viewpoints (page 928) that "Stormlight did not grant skill. It could not make a man into something he was not. It enhanced, it strengthened, it invigorated. It perfected". This certainly applies to Kaladin's ability with a spear. I think we should also apply this to Shallan's ability with drawing and also her visual memory. Perhaps Dalinar started down this road as a youth with his fighting ability and mastery of Shardplate, but eventually hit a wall (unknowingly) and it's only recent events that are allowing him to break that wall. It would be somewhat ironic that after giving up his Shardplate he learns to truly master it like the Radiants of old.

zas678

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Re: Dalinar as a possible radiant? *Spoilers*
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2011, 08:01:05 AM »
Quote
Certainly Dalinar is special in some way - after all, he's been reliably getting visions/messages from the Almighty for some time now. Of course, he may not be unique in this - others may be getting them now, or got them in the past.

There is other getting them as well- or at least one other:

Chapter 66-
“That chanting, that singing, those rasping voices.”
Kaktach 1173, 16 seconds pre-death. A middle-aged potter. Reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the last two years.

“It’s a fun tradition.”
“So was witch-burning,” Melody said.  “Unless you were the witch.”