Author Topic: [Stormlight Archive] Remaking the Heralds *spoilers*  (Read 2627 times)

Tasslehoof

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Re: [Stormlight Archive] Remaking the Heralds *spoilers*
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2011, 11:33:08 PM »
Well, my pet theory at the moment is that the Heralds made a contract with Odium in order to protect the people of Roshar from his power. Maybe they gained power out of it, maybe they imposed limits and rules on his attacks (the Desolations) in exchange for possession of their souls, maybe it was something we can't even guess yet. And of course until we know more about Odium and what he wants we just can't even really come close to knowing. :)

Yeah, I like this.  Its a much more refined idea than mine.  The Heralds make a deal with Odium, but it is more to protect Roshar by sacrificing themselves.  At some point, most of the Heralds get tired of it, but one remains as the vigilant protector of Roshar, suffering by himself.  Very interesting idea.
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ulysses sword

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Re: [Stormlight Archive] Remaking the Heralds *spoilers*
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2011, 03:40:05 AM »
I always imagined the Cycle of  Desolations as (at least partially) a positive force, as it gave all of humanity a common enemy to fight against, binding them closer to one another, and giving people a force to shape them into honourable fighters, as any group made up of traitors and cowards would fall to the forces of the Desolation.  This is basically an argument for Social Darwinism, and would lead to a society that is tightly bound together by both a long tradition and necessity.  This is supported by the back of the book, ("...Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only make for a better grade of sword.  But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away.") as well as the fact that the Desolations stopped with the breaking of the Oathpact.  If Odium had wanted to, he (it?) could have instead unleashed his power and brought a final battle to destroy mankind, as Honor no longer had champions in the Heralds. 

I can't see the Heralds gaining their powers from a deal with Odium, because then they would be fundamentally different from surgebinding (which they might be).  I still think that it was a deal between Honor and Odium, granting the Heralds the powers of Honor, in exchange for the tortures of Odium.

dhalagirl

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Re: [Stormlight Archive] Remaking the Heralds *spoilers*
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2011, 05:06:39 AM »
I really like CabbyHat and ulysses sword's theories.  I actually can't decide which I like better but they both leave me wondering about a couple things.  In CabbyHat's theory I'm wondering why the Heralds would make the Oathpact knowing that a thousand years of torture await them.  In ulysses sword's theory I'm wondering what other angle Odium has worked into the deal.  I mean, torturing Heralds and sending out Desolations is fun for him/her/it, but it doesn't feel like enough incentive.

ulysses sword

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Re: [Stormlight Archive] Remaking the Heralds *spoilers*
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2011, 05:18:51 AM »
In ulysses sword's theory I'm wondering what other angle Odium has worked into the deal.  I mean, torturing Heralds and sending out Desolations is fun for him/her/it, but it doesn't feel like enough incentive.

That's a weakness that I haven't been able to resolve very well.  The best I could come up with is that without the Oathpact, Honor and Odium would have had a direct god on god fight, like Vin vs. Ruin, and both would inevitably be destroyed.  This is because Honor would have an inescapable duty to protect the citizens of Roshar, because most religions trade obedience (from a person) for protection (from a god).  This is somewhat reliant on the idea that there was a time before the Desolations where people worshipped Honor in this way, and Odium had not yet come.

CabbyHat

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Re: [Stormlight Archive] Remaking the Heralds *spoilers*
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2011, 09:30:48 AM »
I really like CabbyHat and ulysses sword's theories.  I actually can't decide which I like better but they both leave me wondering about a couple things.  In CabbyHat's theory I'm wondering why the Heralds would make the Oathpact knowing that a thousand years of torture await them.  In ulysses sword's theory I'm wondering what other angle Odium has worked into the deal.  I mean, torturing Heralds and sending out Desolations is fun for him/her/it, but it doesn't feel like enough incentive.

Well, in most fiction where deals with the devil feature into the story, the characters don't seem to feel that eternal torture is an unfair trade. The human mind seems to have trouble grasping what exactly an eternity means, or even a thousand years.
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Argent

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Re: [Stormlight Archive] Remaking the Heralds *spoilers*
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2011, 09:07:10 AM »
Preservation-infused Vin and Ruin killed each other off because their Shards' essences were opposite. Honor and Odium could have a showdown, I think.
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Tortellini

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Re: [Stormlight Archive] Remaking the Heralds *spoilers*
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2011, 12:17:57 PM »
Preservation-infused Vin and Ruin killed each other off because their Shards' essences were opposite. Honor and Odium could have a showdown, I think.

In fact, we know that Odium killed of Aona and Skai (in the world of Elantris) and that was apparently no problem, so they can fight. In fact, Odium already killed Honor. The "Shade of Honor" says so himself. So there. No showdown needed. Odium killed Honor. And lived.

As for the deal with Odium theory - why should the Heralds fight in the desolations if they had a deal with Odium? Why should there be desolations if Odium has a deal? What more would he want - destroying Roshar? If so, why deal with the Heralds? Makes no sense to me.

ulysses sword

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Re: [Stormlight Archive] Remaking the Heralds *spoilers*
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2011, 12:03:26 AM »
In fact, we know that Odium killed of Aona and Skai (in the world of Elantris) and that was apparently no problem, so they can fight. In fact, Odium already killed Honor. The "Shade of Honor" says so himself. So there. No showdown needed. Odium killed Honor. And lived.

I disagree, but the facts may support you, as I couldn't find the quotes I was looking for.  IIRC, it said something like Odium went there, and now they are destroyed without mentioning how that came to be.  I didn't think that they were "killed" from fighting immediately after Odium appeared, but rather that they were sapped of power first when all of their efforts were turned against themselves by the forces of Odium.  This could be done by using things that other gods are powering (eg. their magic, intended to preserve, ruin, communicate, endow, etc...) to fuel his own ends (spreading hate).  This is mostly based off of the theory "The Principle Of Intent" on 17th shard.  If they were far enough out of balance, then Odium could then fight and destroy the other shard.

The same thing could have happened on Roshar, with Odium using oaths powered by Honor to spread hate, thereby sapping Honor's power for himself. 

Also, I found some pretty glaring errors in my list of who would be the new Heralds.  Szeth was confirmed to be a windrunner (same as Kaladin), and Talenel is Topaz (Bone/Stone/Dependable/Resourceful), not Ruby.  I now need a new man for Ruby (Soul/Fire/Brave/Obedient).  It could be Adolin, but it isn't a very strong connection.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 12:05:23 AM by ulysses sword »