Author Topic: Fallen Fantasist  (Read 3255 times)

daranthered

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Fallen Fantasist
« on: February 21, 2011, 08:36:06 PM »
There's been a debate going on around the web lately about fantasy, specifically the tendency toward less morally elevated characters and stories..  I thought I'd post some of the articles here and get some reactions.

It started with an article, "The Bankrupt Nihilism of Our Fallen Fantasist," by Leo Grin talks about the increase in nihilistic and gritty fantasy as opposed to the more traditional Sword and Sorcery of Robert E. Howard, and High Fantasy by Tolkien.  The article uses the works Joe Abercrombie as as its main example of this trend

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/lgrin/2011/02/12/the-bankrupt-nihilism-of-our-fallen-fantasists/

Abercrombie replied, rather glibly I thought, on his blog.

http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2011/02/15/bankrupt-nihilism/

The Black Gate ran an interesting rebuttal to several remarks Ambercrombie made.

http://www.blackgate.com/2011/02/20/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-fantasy-novel/

I don't know if this is one of those things which is a lot of sound and fury, but I find the discussion intriguing.  As someone who enjoys the more traditional moral heroes (like Dresden) and more traditional stories where people are basically decent, and are distinct from the bad guys, I don't much like the more nihilistic fiction trend.  I have for a long time known that I had to avoid works that were more "real," or "gritty."  I'm not saying that there's no place for works like that, but they're not to my taste.

Frankly, I find the idea that works like Abercrombie now dominate fantasy (an idea expressed in the first article, the one that started it all) is absurd.  The more traditional fantasies are still the ones that sell.  There hundreds who want to be the next Jordan, or Sanderson or Butcher.  I don't know many people who want to be the next Abercrombie.  There might be a few who want to be the next George R.R. Martin, and that's a scary thought.  But I think that the former authors are popula,r and inspire emulators, not because they sell so well, but because there is a joy in reading that kind of fiction, and a joy in writing in that vein.

I've put this up a couple of places I know fantasy readers hang out.  I'm hoping to get an idea of what writers and readers alike think about the rends in fantasy today.
Anyway, that's my opinion.  What's yours?
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maxonennis

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2011, 11:22:48 PM »
First off, the article is bad. The author obviously is living in the past and wants nothing but tLOR rewrites to read (look closely at what he writes and you can see this for yourself), regardless of character. Second, The First Law series is amazingly good, and you know what you're in for in the first pargraph. I have no pity for anyone who continues to read beyond that and then complains. Third, the series isn't half as bad as Mr. Grin puts it. Fourth, the writer doesn't know the genre. Fifth, Black Gate is a third rate literary mag that targets high schoolers. Sixth, there are still a hundred times as many generic, happy-go-lucky fantasy novels as there are any other kind.

The core of the problem with that article is that Mr. Grin doesn't actually like fantasy at all to begin with and is using Abercrombie as a strawman to blast the genre as a whole.

Anyway, about this 'darker fantasy' as a whole. I think that there is a place for it, just as there is a place for the happy-go-lucky, but the vast majority of the fantasy published today is somewhere in the middle, the way I believe it is supposed to be. In every genre there books that toe the line of no return, and I think that that is a good thing. I believe that part of the importance of fiction is being able to experience things that you would never actually do, for good or bad. But then again, as one who writes fiction I have an overinflated sense of value for fiction.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 11:25:51 PM by maxonennis »
"Don't argue with ignorance. And when you argue with me, that's all you get!" Mike

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Bookstore Guy

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 12:37:37 AM »
Not to mention the author of the original article talks about all of these authors--bashing them endlessly--and then says, "Oh yeah, haven't read this stuff."  If he read Abercrombie's THE HEROES, he would know that the title is meant for irony, is a direct product of philosophical discussions in the novel, and IS THE LOCATION THAT IS FOUGHT OVER FOR THE ENTIRE NOVEL.  It's one of my rules to reviewing: you have ZERO right to review something if you haven't read it.  A quick test:  has the writer of the article read THE HEROES?  No.  It kind of invalidates his comments on it.

I also personally loved his little part on Steven Erikson which shows his complete ignorance.  Again, he finds 1 bad review of the novel which he himself didn't read to help prove his point.  Seriously?  That's like me grabbing a random book at the store and writing a review based only on a cover-quote.

His claim that all the modern fantasy is nihilistic in nature is completely false, and saying that it applies to the works of Abercrombie and Erikson is absurd--again, it shows that he has read very little of anything by these authors (no matter his claims).  There is actually very little in fantasy that is nihilistic.  There is an astounding amount of hope, religion, righteousness in modern dark fantasy.  It's what makes it good, in my opinion.

But the article writer MUST be right, and everyone else WRONG because he invokes the name of Tolkien.  And EVERYONE knows that Tolkien was perfect, flawless, and a GOD.  Nope, he never once got his ideas from anywhere else.  Nope, before Tolkien, fantasy in another form never existed.

As usual in these laughable "essays" the writer points at an extremely few examples in the genre to make his point while ignoring the rest.  And even then, he gets most of it wrong because he couldn't bother to read the full series, or take off his elf-colored glasses.  He seems to be saying that all modern sword and sorcery is garbage, not game-changing, pitiful, and a diminished facsimile of "classic" work.  I somehow doubt that all these so-called classics were immediately loved and accepted as the best thing since sliced bread.
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Sigyn

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 06:33:14 PM »
"Elf-colored glasses" is my new favorite phrase.
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maxonennis

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 06:52:37 PM »
"Elf-colored glasses" is my new favorite phrase.

I'm rather fond of Abercrombie's entire pargraph that goes as such:

Quote
It’s a very simple argument he advances, really.  A kind of literary battle of good against evil, you might say.  On one side are the towering mythic geniuses of Tolkien and Howard, who wrote “in blood and lighting” according to Leo, although presumably on extremely hardwearing paper.  On the other side are, well, me, Steve Erikson, Michael Swanwick, and Matthew Woodring Stover, apparently.  I’ve never met those guys, or read any of their work, I must admit.  But that doesn’t mean they’re not down here with me in the evil postmodern myth-destruction bunker.  It’s a big old bunker we’ve got, and there’s lots of us down here.  Though I’m not entirely sure who.

Which is made hilarious due to Grin's general hate for fantasy and labeling anything beyond the cardboard cut out "postmodern blasphemies against our mythic heritage'.  ::)
"Don't argue with ignorance. And when you argue with me, that's all you get!" Mike

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fireflyz

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2011, 03:42:09 AM »
I haven't read the articles posted, but as it seems the original author didn't read, I don't suppose it matters.  Right?  Haha, I'll read them if I have the chance and post later.  I did want to say that I think that his premise is absurd.  I mean Joe Abercrombie's gimmick pitch (I don't mean this in a derogatory way) was that in many ways his protagonists were the antiheroes to normal fantasy.  If it was that common then it wouldn't have been a gimmick.

I think that whenever a certain style is dominating you will always have reactions to that.  And that's fine.  I think Abercrobmie is a good writer.  His prose is very nice.  I don't particularly like his stories that much.  It's not because his characters aren't shining good guys.  I like my fiction to leave me feeling that I've learned something, grown somehow, or generally just come out the other side enriched for having read the work.  Abercrombie is good fun and entertainment, but I've never felt a burning desire to reread his works, gleaning new nuances with every read.  (For the record, I've read all of his works save for Heroes).


Ultimately, anyone who puts out an article using rash generalizations is bound to be failures.  Have we gotten away from Tolkien's mass hordes of wholly evil beings that can be killed indiscriminately without compassion?  I think we have for the most part.  More stories feature characters with shades of grey or at least some humanity imbued into the villian.   Is that Nihilism?  I don't think so.

Just my two cents...
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daranthered

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2011, 05:27:54 AM »
I don't think Grim's article should be taken entirely seriously.  Anyone who lumps Tolkien and Howard together obviously isn't too well acquainted with the finer (or even general) points of fantasy literature.  It's the responses it's getting which I find interesting.

The Black Gate put up am article  (link below) which gives a list of all the authors which have commented (for, against and neutral) on the issue.   It's pretty informative to see where authors see themselves on the spectrum of "traditional" to "real." 

http://www.blackgate.com/2011/02/20/the-decline-and-fall-of-bankrupt-nihilism/

I think the argument itself is pretty much a non sequitur.   The whole thing is subjective.  A matter of personal taste.  Grim's statement that these types of stories dominate fantasy is not supported by the evidence.
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dhalagirl

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2011, 05:10:56 PM »
I have to agree with all of you.  This guy has no idea what he's talking about and he's overreacting.  Western civilization isn't going to collapse because of a few fantasy sub-genres.  Grim needs to grow a pair.

maxonennis

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2011, 06:50:46 PM »
I have to agree with all of you.  This guy has no idea what he's talking about and he's overreacting.  Western civilization isn't going to collapse because of a few fantasy sub-genres.  Grim needs to grow a pair.

I wouldn’t have a problem with the article if it were only an account of his dislike of darker fantasy novels. If someone doesn’t like that subgenre (which started with Robert A. Howard), that’s perfectly fine, but from his article he goes on a rant against any mildly successful fantasy novel sold in the last twenty years. If you don’t like fantasy, that’s fine also, but saying that you love the genre and then trying to denounce the whole genre is cheap ‘journalism’.

If the writer of the article had actually said what he meant instead of pretending not to say what he did, than I wouldn’t have had a problem with it. . . . If that makes sense.
"Don't argue with ignorance. And when you argue with me, that's all you get!" Mike

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dhalagirl

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 03:46:25 AM »
It makes sense.

guessingo

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 05:02:16 PM »
I would like to see more gritty fantasy. Not necessarily dark. Something where you take a gritty political thriller that could take place in the real world and put it into fantasy.

One thing to point out... the middle age era that most fantasy takes place in was a much bleaker world. Even in dark fantasy the authors rarely make it as dark as life really was. Virtually no one bathed. The infant mortality rate was over 50%. The fairy tale Hanzel and Gredel is based on actual truth. When the famines hit in the 1300s, people abandoned some of their children since they could not feed them all.

The leaders of Europe were basically a military aristocracy. The kinds were military dictators. The vast majority of these nobles could not read. People were hacked to pieces in wars. The average lifespan was probably in the 30s.  Peasants rarely left the villages they were born in. Serfs were basically slaves that you did not have to feed yourself.
It was common for children to go to sleep hungry at night.

There was very little technological innovation. so the only way to get wealth was by oppressing others. The catholic church was corrupt. (this is not church bashing, this is what lead to the reformation).

I think its hard for people to realize the difference in lifestyle in a modern/western society from how most of people in most of history lived. Even today most people in the world do not have access to quality medical care.

maxonennis

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 07:11:24 PM »
One thing to point out... the middle age era that most fantasy takes place in was a much bleaker world. Even in dark fantasy the authors rarely make it as dark as life really was. Virtually no one bathed. The infant mortality rate was over 50%. The fairy tale Hanzel and Gredel is based on actual truth. When the famines hit in the 1300s, people abandoned some of their children since they could not feed them all.

The leaders of Europe were basically a military aristocracy. The kinds were military dictators. The vast majority of these nobles could not read. People were hacked to pieces in wars. The average lifespan was probably in the 30s.  Peasants rarely left the villages they were born in. Serfs were basically slaves that you did not have to feed yourself.
It was common for children to go to sleep hungry at night.

There was very little technological innovation. so the only way to get wealth was by oppressing others. The catholic church was corrupt. (this is not church bashing, this is what lead to the reformation).

All of this is true, and while I think it justifies the existence of darker fantasy novels, fantasy as genre is inherently unabashed escapism. I think it would be sad and dishonest should all fantasy lose that part of itself. To that degree, I actually agree with the writer of that article.
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Maxonennis’ soliloquy on Frog relations: “How can I bake the hall in the candle of her brain?”

daranthered

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Re: Fallen Fantasist
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2011, 10:51:51 PM »
I would like to see more gritty fantasy. Not necessarily dark. Something where you take a gritty political thriller that could take place in the real world and put it into fantasy.

One thing to point out... the middle age era that most fantasy takes place in was a much bleaker world. Even in dark fantasy the authors rarely make it as dark as life really was. Virtually no one bathed. The infant mortality rate was over 50%. The fairy tale Hanzel and Gredel is based on actual truth. When the famines hit in the 1300s, people abandoned some of their children since they could not feed them all.

The leaders of Europe were basically a military aristocracy. The kinds were military dictators. The vast majority of these nobles could not read. People were hacked to pieces in wars. The average lifespan was probably in the 30s.  Peasants rarely left the villages they were born in. Serfs were basically slaves that you did not have to feed yourself.
It was common for children to go to sleep hungry at night.

There was very little technological innovation. so the only way to get wealth was by oppressing others. The catholic church was corrupt. (this is not church bashing, this is what lead to the reformation).

I think its hard for people to realize the difference in lifestyle in a modern/western society from how most of people in most of history lived. Even today most people in the world do not have access to quality medical care.

I would point out that while those are all historical truisms, fantasy doesn't necessarily come from an historically accurate premise.  In the same way that gas powers an engine, nostalgia powers fantasy.

I think many followers of fantasy long for simpler times, and simpler morals.  That's not to say that they don't want a rousing adventure story.  It's just that even the most Byzantine of Court intrigues seems straight forward compared to our days seemingly unanswerable questions.  While I wouldn't make the argument of unabashed escapism -I do think there's something psychologically satisfying in a narrative with more definitive elements of good and evil.  This is especially precious in fantasy because of the obsession with moral ambiguity in other "non genre" areas.  I would make the argument that the the kind of stories in fantasy, Romance, Westerns and the like are the kinds of stories that have entranced audiences for the last two thousand years.
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