Author Topic: <WoK spoiler>Mysterious Death mentioned in Brandon's Stormblessed.com interview  (Read 3122 times)

Cheese Ninja

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In honor of Asmodean, I’ll say that there is a mysterious death in The Way of Kings that could use some resources devoted to it. I did not put it in there simply because of Asmodean, but as I thought about it after writing it, I said, “Oh wow, I wonder if people will pick up on that.” So there you go.
- Brandon Sanderson at the end of the interview

I feel like I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that he didn't actually kill Gaz off, so I don't think it's him.  There are mysteries associated with Shallan's father's death and Gavilar's death, but who they were killed by is no mystery.  I looked on some other forums, and some people think that it is Shallan's brother's death.

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There was that matter of the strange collection of maps they’d found in his study. What did they mean? He’d rarely spoken of his plans to his children. Even her father’s advisors knew very little. Helaran—her eldest brother—had known more, but he had vanished over a year ago, and her father had proclaimed him dead.
  Shallan's thoughts on her brother

My personal theory was that the Shardbearer Kaladin killed was Nan Helaran, simply because the time of death and nationality match up (Edit: and both individuals were associated with the Ghostbloods).  But if it was Nan Helaran, I don't see this mystery being sustained as long as the mystery of Asmodean's death was in WoT.

Any other theories for mysterious deaths, and could someone source wherever I got the impression that we'll be seeing Gaz again?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 02:14:59 AM by Cheese Ninja »

andygal

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I suppose it's possible that that Shardbearer could have been Shallan's brother, although that feels like a bit much of a contrived coincidence for my tastes.

It also gives me bad bad images of Shallan walking up to Kaladin, summoning her Blade,and going "Hello, my name is Shallan Davar, you killed my brother, prepare to die." Even though she'd never do that. And I've never actually seen that movie. I hate you, TVTropes.

Cheese Ninja

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Amusingly enough, I'm using The Law of Conservation of Detail(link) as support for Nan Helaran being that Shardbearer.  Since that brother was the most closely associated with Shallan's father, he might have been just as big of a jerk as her father was.  And even when Shallan finds out that it was Kaladin who killed him, she's not really in a position to judge other people for killing her family members, she has done the same thing after all.

happyman

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Shallan's brother's death seems the most likely candidate, by virtue of being pretty darn close to the only choice left.  Most other deaths have obvious suspects or are being actively investigated.  That's the only one we know which comes out of nowhere and has no emphasis placed on it.
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dhalagirl

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I'm not so sure it was her brother.  If it was, you'd think the loss of Shardplate would've been listed among her family's losses.  That's not something other nobles would overlook.  Also given the value of Shardplate, it's not something another noble would have lent him for the battle.

Cheese Ninja

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We don't know how the Ghostbloods as an organization treat their Shardplate and Shardblades.  They might have multiple hidden sets.  We know from Dalinar's visions that there is a lot more Shardplate/Shardblades in existence.  The Ghostbloods were willing to lend a Soulcaster to Shallan's father to help their goals, and it's been implied that Soulcasters are nearly as valuable as Shardblades.

They might have thought it was a safe bet to use one of their members to kill Amaram, if it wasn't for Kaladin, the Shardbearer would have easily killed Amaram and been able to get away. 

I don't think that the shards belonged to House Davar, and I'm not even sure Shallan's shardblade belongs to House Davar.  That she and her brothers didn't sell the shardblade when they needed money means either no one besides Shallan knows about it and she's unwilling to sell it, or that her and her brothers are afraid of the scrutiny that would be caused by selling it.

andygal

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I'm going with "nobody besides Shallan knows about it."

Cause if her brothers knew about it, they'd either be wondering where it went, if  they didn't know what happened to it, or Balat would have pressured her into handing it over.

I'm guessing it was a total secret on her father's part, except maybe from Helaran, and Shallan was totally shocked when she killed him and found out he'd had it. And then she decided to grab it and keep it a secret, cause if anybody'd found out about it they'd have  been wondering where it came from, and she  obviously doesn't want anybody to know that she killed her dad.

Argent

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What bothers me more is why Shallan killed her father. I believe the Blade was his before the assassination/murder, since some of Shallan's memories mention blood in the room - which would not have been present if she killed him with the Blade. So, the way I see it, she killed the good old Davar the old fashioned way, took his Blade, and then kept the Blade in secret from her brothers. The part that confuses me is that Shallan doesn't seem the type to do anything like that - kill her father for personal gain, and then hide such an essential thing from her brothers. She seems genuine. And not exactly happy the murder.

So, yea...
Power doesn't always have to corrupt. In many ways, it can change a man for the better.

andygal

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The fact that the Blade was his is strongly supported by the fact that she thinks of it as the fruit of her sin and the proceeds of her most horrible act, it's hard to imagine her doing something more horrible then killing her father to get it. Killing your dad is pretty horrible, even if he was a nasty piece of work.

I don't think she killed him for the Blade, like I said,  I doubt anybody but him, and whoever he got it from (possibly the Ghostbloods although if he got it from them, why didn't  they ask about it as well as the soulcaster?) knew about it. Except maybe Helaran. So she didn't know about it till after she killed him,and the Blade materialized itself.

I think he went too far abusing one of her brothers (who she obviously cares about a lot) and she finally had enough of that crap, and killed him in the heat of anger.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 06:02:19 AM by andygal »

dhalagirl

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We don't know how the Ghostbloods as an organization treat their Shardplate and Shardblades.  They might have multiple hidden sets.  We know from Dalinar's visions that there is a lot more Shardplate/Shardblades in existence.  The Ghostbloods were willing to lend a Soulcaster to Shallan's father to help their goals, and it's been implied that Soulcasters are nearly as valuable as Shardblades.

They might have thought it was a safe bet to use one of their members to kill Amaram, if it wasn't for Kaladin, the Shardbearer would have easily killed Amaram and been able to get away. 

I forgot to take the Ghostbloods into consideration.  It is quite possible that it was him.  I also agree with andygal about the blade.  It had to be in her father's possession and she definitely killed him in defense, not for personal gain.  Whose defense, I can't say.  It may have been for one of her brothers, but it may have been for herself as well.  He was stifling her passion and creativity (amongst other things). 

Argent, I think you hit the nail on the head about the murder weapon being something more mundane, if it was a weapon that killed him.  Just because there was blood, doesn't necessarily mean that it came from an open wound.  It's been a while since I've read it, but I don't remember a wound being mentioned as the cause of death. 

Cheese Ninja

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We really don't have much we can speculate on as far as Shallan's father's death is concerned.  It's notable that his Soulcaster was found inside the interior breast pocket of his coat, and that it was sheared through.  Anything that's sharp enough and with enough force behind it might be capable of cutting through the soulcaster, but the only other times we see the word "shear" used in this book is with the shardblades.  It's possible that it fell on top of him when materializing after his death and cut through the coat he was wearing.  Another point people keep seem to be skipping, a Shardblade can leave a bloody corpse because a slash after death will cut through the person's now dead flesh.  It just means that someone would have to be attacking wildly with it.

And I found the thread that somehow left me with the impression that Gaz was still alive, but now that I've looked at it again, I could have been misinterpreting it.
People in the book ask what happened to Gaz a couple of times after he disappeared, so it's supposed to be something that sticks out.

Tvlakv didn't stay at the warcamps after he sold his slaves. In a series like this, I expect a lot of people will show up again later.
Gaz might be the mysterious death/disappearance mentioned in the interview.

andygal

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I still say that the wording of her thoughts about the Blade indicates that she must have gotten it from him after he died, and he wasn't killed with it.

It's possible that she was so pissed off at him that she picked up the Blade and took a few swings at his corpse for good measure, thus shearing through the soulcaster. Although I'd think his corpse would have been in pieces if she'd done that, kinda hard to slice partway through something with a Shardblade, unless it's really big, especially if she was pissed off at him in the first place, doesn't sound like it was in pieces. And if she was swinging wildly at the corpse with it, she'd have put some nice holes in the floor too,and somebody would have noticed the nice neat holes in the floor.

It's also possible that the Blade landed on the coat when materializing and sliced through the soulcaster that way.

happyman

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I still say that the wording of her thoughts about the Blade indicates that she must have gotten it from him after he died, and he wasn't killed with it.

It's possible that she was so pissed off at him that she picked up the Blade and took a few swings at his corpse for good measure, thus shearing through the soulcaster. Although I'd think his corpse would have been in pieces if she'd done that, kinda hard to slice partway through something with a Shardblade, unless it's really big, especially if she was pissed off at him in the first place, doesn't sound like it was in pieces. And if she was swinging wildly at the corpse with it, she'd have put some nice holes in the floor too,and somebody would have noticed the nice neat holes in the floor.

It's also possible that the Blade landed on the coat when materializing and sliced through the soulcaster that way.

I've made this same argument about her thoughts on the blade many a time.  We don't have a lot of evidence on how her father was killed, but from what I've seen, the little we do have points away from the blade being used.  My guess is that the blade never became involved at all. 

Of course, evidence is so sparse, it's hard to say anything one way or the other.
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kari-no-sugata

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Going back to the original post, I'd say there's one "mysterious" death I can see. Well, more like suspicious. Luesh - Shallan's father's steward who "died in his sleep".

If Gaz is/was dead then that would be "mysterious", though not especially so.

There's also one death that I file under "possibly suspicious" - Kabsal. He died a bit too off-camera, as it were, for a "major" character. Maybe he would have survived (probably had some back-up antidote and had probably taken some antidote beforehand anyway) and Jasnah took the opportunity to kill him that made it look like he died of poison. Option 2 - maybe Tarvangian had him killed (there is a set of dying words from "one of our own ardents" if I remember correctly).

kari-no-sugata

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On Shallan killing her father... I certainly have plenty of questions.

Shallan hates conflict / people shouting etc. There's no indication that this is recent. So if her father was beating up one of her brothers in a rage, she would likely flee if possible or probably sit in a corner hugging her knees or something. Was she sufficiently provoked that she overcame that? Possible, but seems a bit convenient - though possibly after taking action once, she became even more fearful of conflict.

Without a good weapon, how could Shallan kill her father? She should be far weaker than him. She has no weapons training or training in combat either. Her father should have both. So for Shallan to have been able to kill her father in a violent rage does seem unlikely.

Did she actually kill him or just feel responsible? Her brothers don't seem to treat her like a killer in the bits we see.

There's also no positive evidence that I remember that her brothers know she has a Shardblade. If she jumped in to save one of her brothers and killed her father and got the Shardeblade there, then they should know. As for not selling the blade maybe they're so ludicrously expensive that they basically can't be sold without huge risks - maybe selling it would be a last ditch option.

On a side note, could Shallan even wield a Shardblade? I seem to remember them being quite heavy - works well with Shardplate because of that. Can't find reference to weight right now though. Szeth's one is unusually small and he also had Stormlight to boost him. That being said, Shallan seemed to think she could use it, which is why she tried to summon it at one point - that she shouldn't bother trying to use the Soulcaster since she doesn't know how to use it but does start summoning the Shardblade instead, even though she promised herself that she wouldn't use it. So maybe she has used it before.

Enough hints to speculate, but far from enough to reach any firm conclusions.