Parshendi (WoK spoilers)

[Melriken]

Parshendi are not dozens of feet tall, and the armor is not hard as rock either, though. Remember that we still have no solid evidence that Jasnah is actually right. What is described in the quote from the Prelude above sounds like a thunderclast.

This discussion lead me to a new idea about the voidbringers: The other beings described to have rock-like skin, or shells, are the chulls! Chasmfiends, too, but chulls are also described as having rock-like shells, plus red claws and legs. This may be a little far out, but most of the prophecies could also fit chulls... Music when they kill does finger the Parshendi though.

The parshendi shardbearer that fought Dalinar was "a seven-foot-tall giant" (page 930 of the orignal hardback (chap 68)).  Like the Red and Black skin became Fire and Ash, the impressive stature became a Dozen Feet, then Dozens of feet, and the hard Carapace became rock.

Thunderclast are beasts of rock, they have no skin and would not be described as having skin as hard as rock, but rather beign described as having skin OF rock (or more likely as having a body made of rock). Also the "Skin as hard as rock" quote includes nothing about triangular heads.

Chasmfiends are not "Beasts of rock and flame" Even their blood isn't red, they are a much worse match for the Voidbringers then the Parshendi are, and they are not intelligent.  No animal foe, regardless of how strong, fast, or powerful, is as dangerous as an intelligent Foe.

[CabbyHat]

I find Melriken's champion theory compelling, but there is something that bothers me in it. When the Almighty spoke in Dalinar's vision, he implied that Odium could be persuaded to choose a champion sometime in the future. Of course, you could argue that the visions were more of diary than a true visitation by a god's spirit, but if I recall correctly, Dalinar spoke with the Almighty directly at the end. So Honor must be in the correct time frame. Which could imply that Odium does not have a champion yet.

Dalinar never speaks directly with the Almighty; he's just answering pre-recorded responses, and explicitly states that the Almighty can't actually hear him.

[happyman]

Parshendi are not dozens of feet tall, and the armor is not hard as rock either, though. Remember that we still have no solid evidence that Jasnah is actually right. What is described in the quote from the Prelude above sounds like a thunderclast.

This discussion lead me to a new idea about the voidbringers: The other beings described to have rock-like skin, or shells, are the chulls! Chasmfiends, too, but chulls are also described as having rock-like shells, plus red claws and legs. This may be a little far out, but most of the prophecies could also fit chulls... Music when they kill does finger the Parshendi though.

The parshendi shardbearer that fought Dalinar was "a seven-foot-tall giant" (page 930 of the orignal hardback (chap 68)).  Like the Red and Black skin became Fire and Ash, the impressive stature became a Dozen Feet, then Dozens of feet, and the hard Carapace became rock.

Thunderclast are beasts of rock, they have no skin and would not be described as having skin as hard as rock, but rather beign described as having skin OF rock (or more likely as having a body made of rock). Also the "Skin as hard as rock" quote includes nothing about triangular heads.

Chasmfiends are not "Beasts of rock and flame" Even their blood isn't red, they are a much worse match for the Voidbringers then the Parshendi are, and they are not intelligent.  No animal foe, regardless of how strong, fast, or powerful, is as dangerous as an intelligent Foe.

Quoted for agreement.  Jasnah's research was very careful, and with careful accounting for exaggeration and mythologizing, the sources we have in the book make a very good case for the Parshendi being Voidbringers.  Because we don't even know what being a Voidbringer means, I am withholding judgment as to who they are associated with.

[Tortellini]

Jasnah's research was very careful, and with careful accounting for exaggeration and mythologizing, the sources we have in the book make a very good case for the Parshendi being Voidbringers.  Because we don't even know what being a Voidbringer means, I am withholding judgment as to who they are associated with.

Sorry to be nitpicking here, but she makes a case for the Parshmen being the Voidbringers. She herself believes the Parshendi may be a clue to what's going on, and that they are a special case. Quite possibly the Parshendi may be an ally against the rising normal Parshmen - if for example they are resistant to whatever turns Parshmen into killing machines.

[Melriken]

Sorry to be nitpicking here, but she makes a case for the Parshmen being the Voidbringers. She herself believes the Parshendi may be a clue to what's going on, and that they are a special case. Quite possibly the Parshendi may be an ally against the rising normal Parshmen - if for example they are resistant to whatever turns Parshmen into killing machines.

And your theory on why they killed Gavilar is?

The Parshendi killed the man most likely to unite Alethki and bring peace to the world so it can better fight the coming Desolation (If I had to guess I would say that Gavilar got the same visions that Dalinar is getting now), have armored Carapace (like the Rock hard skin of the Voidbringers of legend), and are doing a solid job of killing as many Alethki soldiers as they can (if you push too hard the Alethki would pull back to defensive positions and you would kill fewer of them).

Jasnah is trying to figure out how to bring the normal Parshmen to bear against the Parshendi before Odium has a chance to turn the normal Parshmen INTO Parshendi and kill everyone.

[Melriken]

Because I wanted to gather them all in one place anyhow, and they are relevant to this discussion... I am going to post all the Epigraphs of Part 3 (Jasnah's Journal)

29 - "The ones of ash and fire, who killed like a swarm, relentless before the Heralds." --Noted in Masly, page 337. Corroborated by Coldwin and Hasavah.
30 - "They were suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest." --This fragment is the origin of a Thaylen proverb that was eventually reworked into a more common derivation. I believe it may reference the Voidbringers. See Ixsix's Emperor, fourth chapter.
31 - Six Years Ago
32 - "They lived high atop a place no man could reach, but all could visit. The tower city itself, crafted by the hands of no man." --Though The Song of the Last Summer is a fanciful tale of romance from the third century after the Recreance, it is likely a valid reference in this case. See page 27 of Varala's translation, and note the undertext.
33 - "They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances. Never underestimate them because of what you first see." - Purports to be a scrap collected from Talatin, a Radiant of the Order of Stonewards. The source --Guvlow's Incarnate-- is generally held as reliable, though this is from a copied fragment of "The Poem of the Seventh Morning." which has been lost.
34 - "I walked from Abamabar to Urithiru" --This quote from the Eighth Parable of The Way of Kings seems to contradict Varala and Sinbian, who both claim the city was inaccessible by foot. Perhaps there was a way constructed, or perhaps Nohadon was being metaphorical.
35 - "Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor." --Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, re-quoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn't give for a way to translate the Dawnchant.
36 - "Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above." --From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these "Dawnshards" are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.
37 - Five and a Half years Ago
38 - "Born from the darkness, they bear its taint still, marked upon their bodies much as the fire marks their souls." --I consider Gashash-son-Navammis a trustworthy source, though I'm not certain about this translation. Find the original quote in the fourteenth book of Seld and retranslate it myself, perhaps?
39 - "Within a heartbeat, Alezaro was there, crossing a distance that would have taken more then four months to travel by foot." --Another folktale, this one recorded in Among the Darkeyed, by Calinam. Page 102. Stories of instantaneous travel and the Oathgates pervade these tales.
40 - "Death upon the lips. Sound upon the air. Char upon the skin." --From "The Last Desolation" by Ambrian, line 335.
41 - Five and a Half Years ago
42 - "Like a highstorm, regular in their coming, yet always unexpected." --The word Desolation is used twice in reference to their appearances. See pages 57, 59, and 64 of Tales by Hearthlight.
43 - "They lived out in the wilds, always awaiting the Desolation--or sometimes, a foolish child who took no heed of the night's darkness." --A child's tale, yes, but this quote from Shadows Remembered seems to hint at the truth I seek. See page 82, the fourth tale.
44 - Five Years Ago
45 - "Yelig-nar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed." --The Unmade were obviously fabrications of folklore. Curiously, most were not considered individuals, but instead personifications of kinds of destruction. This quote is from Traxil, line 33, considered a primary source, though I doubt its authenticity.
46 - "Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature." --Following the firing of the original Palanaeum, only one page of Terxim's autobiography remained, and this is the only line of any use to me.
47 - One Year Ago
48 - "They take away the light, wherever they lurk. Skin that is burned." --Cormshen, page 104.
49 - "Radiant / of birthplace / the announcer comes / to come announce / the birthplace of Radiants." --Though I am not overly fond of the ketek poetic form as a means of conveying information, this one by Allahn is often quoted in reference to Urithiru. I believe some mistook the home of the Radiants for their birthplace.
50 - "Flame and char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness." --A quote from the Iviad probably needs no reference notation, but this comes from line 482, should I need to locate it quickly.
51 - One Year Ago

Of particular note are 30, 33, 42, and 43.  Which seem to indicate that the Parshendi are the Voidbringers (33 being a comment on them changing, possibly explaining the "Dozens of feet tall" comment).

_{Edit: Epigraphs not Epitaphs...}

[Argent]

Reading this makes me think... 'They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances.' Assuming this is really referring to the Voidbringers, and assuming the Voidbringers really are the Parshendi, we haven't seen a single indication that they can change forms, especially in a swift manner. Maybe they can grow their chitin-like armor at will, but it doesn't seem like that is a fast process.

Could this be an argument against the claim that the two are the same? Or maybe the Voidbringers aren't as human-like as Jasnah likes to think. Maybe the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, but somehow inhibited, weakened.

[Melriken]

Reading this makes me think... 'They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances.' Assuming this is really referring to the Voidbringers, and assuming the Voidbringers really are the Parshendi, we haven't seen a single indication that they can change forms, especially in a swift manner. Maybe they can grow their chitin-like armor at will, but it doesn't seem like that is a fast process.

Could this be an argument against the claim that the two are the same? Or maybe the Voidbringers aren't as human-like as Jasnah likes to think. Maybe the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, but somehow inhibited, weakened.

I think the Parshendi want war across the world. They are afraid of Alethkar uniting and then bringing the rest of the world together as well.

The best way to prevent that is to give the highprinces sport, and keep them out of the country so their people will fight with each other and other nations will be willing to attack Alethkar in minor boarder skrimishes (not afraid of Alethkar's shardbearers because they are all at the warcamps). Posing a REAL threat to Alethkar is the best way to get the exact opposite to happen, Unite the nation and bring others in to help them.

Thus the Parshendi send just enough forces onto the Plateaus to fight, but not overwhelm the Alethkar,  and they grow armor that is hard, but not impenetrable to normal troops.  They let Alethkar think it is winning to that it will stay fractured as 10 mini-kingdoms until they are ready to strike everywhere at once and truly begin the Desolation.

Also Kaladin has seen the insides of a Parshendi, and they are NOT human, not even close. And he has the medical training to know.

[happyman]

Reading this makes me think... 'They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances.' Assuming this is really referring to the Voidbringers, and assuming the Voidbringers really are the Parshendi, we haven't seen a single indication that they can change forms, especially in a swift manner. Maybe they can grow their chitin-like armor at will, but it doesn't seem like that is a fast process.

Could this be an argument against the claim that the two are the same? Or maybe the Voidbringers aren't as human-like as Jasnah likes to think. Maybe the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, but somehow inhibited, weakened.

Or the quotes have been distorted by the passage of time, and we can't take them absolutely literally.  I think if I were a scholar, what I would take out here are the terms "transform" (probably from Parshmen to Parshendi) and "flame" (e.g. the skin.) and ignore the rest as hyperbole.

[CabbyHat]

Also Kaladin has seen the insides of a Parshendi, and they are NOT human, not even close. And he has the medical training to know.

When was this? I remember that he saw under the carapace armor, but I didn't think he actually got to the innards.

[andygal]

I don't think he got to the innards either, except he had to saw bits of skull off cause the carapace was attached to the skull itself, so he would have seen bits of the membranes that cover the brain,but still you can tell something about physiology just by getting a close look at the outsides, which he did, also they have orange blood, which suggests a decidedly non-human biochemistry.   

Of course, the Lord Ruler was able to turn humans into mistwraiths, which are seemingly even less human, so if the power of a Shard got involved...........

[Melriken]

Kaladin quickly determined that Parshendi physiology was very different from human physiology.

Though re-reading it he is mostly talking about all the "small blue ligaments" that hold the breastplate to the skin underneath.  Though there is also talk of there not being much blood (because it pooled in the corpse's back or leaked away already), so I think it fair to assume he didn't manage to cut away the breastplate without cutting through the skin a fair bit and seeing at least some of what was underneath.

But yes, the comment isn't as strong as I remembered it being.

[old aggie]

I very much like unreal's theory re: Parshendi being infused with the spirits of men.

And I like Melriken's theory re: champions, especially in that battle at the Tower. Whether or not that's exactly what the prophecy referred to, it could be related.

I assumed that the creatures described as "horrors of rock ... dozens of feet tall" were the thunderclasts, which we see at the very beginning of the book ("a dying thunderclast"). I picture the Parshendi body-armor more like an insect's shell - flexible, chitinous - not like rock at all.

Also, I did not assume that all Jasnah's quotes referred to the Voidbringers - I think some of them refer to other enemies, like that "Midnight [something]" in one of Dalinar's visions. (Sorry for the imprecise quote - a friend has my copy of tWoK now.)

I realize this theory is kinda out there, but when I read about the Parshendi -vs- the Parshmen, it just *feels* like something Brandon would do.

[Ipood]

Since this is a topic for the unhuman creatures known as Parshendi, does anybody else think that there is something connecting the Parshendi and the Aimia?

[happyman]

Since this is a topic for the unhuman creatures known as Parshendi, does anybody else think that there is something connecting the Parshendi and the Aimia?

I got the impression that on first glance, the Aimia look a lot more human than the Parshendi, although there are obviously some very important differences under the covers.