Author Topic: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)  (Read 6541 times)

Pechvarry

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2010, 07:46:42 PM »
This is probably off-topic, but a thought occurred to me relevant to Spren, so this seemed like the place for it:

**Elantris Spoilers**

While saying in another thread "we can't be sure Seons are the splinters of a shard", I realized the Seons "bind" to people, much like spren apparently can.  This makes me wonder if there's a correlation.  Since there's theorizing of spren being splinters of the Almighty, it would further reinforce this connection.

-A shard needs a consciousness to wield.  Over time, the consciousness becomes the shard.
-A splinter can obtain its own consciousness, but requires a host to realize it.

And that's all I've got.

Fireborn

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2010, 09:53:57 PM »
Page 978
Quote
"What of the creatures with the symbol heads?"  Shallan asked.  She flipped through her sketches, then held up an image of them.  "Do you see them too?  How are they related?"

Jasnah frowned, taking the image, "You see beings like this?  In Shadesmar?"

"They appear in my drawings," Shallan said.  "They're around me, Jasnah.  You don't see them?  Am I-"

Jasnah held up a hand.  "These are a type of spren, Shallan.  They are related to what you do."  She tapped the desk softly.  "Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasing ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabirals were designed, I believe.  I had assumed that you...But no, that obviously wouldn't make sense.  I see now."
Am I remembering it wrong now?

Apparently just reading it wrong. There's nothing in that quote that says that there are two different types of Soulcasting, and there's nothing that says Jasnah doesn't also deal with these spren. She was alarmed when she thought that Shallan saw them in Shadesmar, but that's not what Shallan meant. Even Shallan can't see them really; they only show up in her drawings.
If there weren't two different types of Soulcasting, then why would they have two orders for them?  One type of magic to an order makes a lot more sense than nine types with two orders of identical magic.

Regardless, this difference implies that there is a difference between how they use Soulcasting.  Even if it is just the different things they can do with it.  This could be enough to form a split in the magic that would make it worth separating into two orders of Knights.

Quote from: Cheese Ninja
2/10 Orders of Knights Radiants possessed inherent Soulcasting ability.  Does that mean Knights from other Orders could learn to do it as well?

It depends on whether or not fabrial technology was in use at the time, probably. It appears as though each order of the Radiants had two abilities, and each ability was shared by two orders (hence the connections on the Double Eye chart).
I doubt that Knights not of the Soulcasting orders could do so without a Fabrial.  The way Jasnah and Shallan do things rings more of inborn magic than learned.
When to live is to die, and to die is to live, does either really matter?

Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2010, 10:09:52 PM »
If there weren't two different types of Soulcasting, then why would they have two orders for them?

Like I said before, it seems like each Order shares a talent with two other Orders, which means that each Order has two talents, and each talent is shared by two orders. Check out the Double Eye:



As you can see, each Order is connected to two other Orders, and also to the center of the chart. Of course, if you count the connections crossing the center, they are connected to three other Orders. Some (not me) have theorized that this has to do with the abilities they shared. It could also be that the smaller symbols refer to the Orders, or that it's more complicated than what has been proposed so far, but it's a pretty good theory as to the structure of the chart, and the significance of the paths.

Quote from: fireborn
Regardless, this difference implies that there is a difference between how they use Soulcasting.

I don't see how.

Quote from: Fireborn
Quote from: Cheese Ninja
2/10 Orders of Knights Radiants possessed inherent Soulcasting ability.  Does that mean Knights from other Orders could learn to do it as well?

It depends on whether or not fabrial technology was in use at the time, probably. It appears as though each order of the Radiants had two abilities, and each ability was shared by two orders (hence the connections on the Double Eye chart).
I doubt that Knights not of the Soulcasting orders could do so without a Fabrial.

Jasnah said that they could - their ability was inherent.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 10:12:31 PM by Terez »

Morsker

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2010, 10:41:59 PM »
Both Jasnah and Shallan need to visit Shadesmar to Soulcast, and they need to take Stormlight with them. It's not clear where the differences lie. Having to trade truths feels appropriate to Shash and Creative / Honest, and Jasnah may not trade truths. At the least, something about the symbol-head spren surprised Jasnah, and she had to pause to reason about it, concluding that Shallan had the powers of a different order. But once they get to Shadesmar, they're doing the same thing. Does everyone agree on this much at least?

As you can see, each Order is connected to two other Orders, and also to the center of the chart. Of course, if you count the connections crossing the center, they are connected to three other Orders. Some (not me) have theorized that this has to do with the abilities they shared. It could also be that the smaller symbols refer to the Orders, or that it's more complicated than what has been proposed so far, but it's a pretty good theory as to the structure of the chart, and the significance of the paths.

The placement of Soulcasting would be very different, depending on which set of circles is Orders. If the small circles are Orders, then Soulcasting is just one of the big circles, and the powers shared by two Orders. But if the large circles are Orders, Soulcasting could be the two in the middle.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 11:05:32 PM by Morsker »

Cheese Ninja

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2010, 11:29:22 PM »
I wonder if Jasnah really needs to visit Shadesmar for smaller transmutations, or if there's some shortcut she can use.  Visiting Shadesmar really seems like too big a deal to do over the minor things I've already listed (running out of ink and needing a paperweight.), plus it seems like it would be pretty disorienting to use when she killed those bandits.

I agree that once they get to Shadesmar they do the same thing, and that it produces the same effects.  Pretty sure Fireborn disagrees.

Oh yeah, in the picture, the green on the bottom probably represents Jasnah's assumed Order (Palah, Learned/Giving (this is what it should be, according to Peter it was misprinted)) and the red to the left is Shallan's (Shash, Creative/Honest)

Morsker

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2010, 11:40:57 PM »
I have difficulty deciding between Palah and Nah for Jasnah. She seems very proficient with smoke, and terrible with organic things, which suggests Nah. That would make her Just/Confident instead of Learned/Giving, but it still fits her character.

On the other hand, Vorin associates the double eye with the Almighty's creation of plants and animals. If Soulcasting is the two in the middle, that Pulp and Blood, or Palah and Shash, seems appropriate.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 03:24:12 AM by Morsker »

Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2010, 02:23:10 AM »
Both Jasnah and Shallan need to visit Shadesmar to Soulcast, and they need to take Stormlight with them. It's not clear where the differences lie. Having to trade truths feels appropriate to Shash and Creative / Honest, and Jasnah may not trade truths. At the least, something about the symbol-head spren surprised Jasnah, and she had to pause to reason about it, concluding that Shallan had the powers of a different order. But once they get to Shadesmar, they're doing the same thing. Does everyone agree on this much at least?

I believe so. The main thing that was bothering me was the implication that there are two types of Soulcasting from the comment about the two Orders, when it seems to me that ten is more likely...and of course we know that much from the Ars Arcanum. It makes sense that certain people would be more attuned to certain Essences. I think that Jasnah's surprise is explained well enough by the fact that Shallan even saw them at all (she doesn't really, of course), and the assumption that she had seen them in Shadesmar (which she hadn't).

Quote from: Morsker
As you can see, each Order is connected to two other Orders, and also to the center of the chart. Of course, if you count the connections crossing the center, they are connected to three other Orders. Some (not me) have theorized that this has to do with the abilities they shared. It could also be that the smaller symbols refer to the Orders, or that it's more complicated than what has been proposed so far, but it's a pretty good theory as to the structure of the chart, and the significance of the paths.

The placement of Soulcasting would be very different, depending on which set of circles is Orders. If the small circles are Orders, then Soulcasting is just one of the big circles, and the powers shared by two Orders. But if the large circles are Orders, Soulcasting could be the two in the middle.

Yeah, it's a complicated question. I think I will start a new thread for it.

Stormblessed

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2010, 02:40:05 AM »
Just commenting on the picture above.

What does that gem (ruby?) symbolise? I there any special readon it only surrounds 2 of the glyphs/essences?

Is it possibly that the smaller glyphs represent types of spren, and the lines connect them to the orders that these spren can bond to in order to give the Knights power?
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Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2010, 02:48:19 AM »
Just commenting on the picture above.

What does that gem (ruby?) symbolise? I there any special readon it only surrounds 2 of the glyphs/essences?

It is the Double Eye of the Almighty, with two pupils (it's discussed in the Ars Arcanum).  The oldest version of it does not include the smaller ten glyphs:



Which, along with other evidence, makes it most likely that the large ones represent the Heralds. The two in the center are emerald and heliodor, one of which can be used to make food, the other of which can be used to heal. This makes me think that heliodor is the stone not used for currency at all; it is too valuable.

Quote from: stormblessed
Is it possibly that the smaller glyphs represent types of spren, and the lines connect them to the orders that these spren can bond to in order to give the Knights power?
Quote

I think they are more likely to represent the orders, since they share powers between them.

Stormblessed

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2010, 02:53:10 AM »
Just commenting on the picture above.

What does that gem (ruby?) symbolise? I there any special readon it only surrounds 2 of the glyphs/essences?

It is the Double Eye of the Almighty, with two pupils (it's discussed in the Ars Arcanum).  The oldest version of it does not include the smaller ten glyphs:



Which, along with other evidence, makes it most likely that the large ones represent the Heralds. The two in the center are emerald and heliodor, one of which can be used to make food, the other of which can be used to heal. This makes me think that heliodor is the stone not used for currency at all; it is too valuable.

I was refering specifically the the red gem in that picture. I realised that the picture as a whole was the double eye of the almighty, however that middle gem seemed to represent something special.

Quote from: stormblessed
Is it possibly that the smaller glyphs represent types of spren, and the lines connect them to the orders that these spren can bond to in order to give the Knights power?
Quote

I think they are more likely to represent the orders, since they share powers between them.

I also think it is strange the talenel introduced himself as stonesinew in the epilogue, refering himself to 2 essences. Thus i began wondering if those smaller glyphs might also represent the heralds. But then that conflicts with each order being established by 1 herald. Now confused! ???

So what is it: Spren, Order or Herald?
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Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2010, 03:47:48 AM »
I was refering specifically the the red gem in that picture.

It doesn't seem to have the same structural significance as the other spheres. In this one, it serves as the background of the pupils - the iris of the eye, I suppose - but in the other one, it is a background for the face. It reminds me of the red sun from one of the death quotes.

Quote from: stormblessed
I also think it is strange the talenel introduced himself as stonesinew in the epilogue, refering himself to 2 essences.
Well, Sinew is an Essence (that of Ishar), but stone is the soulcasting property of Taln's stone - topaz. He is connected to Sinew in the Eye, and sinew is secondary in his title, so perhaps each Herald has a special connection to another (might be male-female connections).

Quote from: stormblessed
Thus i began wondering if those smaller glyphs might also represent the heralds. But then that conflicts with each order being established by 1 herald. Now confused! ???

Was each order established by one Herald? In any case, it doesn't necessarily conflict. I don't think we have quite enough information to figure out every detail just yet. 

Stormblessed

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2010, 04:09:00 AM »
Well, Sinew is an Essence (that of Ishar), but stone is the soulcasting property of Taln's stone - topaz. He is connected to Sinew in the Eye, and sinew is secondary in his title, so perhaps each Herald has a special connection to another (might be male-female connections).

I like the male-female connection, except I think Ishar is a guy (from herald pictures).

Was each order established by one Herald? In any case, it doesn't necessarily conflict. I don't think we have quite enough information to figure out every detail just yet. 

Each herald being based on an order is established as each order name is a shaortened version of the herals names (e.g. Jes = Jezriem). I also remember reading that each order was founded by a different Herald.
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Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2010, 06:02:48 AM »
Well, Sinew is an Essence (that of Ishar), but stone is the soulcasting property of Taln's stone - topaz. He is connected to Sinew in the Eye, and sinew is secondary in his title, so perhaps each Herald has a special connection to another (might be male-female connections).

I like the male-female connection, except I think Ishar is a guy (from herald pictures).

Is there something official linking the pictures with the names? Or perhaps some reason I'm missing?

Quote from: stormblessed
Was each order established by one Herald? In any case, it doesn't necessarily conflict. I don't think we have quite enough information to figure out every detail just yet. 

Each herald being based on an order is established as each order name is a shaortened version of the herals names (e.g. Jes = Jezriem). I also remember reading that each order was founded by a different Herald.

Those are names of numbers, not names of Orders - those have names like Windrunners and Stonewards. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I don't remember reading that each order was founded by a different Herald...just that the Heralds founded the Radiants.

Edit: Nevermind...I think I see what you are getting at. Stonewards=Taln and Windrunners=Jezrien because of Soulcasting properties (and also gem colors - the Stonewards glow amber and the Windrunners glow blue).
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 06:11:55 AM by Terez »

Stormblessed

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2010, 06:14:36 AM »
Read this post.
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7910.0

Theres nothing 100% official. But the theory is well supported and I think it is likely correct.
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Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2010, 06:25:39 AM »
I have seen that post, but I don't see how the gemstones are connected to the faces - I assume that's what he means by 'male' and 'female' images. It seems he is basing it off the assumption that Ishar sounds like a male name to him.