Author Topic: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)  (Read 6540 times)

FollowYourMuse

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Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« on: September 27, 2010, 04:53:13 PM »

In thinking of Shallan and her ability to see the Spren, in her memories that she unconciously then draws, I am wondering if there is any correlation or effect on the Spren, similar to the 2 Ardents Geranid and Ashir that find measuring the spren and writting it down "fixes" them at a certain height/aspect.


Never

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2010, 04:59:12 PM »
My current theory about spren is that they're the physical manifestation of a cognitive-realm creature. Their physical forms remain mutable because large parts of them are still undefined at the cognative level.

I think Shallan's observation of them might make them more fixed in some way, though I assume it's more than just their size.

Stormblessed

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2010, 02:37:45 AM »
I agree with never for the most part.

But Shallan seeing the spren is just like Kaladin seeing Syl. People see the spren they are bonded with, though in different ways (for Shaallan it is through her drawings, which may have something to do with the fact that her element is closely related to art). But people not bonded with those spren cannot, unless they are special in some way like Rock. Though, now that Syl is getting more powerful, she is easier to see.
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Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2010, 12:46:50 AM »
Sorry for digging up an old thread, but this looked like a good one in which to post my question.

When Nohadon is talking to Dalinar, he notes that the Nahel bond did not make Alkavish, a Surgebinder, a better man. And then he says 'Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren.'

This indicates that Honorspren are very discerning, but that the spren associated with Alkavish was not. But Kaladin is a Surgebinder, and his powers are in some way granted by his Honorspren, Syl.

So, was Alkavish a Surgebinder by some means other than an Honorspren? Can different kinds of spren grant Surgebinding powers?

Also, what is the Nahel bond, if not a bond between a person and an Honorspren?

Morsker

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2010, 05:48:06 AM »
So, was Alkavish a Surgebinder by some means other than an Honorspren? Can different kinds of spren grant Surgebinding powers?

Also, what is the Nahel bond, if not a bond between a person and an Honorspren?

Those are anyone's best guesses. I suspect the same; the Nahel bond is what Syl did for Kaladin, and there are other spren besides honorspren that can do it, and Alkavish had one of those. But there's no more evidence available. It also makes me wonder where the word Nahel comes from.

Fireborn

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2010, 07:25:39 AM »
Kaladin's powers aren't the only type of Surgebinding, I assume.  I'm pretty sure the different types of Surgebinding correspond to the different orders of Knights Radiant.  Windrunning, Kaladin and Szeth's powers, are just one kind, with the two kinds of Soulcasting being another.
When to live is to die, and to die is to live, does either really matter?

Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2010, 07:31:11 AM »
This came up on Theoryland recently, and I'm wondering if there's a misreading of the text involved somewhere. I'm not aware of any evidence that there were two types of Soulcasting beyond the fact that some can do it naturally and some (most) have to use fabrials, so I don't think there is any reason to believe there are different types of Surgebinding.

Fireborn

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2010, 07:34:17 AM »
Then why would it refer to Kaladin and Szeth as Windrunners, rather than Surgebinders, and yet Nohadon still refers to honorspren as part of Surgebinding?  And there are two different kinds of Soulcasting, Jasnah metions it near the end of the book.
When to live is to die, and to die is to live, does either really matter?

Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2010, 07:40:00 AM »
Then why would it refer to Kaladin and Szeth as Windrunners, rather than Surgebinders, and yet Nohadon still refers to honorspren as part of Surgebinding?  And there are two different kinds of Soulcasting, Jasnah metions it near the end of the book.

The Windrunners was the name of the Order of the Knights Radiant that Dalinar saw in his visions. He also saw the Stonewards, who appear to be Soulcasters.

And Jasnah only mentioned what I already said - she and Shallan are the only ones we know of who can Soulcast inherently. The ardents use fabrials, which is a matter of technology rather than talent.

Fireborn

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2010, 07:50:23 AM »
No, she specifically mentions a difference between the way the two of them use Soulcasting, since she doesn't seem to interact with the symbolheads like Shallan does.
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Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2010, 07:52:56 AM »
Quote? I think you are remembering it wrong.

Fireborn

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2010, 08:04:37 AM »
Page 978
Quote
"What of the creatures with the symbol heads?"  Shallan asked.  She flipped through her sketches, then held up an image of them.  "Do you see them too?  How are they related?"

Jasnah frowned, taking the image, "You see beings like this?  In Shadesmar?"

"They appear in my drawings," Shallan said.  "They're around me, Jasnah.  You don't see them?  Am I-"

Jasnah held up a hand.  "These are a type of spren, Shallan.  They are related to what you do."  She tapped the desk softly.  "Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasing ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabirals were designed, I believe.  I had assumed that you...But no, that obviously wouldn't make sense.  I see now."
Am I remembering it wrong now?
When to live is to die, and to die is to live, does either really matter?

Cheese Ninja

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2010, 09:05:35 AM »
I'm pretty sure Surgebinding as we've seen it so far has referred to just the Lashings, like Jasnah wrote about in the Ars Arcanum.  The prologue might indicate that there's a more destructive aspect to it as well.
Quote
The Windrunners were an order of the Knights Radiant, and they made use of two primary types of Surgebinding. The effects of these Surgebindings were known—colloquially among the members of the order—as the Three Lashings.
1. Basic/Reverse Lashings: "Gravitational Change/Giving an Object Gravitational Pull"
2. Full Lashing: "Binding Objects Together"
Quote
The stone ridges and mounds bore numerous scars. Some were shattered, blasted-out sections where Surgebinders had fought.
So other Orders probably had abilities categorized as "Surgebinding" as well.  And we haven't seen it specified yet that only Honorspren can create Windrunners either.

2/10 Orders of Knights Radiants possessed inherent Soulcasting ability.  Does that mean Knights from other Orders could learn to do it as well?  We haven't seen enough to know if the two Orders manifest the Soulcasting in different ways.  Maybe Jasnah goes straight to Shadesmar without having to volunteer a truth about herself like Shallan does, but if the effects are the same, should we really categorize them as different types of Soulcasting? Or there's an easier way to Soulcast than going to Shadesmar every time, otherwise I don't think Jasnah would be so blase about using it when she runs out of ink or needs a paperweight.

Morsker

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2010, 01:16:24 PM »
The biggest mystery to me is whether Surgebinders can learn gravity and adhesion (and whatever the other surges are) as powers, or whether they have to learn the Windrunner package that comes with the Three Lashings, or one of the other packages. We know the Knights Radiant packaged the abilities up this way, and packaged it with ideology too, but the whole point of the Nohodon flashback is that there were Surgebinders and Soulcasters before it was codified into the Knights Radiant.

Terez

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Re: Spren - (Major Spoilers TWoK)
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2010, 06:16:22 PM »
Page 978
Quote
"What of the creatures with the symbol heads?"  Shallan asked.  She flipped through her sketches, then held up an image of them.  "Do you see them too?  How are they related?"

Jasnah frowned, taking the image, "You see beings like this?  In Shadesmar?"

"They appear in my drawings," Shallan said.  "They're around me, Jasnah.  You don't see them?  Am I-"

Jasnah held up a hand.  "These are a type of spren, Shallan.  They are related to what you do."  She tapped the desk softly.  "Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasing ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabirals were designed, I believe.  I had assumed that you...But no, that obviously wouldn't make sense.  I see now."
Am I remembering it wrong now?

Apparently just reading it wrong. There's nothing in that quote that says that there are two different types of Soulcasting, and there's nothing that says Jasnah doesn't also deal with these spren. She was alarmed when she thought that Shallan saw them in Shadesmar, but that's not what Shallan meant. Even Shallan can't see them really; they only show up in her drawings.

Quote from: Cheese Ninja
2/10 Orders of Knights Radiants possessed inherent Soulcasting ability.  Does that mean Knights from other Orders could learn to do it as well?

It depends on whether or not fabrial technology was in use at the time, probably. It appears as though each order of the Radiants had two abilities, and each ability was shared by two orders (hence the connections on the Double Eye chart).