Author Topic: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***  (Read 13191 times)

Melriken

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2011, 09:33:13 PM »
The person who the letter is addressed to is functionally immortal.  That doesn't mean they picked up a shard recently.  There are probably other ways to become immortal in the Cosmere.  I would actually put down money against the recipient holding a Shard.
Again yes, I had meant "the recipient needs to be someone who has recently become immortal", fifth heightening from Warbreaker grants immortality I believe (which all of the Returned have).

That said I would take the bet that the recipient does hold a shard as it is required that they be very familiar with not only the existence and power of the Shards, but also with the existence of other planes and the ability to travel to them (something that through Rayse we know the Shards can do).

happyman

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2011, 10:32:35 PM »
The person who the letter is addressed to is functionally immortal.  That doesn't mean they picked up a shard recently.  There are probably other ways to become immortal in the Cosmere.  I would actually put down money against the recipient holding a Shard.
Again yes, I had meant "the recipient needs to be someone who has recently become immortal", fifth heightening from Warbreaker grants immortality I believe (which all of the Returned have).

That said I would take the bet that the recipient does hold a shard as it is required that they be very familiar with not only the existence and power of the Shards, but also with the existence of other planes and the ability to travel to them (something that through Rayse we know the Shards can do).

Both Hoid and the Seventeenth Shard do world-jumping.  Hoid's connection to the shards is obscure, and I'd rather not have anybody in the know comment on it, but he doesn't seem like somehow who holds it the way Vin or Sazed (or even Honor) did.  The Seventeenth Shard is almost certainly not actually an actual Shard, and I doubt they have the powers of any shard, but they manage world-jumping somehow.  The Heralds don't hold any shards that we know of, but they somehow manage the trick of functional immortality, and visit other planes in the process.  Shalland went to Shadesmar, and she's not the first.  None of these things seem to require being a shardholder on the order of Odium, Cultivation, or Ruin/Preservation (e.g. Sazed).

More importantly, though, we still have no concept of the back-story behind Adonalsium.  Ati, Leras, Bavadin, and Rayse were all people before they took the powers, and they held them for immensely long periods of time.  Hoid is apparently keeping something very close to him that needs guarding, and we don't know what it is.  There are things involved that we have no concept of.  It seems to me that the recipient of the letter must have been there when Adonalsium shattered, or at least was involved personally with the people involved, but did not gain a shard himself.  Otherwise the whole tone of the letter seems off.
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zas678

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2011, 10:49:39 PM »
The person who the letter is addressed to is functionally immortal.  That doesn't mean they picked up a shard recently.  There are probably other ways to become immortal in the Cosmere.  I would actually put down money against the recipient holding a Shard.
Again yes, I had meant "the recipient needs to be someone who has recently become immortal", fifth heightening from Warbreaker grants immortality I believe (which all of the Returned have).

That said I would take the bet that the recipient does hold a shard as it is required that they be very familiar with not only the existence and power of the Shards, but also with the existence of other planes and the ability to travel to them (something that through Rayse we know the Shards can do).

Both Hoid and the Seventeenth Shard do world-jumping.  Hoid's connection to the shards is obscure, and I'd rather not have anybody in the know comment on it, but he doesn't seem like somehow who holds it the way Vin or Sazed (or even Honor) did.  The Seventeenth Shard is almost certainly not actually an actual Shard, and I doubt they have the powers of any shard, but they manage world-jumping somehow.  The Heralds don't hold any shards that we know of, but they somehow manage the trick of functional immortality, and visit other planes in the process.  Shalland went to Shadesmar, and she's not the first.  None of these things seem to require being a shardholder on the order of Odium, Cultivation, or Ruin/Preservation (e.g. Sazed).

More importantly, though, we still have no concept of the back-story behind Adonalsium.  Ati, Leras, Bavadin, and Rayse were all people before they took the powers, and they held them for immensely long periods of time.  Hoid is apparently keeping something very close to him that needs guarding, and we don't know what it is.  There are things involved that we have no concept of.  It seems to me that the recipient of the letter must have been there when Adonalsium shattered, or at least was involved personally with the people involved, but did not gain a shard himself.  Otherwise the whole tone of the letter seems off.

Don't forget that Hoid was there when Adonalsium shattered. (Which some people thought meant that Hoid may have caused Adonalsium to shatter)
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Melriken

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2011, 09:21:05 AM »
It seems to me that the recipient of the letter must have been there when Adonalsium shattered, or at least was involved personally with the people involved, but did not gain a shard himself.  Otherwise the whole tone of the letter seems off.
While that is possible, I read the first part to say that the person the letter is to was not immortal when Hoid first met them, and recently became immortal (followed shortly by a falling out between them, this letter marking the first real communication between then and now.

12 - Old Friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.

I would GUESS the recipient has been immortal for 300 years or less.

And as I mentioned above, Immortality does not require a shard, nor does planet hopping, or knowledge of the Shards.  Hoid manages all these (and may or may not have a shard), several members of 'The Crew' knew and/or know about the Shards, and there are some people known to not be shardholders who have planet hopped.

However when you put it all together it IMPLIES a shardholder, but you are correct, it doesn't require one.  I just think it likely enough that I would take the bet if someone offered.

happyman

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2011, 02:38:07 AM »
Well, then, we can leave it that, or make an actual bet.  Before we do, though, I would like to point out that we have never seen long-time shardholders refer to each other by their personal names, but Hoid expects the recipient to know the people, not function, behind the Shards.  Also, addressing the recipient as "you old reptile" points me towards an unexpected type of recipient-I suspect that form of address is not a figure of speach.
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Meetshield

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2011, 04:45:31 AM »
I'm not at all versed on the mythology like those who are discussing here.  I have however read all the books.

There is a lot of shard related symbology in TWOK.  Might it be possible that it is somewhat centrally located to the Cosmere.  Possibly it having 3 shards would indicate that it may be special in relation to the other worlds.

Shard Blades / Shard Plate / Heralds / Hoit playing a larger role in the story than normal.  The general morality of the way of kings is less gritty than the previous books.  The characters seem to have a better sense of the history and spiritual world around them.

In the other "2nd generation" worlds are simpler, the characters and story is focused on a more direct and physical threat.  TWOK seems to be a setting stage for something larger.

A desolation that has repeated, heros that return.

Help me out maybe i'm way off track here.

zas678

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2011, 05:13:33 AM »
I think that we will be able to get a lot deeper with WoK than we have with any of the other books, simply because of their giant scope. I think that is also a big reason why there isn't such a primary goal in WoK as there have been in the other books, because it is setting the stage for this giant story.

I also think that they don't have as good of a grasp as we might think. After all, they think the Heralds saved them, the Radiants were corrupt and charlatans. Instead, the Heralds abandoned them, and the Radiants were at least trying to do good, and their magic was very real indeed.

PS, for some more basic info on the Cosmere, look here

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happyman

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2011, 05:26:25 PM »
Actually, I'm of the impression that Rosharians have a worse view of history than their other Cosmere counterparts.

The other worlds have a knowledge of what happened in their easily accessible past that makes sense and fits what we know.  In Mistborn, despite TLR, knowledge of the countries and places before his ascension persisted, and they sound perfectly human.  The world was apparently perfectly normal (by our standards) before, and most real historians managed to find that out.

In Warbreaker, we have different groups arguing over the causes of events in their recent past due to their various biases, but the broad details are generally agreed upon (very much like the real world, actually).  The first returned is an almost mythological person, but he undoubtedly existed.  Knowledge of other nations and their achievements was apparently common knowledge among scholars, otherwise Hoid would not have been so free with what he knew (and it may be where he got the info from.)

Elantris also knows what happened up to a point, as far as I can tell.  There is very little evidence of Shard-level meddling occurring within human history as we typically understand it.  If there was, it was very subtle, rather like Ruin's influence during tLR's reign.  Maybe Shard's were related to the Reod, maybe not.  My inclination is that they weren't.

These are all rather like the real world.  By and large, we know what happened, although we very seldom know exactly why it happened.  Very few of the worlds have access to the overarching cosmology, but this overarching cosmology impacts most of the stories only indirectly.

Roshar, on the other hand, is an enigma.  It knows about Shademar, it has in many ways more advanced magic than the other worlds, and yet it's history is a ferocious snarl of mythology, what may be misinformation, and the like.  It's ecosystem is just plain bizarre, and it seems clear that the effects of the Shards are much more prominent than on the other Shardworlds.  Odd.  Something is totally up with it.
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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2011, 09:26:11 AM »
While you overall write-up is sound, happyman, I should mention that it is a popular and credible theory that the Reod was caused by Rayse (or was it Reyse?) when he killed Aona.  A minor detail, but every piece of knowledge is valuable.
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andygal

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2011, 09:28:52 AM »
Rayse is the correct spelling.

Also, in relation to the topic of discussion it does seem that the Rosharians are more cosmere-aware then the people of other worlds (Jasnah mentions the three realms in a way that suggests they may be wildly known to scholars and uses the term "cosmere", one of the epigraphs mentions Honor, which suggests that they at one point were aware of  the proper name of that Shard), but at the same time they seem very muddled about their own history. 

And for what it's worth, Brandon has said that TSA is *not* going to tell the overarching story of the cosmere, that will be another series.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 09:34:56 AM by andygal »

happyman

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2011, 02:43:41 PM »
While you overall write-up is sound, happyman, I should mention that it is a popular and credible theory that the Reod was caused by Rayse (or was it Reyse?) when he killed Aona.  A minor detail, but every piece of knowledge is valuable.

Yes.  I know about that theory, but don't consider nearly as likely as a lot of people do.  I am perfectly fine with Elantris being the way the world would be after a long period of neglect caused by the Shard's deaths.  The events of Elantris would just be a side-effect of the world going its own way with no guidance at all.
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OrangePenguin

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2011, 12:41:03 AM »
I have been thinking about the implications of a universal cosmere with a known start date. That of when Adonalsium broke apart into the shards.

This being the case it would be thought that there would be a universal progression of technology within limits. This at first seems to be the case as all of the books are set in an age with medieval/Renaissance style weapons etc.

However it is stated in the Mistborn Trilogy that when The Lord Ruler took power that world was already at this level of technology and The Lord Ruler kept it from advancing.

So if that is the case why hasn't technology advanced to a point past the Mistborn Trilogy on the other worlds?

One thought would be that the Mistborn Trilogy happens chronologically later than the other books. Another thought is that these are books and Brandon Sanderson enjoys righting in a Medieval/Renaissance setting.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 02:31:05 AM by OrangePenguin »

andygal

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2011, 01:49:21 AM »
there are lots of factors that can affect technological development. Add that to the fact that these setting have magic and that's another thing that affects the development of technology.

The Mistborn trilogy takes place before Warbreaker and Wok but after Elantris.

Also in Elantris and WoK magic has been used to provide some of the things that technology provides in the real world, you have rapid communications, via Seons in Elantris and spanreeds in WoK, you have fabrials used for heating, and infused gemstones used for lighting in WoK. So in some sense,these worlds don't need technology as we understand it.

Scadriel (the planet that Mistborn takes place on) developed and will develop again (judging by the information we have on Alloy of Law) more advanced technology then some of the other worlds because their magic is less-well suited to replacing technology then that one other worlds.

OrangePenguin

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2011, 02:34:57 AM »
Another thought I had is that in Warbreaker (Which I am currenlty about half way through) they use voice to "awaken" things. It is stated at some point(sorry I dont have the exact reference) that the commands must be stated in a clear and understandable way.

This being the case it would seem the language that is being spoken is important as well as how it is being said. If the mumbling the words screws up the command then would not the command being spoken in another language do so aswell?

If that is true than the language must not have changed since the worlds creation by its shardholder/s. So is the language being spoken in Warbreaker the same as the Dawnchant from The Way of Kings?

One would think the shardholders would have spoken the same language. Atleast initially.

happyman

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Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2011, 02:38:49 PM »
Another thought I had is that in Warbreaker (Which I am currenlty about half way through) they use voice to "awaken" things. It is stated at some point(sorry I dont have the exact reference) that the commands must be stated in a clear and understandable way.

This being the case it would seem the language that is being spoken is important as well as how it is being said. If the mumbling the words screws up the command then would not the command being spoken in another language do so aswell?

If that is true than the language must not have changed since the worlds creation by its shardholder/s. So is the language being spoken in Warbreaker the same as the Dawnchant from The Way of Kings?

One would think the shardholders would have spoken the same language. Atleast initially.

My response includes very minor spoilers if you're only half way through.  Nothing really important, though.

It's explained later that the commands must be clearly spoken and coherent.  They must also be in the native language of the Awakener.  Nobody knows why, but it suggests that the connection of the spoken words with the intent of the Awakener is what really matters; the language itself is not special.
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