Author Topic: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris  (Read 2538 times)

ROSHtafARian

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Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« on: September 12, 2010, 03:24:57 AM »
Okay I think the spoiler warning should be self-explanatory, but yeah.  Leave now if you haven't read both books.

Anyways, we know from the epigraphs that Rayse (who I think most of us are assuming to be Odium) killed Aona and Skai, the Shardholders on Elantris, and then proceeded to Splinter their power so they couldn't be taken up by someone else and used to oppose him.  Now we also know, from Dalinar's visions, that Odium killed the Almighty, who seems to be his prime opponent on Roshar.  Given that Odium doesn't seem content to just kill Shards he views as a threat, but Splinter them so a successor can't inherit them and use them against him either, I think its a definite possibility that Odium Splintered the Almighty's Shard after killing him.  After all, even though its only the first book, there's nothing to indicate yet that the Stormlight Archives will involve any single character seeking or holding the Almighty's Shard to oppose Odium...but we have heard an awful lot about 'Uniting them.'  Now, we don't know WHEN in the timeline Odium killed the Almighty but we do know that while the Almighty wasn't as good at seeing the future as others like Cultivation, he did have some ability to see the future...the closer the events were to him, the clearer he could see them.  So point is...we don't know that he was actually even still around at the time of the events Dalinar saw in his visions.  The betrayal of the Radiants, etc.  Just that he'd seen them, either as a personal witness, or in visions.

So basically, what I’m proposing is…what if Odium killed the Almighty BEFORE the founding of the Ten Orders and the Knights Radiant?  What if, similar to how he treated his possible rivals on Sel, he not only killed the Almighty, but Splintered his Shard to keep anyone else from raising it up against him?  Could the Ten Heralds and the Ten Orders hold or tap into the Ten Splinters of his power?  Think about it, Odium means hatred and disgust, essentially the worst emotions sentient beings are capable of.  Not all the Shards are supposedly paired as polar opposites, but some like Ruin and Preservation are, and unless Adonalsium was a less than great guy or force himself, and leaned towards the negative (something I find hard to believe considering Hoid, a seemingly good guy, seems to have some desire to see Adonalsium reconstituted) - then that means Odium has to have an opposite number to balance the scales, and represent all the good and best emotions and traits sentient beings are capable of.  Now I realize this is a lot of conjecture, but this is all speculation anyways, but if Odium does have an opposite number representing the best of sentient beings, the Almighty is are best bet for being that Shard, given his power, opposition to Odium, and the fact that both of them seemed to make Roshar their home.

And what are the Ten Orders of the Knights Radiant?  Well we don’t know all of them, but we do know they’re dedicated to the protection of humanity and represent positive ideals.  At least one of them, the Windrunners, is dedicated to the pursuit of Honor.  Another of them, the Soulcasters, seems to have some relation to Truth given the emphasis Truth is given in the book from Szeth the Truthless to the unknown (Truthspren?) requiring a Truth from Shallan…perhaps Soulcasting requires a personal Truth be exchanged each time one changes the True nature of another object?  If Honor and Truth or Honesty are two of the Ten Orders….might the Ten Orders each hold or be powered by one of the most positive traits beings are capable of?  And thus make up Ten Splinters of a Shard that embodies all the best traits in creation?  The Dawnshards the Almighty speaks of could be the actual Splinters, or the Splinters could be the Dawnblades of the Ten Heralds, as we know they’re different from actual Shardblades.  Regardless, if any of my theory is true, its most likely that the Ten Heralds or that which powers them is the individual Splinters which they then in turn pass down to the individual Order of Radiants that they correspond to. 

Unite them then….unite the high princes perhaps, or unite humanity, or unite humanity and the parshendi…or unite the Ten Orders, the Ten Splinters and recreate the power of the Almighty’s Shard as close as possible?

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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 06:04:34 AM »
See, I took the Splinters of Aona to be the Seons and the Splinters of Skai to be the Skaze. Also, I don't think you're able to take up the power of a splintered Shard.

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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 06:27:19 AM »
See, I took the Splinters of Aona to be the Seons and the Splinters of Skai to be the Skaze. Also, I don't think you're able to take up the power of a splintered Shard.
I like this theory.  To take it one step further - could the Spren be Splinters of the Almighty?  Notice that there aren't any spren in the prelude, and spren are associated with each order of Knight Radiant (aligning nicely with ROSHtafARian's theory).

Also worth noting - The shardblades and the shardplate.  What are they shards of?  If ROSH is right, then they could be splinters of the Almighty's power.  But what if they aren't?

ROSH, you are definitely right about one thing.  We have no clue what Dalinar is supposed to unite.  It could be the high princes, it could be humanity and the parshendi, it could be the Knights Radiant, it could be the shard blades and the shard plate, it could be splinters of the Almighty's power.  Why, it could even be the Shards of Adonalsium! (although I highly doubt that)
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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 08:52:51 AM »
The one thing i would say is that the visions take place after periods of the knights radient doing stuff. And the almighty talks to dalinar about these things in the recording. Unless the almighty could see the future and record "into" the futre he was not dead during the times the recordings were made. Cool theory though...
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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2010, 12:35:38 AM »
See, I took the Splinters of Aona to be the Seons and the Splinters of Skai to be the Skaze. Also, I don't think you're able to take up the power of a splintered Shard.
I like this theory.  To take it one step further - could the Spren be Splinters of the Almighty?  Notice that there aren't any spren in the prelude, and spren are associated with each order of Knight Radiant (aligning nicely with ROSHtafARian's theory).

Also worth noting - The shardblades and the shardplate.  What are they shards of?  If ROSH is right, then they could be splinters of the Almighty's power.  But what if they aren't?

...They are? I didn't know spren were associated with each order. Certainly makes sense considering Syl and the Surgebinders. But remember, Syl doesn't like how Shardblades feel. That's strong evidence, in my opinion, that the Shardblades are of a different Shard than spren.

Very interesting theory, for sure.
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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 01:16:34 AM »
The Spren aren't individually associated with a given order (at least not yet). We know that Honorspren are capable of making a person a Radiant (or more specifically a windrunner) and that's about it. We also know that other spren are capable of making men Radiants, but not what kinds, or whether it matters what type of spren a person bonds with (could you become a Radiant by constantly being drunk, and thus attracting the spren that scholar discovered? Hmmmmm).
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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 03:06:38 PM »
The one thing i would say is that the visions take place after periods of the knights radient doing stuff. And the almighty talks to dalinar about these things in the recording. Unless the almighty could see the future and record "into" the futre he was not dead during the times the recordings were made. Cool theory though...

Ah, but he could see into the future.  It's one of the documented abilities Shardbearers seem to pick up.  Preservation did it (it's where the Kandra prophecies come from, and presumably why Preservation won in the end), and at the end of tWoK, the Almighty says outright that he can see the future as well, although it's not perfect, and Cultivation was better at it.

Given the fact that Atium gives humans the ability to see a little distance into the future, it makes sense to me that having the full power of a shard behind you would extend this ability enormously, but with the same basic restrictions build in (e.g. another being with the same power can disrupt your ability).  Shard's fighting each other would then be like Atium users fighting each other writ very large (and on enormous timescales.)  They are balanced with each other, but everybody else in the nearby vicinity is predictable and gets used like pawns.
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Salkara

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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 08:28:10 PM »
The one thing i would say is that the visions take place after periods of the knights radient doing stuff. And the almighty talks to dalinar about these things in the recording. Unless the almighty could see the future and record "into" the futre he was not dead during the times the recordings were made. Cool theory though...

Ah, but he could see into the future.  It's one of the documented abilities Shardbearers seem to pick up.  Preservation did it (it's where the Kandra prophecies come from, and presumably why Preservation won in the end), and at the end of tWoK, the Almighty says outright that he can see the future as well, although it's not perfect, and Cultivation was better at it.

Given the fact that Atium gives humans the ability to see a little distance into the future, it makes sense to me that having the full power of a shard behind you would extend this ability enormously, but with the same basic restrictions build in (e.g. another being with the same power can disrupt your ability).  Shard's fighting each other would then be like Atium users fighting each other writ very large (and on enormous timescales.)  They are balanced with each other, but everybody else in the nearby vicinity is predictable and gets used like pawns.

I like this idea. It's like the Shardholders are playing a game of chess against each other, and what really matters is how many moves in the future you can predict. It's like Kasparov vs. Deep Blue.

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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2010, 03:07:10 PM »
The one thing i would say is that the visions take place after periods of the knights radient doing stuff. And the almighty talks to dalinar about these things in the recording. Unless the almighty could see the future and record "into" the futre he was not dead during the times the recordings were made. Cool theory though...

Ah, but he could see into the future.  It's one of the documented abilities Shardbearers seem to pick up.  Preservation did it (it's where the Kandra prophecies come from, and presumably why Preservation won in the end), and at the end of tWoK, the Almighty says outright that he can see the future as well, although it's not perfect, and Cultivation was better at it.

Given the fact that Atium gives humans the ability to see a little distance into the future, it makes sense to me that having the full power of a shard behind you would extend this ability enormously, but with the same basic restrictions build in (e.g. another being with the same power can disrupt your ability).  Shard's fighting each other would then be like Atium users fighting each other writ very large (and on enormous timescales.)  They are balanced with each other, but everybody else in the nearby vicinity is predictable and gets used like pawns.

I like this idea. It's like the Shardholders are playing a game of chess against each other, and what really matters is how many moves in the future you can predict. It's like Kasparov vs. Deep Blue.

And sometimes sacrifices have to be made to gain a strategic advantage.  Yes, it's a lot like chess, except chess is probably way too simple for the game being played here.  Unfortunately, most humans end up being pawns.  Magic users tend to be something like rooks, I would say.  Much more powerful than average, but also targets.
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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2010, 01:59:22 AM »
So basically, what I’m proposing is…what if Odium killed the Almighty BEFORE the founding of the Ten Orders and the Knights Radiant? 

I don't think the Almighty was killed before founding the Ten Orders. In the last vision the Almighty says that everything that has been shown he had seen himself (implying that he was alive). This includes numerous visions of the Knights Radiant. The earlier visions were also a lot clearer, with specific people and events.

The last vision, however, was what he SUSPECTED would happen, using his limited vision of the future. Thus the image was not so clear, just a city and an incoming wall of shadow. So I think that the Almighty was killed maybe during  Aharietiam (the last desolation), which would explain why there hadn't been a desolation since then.
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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2010, 07:48:17 PM »
So basically, what I’m proposing is…what if Odium killed the Almighty BEFORE the founding of the Ten Orders and the Knights Radiant? 

I don't think the Almighty was killed before founding the Ten Orders. In the last vision the Almighty says that everything that has been shown he had seen himself (implying that he was alive). This includes numerous visions of the Knights Radiant. The earlier visions were also a lot clearer, with specific people and events.

The last vision, however, was what he SUSPECTED would happen, using his limited vision of the future. Thus the image was not so clear, just a city and an incoming wall of shadow. So I think that the Almighty was killed maybe during  Aharietiam (the last desolation), which would explain why there hadn't been a desolation since then.

When dealing with Beings capable of seeing the future, it's hard to say whether the things he "saw" himself were things he was present to see, or simply foretellings that he was absolutely certain of---parts of the mirror that were crystal clear, to extend his analogy.

There is certainly something odd about the visions, though.  The way the humans and other creatures could react to Dalinar's changes but the Almighty couldn't.  That's gotta be important.  I don't know what it means, but it *is* important.
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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2010, 08:39:21 PM »
So basically, what I’m proposing is…what if Odium killed the Almighty BEFORE the founding of the Ten Orders and the Knights Radiant? 

I don't think the Almighty was killed before founding the Ten Orders. In the last vision the Almighty says that everything that has been shown he had seen himself (implying that he was alive). This includes numerous visions of the Knights Radiant. The earlier visions were also a lot clearer, with specific people and events.

The last vision, however, was what he SUSPECTED would happen, using his limited vision of the future. Thus the image was not so clear, just a city and an incoming wall of shadow. So I think that the Almighty was killed maybe during  Aharietiam (the last desolation), which would explain why there hadn't been a desolation since then.

When dealing with Beings capable of seeing the future, it's hard to say whether the things he "saw" himself were things he was present to see, or simply foretellings that he was absolutely certain of---parts of the mirror that were crystal clear, to extend his analogy.

There is certainly something odd about the visions, though.  The way the humans and other creatures could react to Dalinar's changes but the Almighty couldn't.  That's gotta be important.  I don't know what it means, but it *is* important.

IIRC, the exact way he said it made it sound as if he were actually there, not just saw it in some capacity, but i'm going from memory here, which is always dangerous.

my theory about the visions, though, goes something like this.

Basically, the almighty was able to impart some basic knowledge and personality to what are essentially "bots" in a "virtual simulation" of sorts (using metaphors here to make sense out of it). However, he couldn't impart all of his knowledge to anything (a god can hold a lot) and he was just leaving messages, so he couldn't write open-ended messages that would "fill in the blanks" as the receiver got the message.

could you become a Radiant by constantly being drunk, and thus attracting the spren that scholar discovered? Hmmmmm.

ah, yes. The AleDrinkers division of the radiants! These are kinda the "frat-boys" of the bunch.
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happyman

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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2010, 10:30:00 PM »
So basically, what I’m proposing is…what if Odium killed the Almighty BEFORE the founding of the Ten Orders and the Knights Radiant? 

I don't think the Almighty was killed before founding the Ten Orders. In the last vision the Almighty says that everything that has been shown he had seen himself (implying that he was alive). This includes numerous visions of the Knights Radiant. The earlier visions were also a lot clearer, with specific people and events.

The last vision, however, was what he SUSPECTED would happen, using his limited vision of the future. Thus the image was not so clear, just a city and an incoming wall of shadow. So I think that the Almighty was killed maybe during  Aharietiam (the last desolation), which would explain why there hadn't been a desolation since then.

When dealing with Beings capable of seeing the future, it's hard to say whether the things he "saw" himself were things he was present to see, or simply foretellings that he was absolutely certain of---parts of the mirror that were crystal clear, to extend his analogy.

There is certainly something odd about the visions, though.  The way the humans and other creatures could react to Dalinar's changes but the Almighty couldn't.  That's gotta be important.  I don't know what it means, but it *is* important.

IIRC, the exact way he said it made it sound as if he were actually there, not just saw it in some capacity, but i'm going from memory here, which is always dangerous.

my theory about the visions, though, goes something like this.

Basically, the almighty was able to impart some basic knowledge and personality to what are essentially "bots" in a "virtual simulation" of sorts (using metaphors here to make sense out of it). However, he couldn't impart all of his knowledge to anything (a god can hold a lot) and he was just leaving messages, so he couldn't write open-ended messages that would "fill in the blanks" as the receiver got the message.

could you become a Radiant by constantly being drunk, and thus attracting the spren that scholar discovered? Hmmmmm.

ah, yes. The AleDrinkers division of the radiants! These are kinda the "frat-boys" of the bunch.

Except---the other humans he saw *interacted* with him.  His talk with that old king made that *very* clear.  It's only the voice of the almighty that couldn't respond.  I just don't understand the reason for the distinction.  Yet.  I've no doubt Brandon will come through.
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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2010, 10:42:00 PM »
So basically, what I’m proposing is…what if Odium killed the Almighty BEFORE the founding of the Ten Orders and the Knights Radiant? 

I don't think the Almighty was killed before founding the Ten Orders. In the last vision the Almighty says that everything that has been shown he had seen himself (implying that he was alive). This includes numerous visions of the Knights Radiant. The earlier visions were also a lot clearer, with specific people and events.

The last vision, however, was what he SUSPECTED would happen, using his limited vision of the future. Thus the image was not so clear, just a city and an incoming wall of shadow. So I think that the Almighty was killed maybe during  Aharietiam (the last desolation), which would explain why there hadn't been a desolation since then.

When dealing with Beings capable of seeing the future, it's hard to say whether the things he "saw" himself were things he was present to see, or simply foretellings that he was absolutely certain of---parts of the mirror that were crystal clear, to extend his analogy.

There is certainly something odd about the visions, though.  The way the humans and other creatures could react to Dalinar's changes but the Almighty couldn't.  That's gotta be important.  I don't know what it means, but it *is* important.

IIRC, the exact way he said it made it sound as if he were actually there, not just saw it in some capacity, but i'm going from memory here, which is always dangerous.

my theory about the visions, though, goes something like this.

Basically, the almighty was able to impart some basic knowledge and personality to what are essentially "bots" in a "virtual simulation" of sorts (using metaphors here to make sense out of it). However, he couldn't impart all of his knowledge to anything (a god can hold a lot) and he was just leaving messages, so he couldn't write open-ended messages that would "fill in the blanks" as the receiver got the message.

could you become a Radiant by constantly being drunk, and thus attracting the spren that scholar discovered? Hmmmmm.

ah, yes. The AleDrinkers division of the radiants! These are kinda the "frat-boys" of the bunch.

Except---the other humans he saw *interacted* with him.  His talk with that old king made that *very* clear.  It's only the voice of the almighty that couldn't respond.  I just don't understand the reason for the distinction.  Yet.  I've no doubt Brandon will come through.

Right. Like i said, he gave the actual people of the reenactment a bit of freedom in what they can do as far as interacting with him, like a simulation set up for him. Where as the almighty's messages are just that, messages that he himself recorded, as opposed to being interactive "NPC's" like in a video game. I would presume it would be easier for him to create a virtual representation of and knowledge of mortal beings as opposed to doing the same with himself (a god)
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Re: Splinters - SPOILERS for TWoK and Elantris
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 02:54:15 PM »
So basically, what I’m proposing is…what if Odium killed the Almighty BEFORE the founding of the Ten Orders and the Knights Radiant? 

I don't think the Almighty was killed before founding the Ten Orders. In the last vision the Almighty says that everything that has been shown he had seen himself (implying that he was alive). This includes numerous visions of the Knights Radiant. The earlier visions were also a lot clearer, with specific people and events.

The last vision, however, was what he SUSPECTED would happen, using his limited vision of the future. Thus the image was not so clear, just a city and an incoming wall of shadow. So I think that the Almighty was killed maybe during  Aharietiam (the last desolation), which would explain why there hadn't been a desolation since then.

When dealing with Beings capable of seeing the future, it's hard to say whether the things he "saw" himself were things he was present to see, or simply foretellings that he was absolutely certain of---parts of the mirror that were crystal clear, to extend his analogy.

There is certainly something odd about the visions, though.  The way the humans and other creatures could react to Dalinar's changes but the Almighty couldn't.  That's gotta be important.  I don't know what it means, but it *is* important.

IIRC, the exact way he said it made it sound as if he were actually there, not just saw it in some capacity, but i'm going from memory here, which is always dangerous.

my theory about the visions, though, goes something like this.

Basically, the almighty was able to impart some basic knowledge and personality to what are essentially "bots" in a "virtual simulation" of sorts (using metaphors here to make sense out of it). However, he couldn't impart all of his knowledge to anything (a god can hold a lot) and he was just leaving messages, so he couldn't write open-ended messages that would "fill in the blanks" as the receiver got the message.

could you become a Radiant by constantly being drunk, and thus attracting the spren that scholar discovered? Hmmmmm.

ah, yes. The AleDrinkers division of the radiants! These are kinda the "frat-boys" of the bunch.

Except---the other humans he saw *interacted* with him.  His talk with that old king made that *very* clear.  It's only the voice of the almighty that couldn't respond.  I just don't understand the reason for the distinction.  Yet.  I've no doubt Brandon will come through.

Right. Like i said, he gave the actual people of the reenactment a bit of freedom in what they can do as far as interacting with him, like a simulation set up for him. Where as the almighty's messages are just that, messages that he himself recorded, as opposed to being interactive "NPC's" like in a video game. I would presume it would be easier for him to create a virtual representation of and knowledge of mortal beings as opposed to doing the same with himself (a god)

And he can't create an Avatar of himself that is enormously stupider than he, himself, is, but is slightly capable of understanding context and meaning like the other people in the vision were?  Why not?

The best answer I have for this is that the memories are kind of like Shallan's pictures:  They take an event that actually occurred and store a small part of the subjects soul in it, but cannot actually change the person or the situation.  Maybe they're related magics.  (And if you don't think Shallan's pictures are magical, then I doubt you have ever tried to paint or draw.  Painting and drawing do not work like that.)

It's still a little weird, though.  You'd think a god would have more control over things like that.
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