Author Topic: *Spoilers* General Shard List  (Read 21552 times)

happyman

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2010, 08:21:23 PM »
There's no way the letter is written to or from Sazed, since the addressee is called "old friend".

Why not?  We know Mistborn happened before WoK, presumably a long time ago.  Old is relative and Hoid could have been friends with Sazed for awhile.

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And Hoid did help out all of Sazeds native people, so it would make sense that they would become friends, but it doesnt explain why sazed is dissapointed in Hoid, or why he has people chasing him.

Agreed.  But we really have no idea why anyone would be disappointed in Hoid.

Much more important than these arguments is that the addressee apparently knew the Shardholder's personally.  Hoid's letter is intimate and focusses on personalities to make its most important arguments.  This is not a letter to somebody who has to be briefed on the situation.  None of this fits Sazed, who would have to be told as somebody who came onto the schene very late.
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Morsker

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2010, 09:15:24 PM »
I expect Hoid's old friend is someone from the Dragonsteel universe that we haven't met, since we know Hoid's origin is there and hasn't been told yet. Plus he calls the person "you old reptile" which can't be Sazed. Bavarian is probably from there too. There have only been 6 Cosmere books, and there are going to be a few dozen, right? So at this point I expect more teasers than explanation, otherwise there'll be nothing left to tell later.

Salkara

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2010, 09:32:39 PM »
When I claimed that there was another Shard involved, it was based on my reading of the statement

"3 of 16 once ruled, but now the Broken One reigns."

My interpretation of this was that there were three Shards on Roshar, all 3 of which were generally benign (or at least natural for Roshar) and operated within their sphere of influence, doing Shard things.  Then, just like on Sel, Odium (the Broken One) showed up and began wreaking havoc with their system, resulting in the desolations and the general war that is apparently ongoing.

Part of this is that I don't want Odium to be Ruin part deuce.  Ruin was a natural part of Scadriel, even if he and Preservation had to be kept carefully balanced for the world to be amicable.  Ruin's power, held by Sazed, is vital to keep Scadriel running.  Odium is being built up as something else altogether, as somebody who is personally evil, not just driven to it by his very nature.

Another part of that is that it makes the story much deeper, and gives us many more delicious magic systems.

So I don't have a lot of information to back this idea up, but I haven't seen much against it either.  If there are any interviews *ahem* which might shed light on it, I might be willing to read them, though.

The largest evidence I see for 3 shards instead of 4 shards (without reference to interviews) is that there are 3 magic systems on Roshar: Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and the Old Magic. In each of Brandon's books, there has been one magic system for each Shard on the planet. Allomancy came from Preservation, Hemalurgy from Ruin, AonDor from Aona, and Biochroma from Endowment. Presumably the Dakhor magics came from Skai. The only magic system that doesn't fit with this is Feruchemy because it's a bit from Preservation (uses metals in a similar manner as Allomancy) and a bit from Ruin (has diminishing returns like Hemalurgy). Aside from that, it's one magic system for each Shard.

Brandon has said that the Stormlight Archives will have 30 magic systems *depending on how you count*. Here's how I take that statement: for each Shard, there are ten types of magic, one for each of the 10 Essences. Surgebinding relates to the Almighty, and a only a few have been named so far (Windrunners, Stonewardens, Soulcasters, and possibly Dustbringers). I don't recall any names given of Voidbinding (for Odium) or Old Magic (for Cultivation) abilities, but we've also not seen any concrete examples of these.

As for interviews, I'm fairly sure Brandon has said there are 3 shards in play on Roshar, but I can't recall where I saw that. Even without that, I'm fairly sure the the 3 shards x 10 Essences = 30 Magic Systems theory is correct.

Stormblessed

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #78 on: October 03, 2010, 01:29:18 AM »
I think the ten essences only applies to the power of 1 shard - probably the Almighty. There are a lot more magic systems in this book then have yet been talked about, so it is possible for there to be another shard. The Parshendi don't seem very hateful yet, maybe there power doesn't originally come from Odium.
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Salkara

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #79 on: October 03, 2010, 05:17:09 PM »
I think the ten essences only applies to the power of 1 shard - probably the Almighty. There are a lot more magic systems in this book then have yet been talked about, so it is possible for there to be another shard. The Parshendi don't seem very hateful yet, maybe there power doesn't originally come from Odium.

Or perhaps the Parshendi are not actually the Voidbringers? That possibility I'm rooting for because I think we'll be much more likely to have a Parshendi shardbearer focus book if they're not the Voidbringers.

As for the Essences, the way I read the notes on Voidbinding in the Ars Arcanum was that it used the Essences as well, just in different ways than Surgebinding. I'd look up the passage, but I'm about 100 miles away from my copy at the moment.

Stormblessed

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2010, 02:09:50 AM »
I think the ten essences only applies to the power of 1 shard - probably the Almighty. There are a lot more magic systems in this book then have yet been talked about, so it is possible for there to be another shard. The Parshendi don't seem very hateful yet, maybe there power doesn't originally come from Odium.

Or perhaps the Parshendi are not actually the Voidbringers? That possibility I'm rooting for because I think we'll be much more likely to have a Parshendi shardbearer focus book if they're not the Voidbringers.

As for the Essences, the way I read the notes on Voidbinding in the Ars Arcanum was that it used the Essences as well, just in different ways than Surgebinding. I'd look up the passage, but I'm about 100 miles away from my copy at the moment.

Jasnah says in the Ars Arcanum that Voidbinding may use these ten essences, but she is not certain. They may be similar but from something different.
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #81 on: October 04, 2010, 05:17:31 PM »
Salkara you left out several magic systems the biggest of which being Feruchemy which is of no shard but rather the interaction of two. Meaning your evidence, while factual, is most likely misinterpreted due to the oversight of certain details.
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happyman

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2010, 06:26:48 PM »
I have to agree with Patriotic Kaz that just counting the number of magic systems isn't enough to tell us about the number of shards.  How you count could can become complicated very quickly (is Allomancy one magic system, or 16?  Or 4, one for each type of effect?).  Interactions between shards can create magic systems.  These last two points make the number of magic systems essentially moot for guessing at shard involvement.
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Pechvarry

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2010, 06:47:37 PM »
You can probably clarify some by saying "how many magic sources are there?"  This turns all of Allomancy into one thing, and only 3 systems in the Stormlight Archives (or so).  But a lot of it is still grey, especially with feruchemy.  It gets worse if you start trying to quantify Hoid's abilities, etc.

Guinevere

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2010, 12:56:23 AM »
I have to agree that the number of magic systems does not necessarily correlate to the number of shards.  Scadriel is the main example.  Two shards, three magic systems.  While I do really like the theory, I'm not sure it works in the long run.

ccstat

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #85 on: October 09, 2010, 06:07:47 AM »
Is there any confirmation that the letter is from Hoid? I read it as being from someone originally from Roshar way back when.

Stormblessed

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #86 on: October 09, 2010, 06:37:51 AM »
Is there any confirmation that the letter is from Hoid? I read it as being from someone originally from Roshar way back when.

The fact that it mentions other Cosmere planets and shards, along with the fact that the person is being followed, and we know some people (possibly Elantrians) are looking for Hoid pretty much points strongly towards Hoid writing those letters.
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ROSHtafARian

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #87 on: October 12, 2010, 04:53:37 AM »
So I was rereading Elantris, and I think I have an idea as to what Aona and Skai's shards were.  Although we know not all shards come in pairs with polar opposites, some like Ruin and Preservation do, and I think its a pretty safe bet that Aona and Skai were a pair of opposites, from Brandon's annotation that Skaze are like evil Seons, little things dropped here and there in the book about Jaddeth, and just the nature of the monks and their power.  Anyways, after rereading, I think Aona is Harmony and Skai is Discord.  Harmony fits with the nature of the Seons, the relationship between the land and the Elantrian's power, the fact that the medium through which the Elantrians use the Dor is the alphabet or language, a means of promoting harmony and unity, and the way the pool of Dor urges Elantrians to relax and let go....I'm betting that it doesn't actually kill the Elantrians, it more dissolves their corporeal form and individual identity, and their energy becomes one with the res of the Dor.  They live on as spiritual energy, part of the land, but with no further need of consciousness.  Skai, then, would be Discord, or the disruption or perversion of Harmony.  Brandon said somewhere that Odium did not cause the Reod, at least not directly, and I'm inclined to take him at face value.  I think the Reod was caused by Skai, disrupting Harmony and breaking the Elantrian's tie with the land and the Dor as part of a power play against Aona, and Odium merely seized on that opportunity to take Aona and Skai out.  We know that even polar opposite Shards can work together, as Ruin and Preservation did to create life, and I'm assuming the threat of Odium could have gotten even Aona and Skai to work together to fight him, so he waited until they were already fighting and there was no possibility of them allying. 

Stormblessed

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #88 on: October 12, 2010, 06:34:57 AM »
Brandon said somewhere that Odium did not cause the Reod, at least not directly, and I'm inclined to take him at face value.  I think the Reod was caused by Skai, disrupting Harmony and breaking the Elantrian's tie with the land and the Dor as part of a power play against Aona, and Odium merely seized on that opportunity to take Aona and Skai out.

Interesting. Odium probably tipped the scale to allow Skai to take out Aona, then while Skai was occupied to him/her out.
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molybdenum

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2010, 07:47:50 PM »
If we go back to the main shard phrase we were using before WoK, the two we've met (Endowment and the Pool in Elantris), the one we've seen the power (Skai with the Dakhor?), that leaves one we'd seen the influence of, but left, presumably Odium.

This leads to a bit of a quandary though, as if Odium had already been on Sel when Elantris occurred, then Aona and Skai are already dead. If that's the case, how can one of them be speaking to Raoden in the pool?

This leads to two theories from me:
1. The events of Elantris happened after Odium came and destroyed Skai and Aonas conciousness and splintered their shards. The splinters became the Elantrians and the Dakhor monks. The power of the shards remained in them, and the Elantrians collected what used to be the body of the shard into a pool. When one falls into this pool, it receives the general characteristics of the shard (like release), without having a specific conciousness attached to it. The earthquake occurred after Odium had already left due to simple tectonic plate movement, altering the splintered shard with no set conciousness to fix it.


2. The events of Elantris occured before Odium came. It is the conciousness of Aona that speaks to Raoden in the pool, much like the conciousness of Ruin spoke to Vin. In this case, we haven't seen the 4th shard spoken of above, because it isn't on Sel.  It is on the Warbreaker planet, and wants to take away life such as Endowment likes to give life. As a result, many of the Wars seen on the planet have been particularly bloody, like the Manyyears (or whatever it was called) War, and the war Lightsong dreamed about. We saw its influence in driving the Pahn Kahl to attept to get an Idris-Hallandren War.

Personally, the second theory makes more sense to me as far as Elantris goes, though I'm kind of taking a wild shot in the dark as far as the influence shard would go.