Author Topic: Ruin-like Odium? *spoilers*  (Read 1092 times)

Tangletalon

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Ruin-like Odium? *spoilers*
« on: September 11, 2010, 07:47:11 PM »
What if the visions are just caused by Odium the same way Ruin did so many things to get what he wanted? Then the visions are wrong and Szeth's hidden master (the one at the end of the book who is getting quotes) is, in a way, right.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 03:09:43 PM by Brenna »

Munin

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2010, 07:51:30 PM »
Personally, I can't think of a reason that Odium would want people to know he's coming.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

Kierlionn

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2010, 07:53:45 PM »
Personally, I can't think of a reason that Odium would want people to know he's coming.
I don't think that is what the OP is trying to get at, I believe he means to trick the people into doing something that he wants or will benefit him like how Ruin did.

Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2010, 07:58:19 PM »
It makes sense.

However, I think if Odium is doing that, then the world is pretty much screwed.
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Tangletalon

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2010, 08:28:02 PM »
If Ruin faked prophecies and that got him out of the Well of Ascension, the world was screwed. Oh, wait...

Munin

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2010, 08:43:35 PM »
Personally, I can't think of a reason that Odium would want people to know he's coming.
I don't think that is what the OP is trying to get at, I believe he means to trick the people into doing something that he wants or will benefit him like how Ruin did.
Yeah, but if he was trying to trick people, he'd be better off doing so in a way that didn't let them know that he was up to shenanigans.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

Tangletalon

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2010, 08:48:19 PM »
Personally, I can't think of a reason that Odium would want people to know he's coming.
I don't think that is what the OP is trying to get at, I believe he means to trick the people into doing something that he wants or will benefit him like how Ruin did.
Yeah, but if he was trying to trick people, he'd be better off doing so in a way that didn't let them know that he was up to shenanigans.
Remember, Dalinar thinks the visions are real.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 09:44:14 PM by Tangletalon »

Munin

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2010, 10:05:59 PM »
Personally, I can't think of a reason that Odium would want people to know he's coming.
I don't think that is what the OP is trying to get at, I believe he means to trick the people into doing something that he wants or will benefit him like how Ruin did.
Yeah, but if he was trying to trick people, he'd be better off doing so in a way that didn't let them know that he was up to shenanigans.
Remember, Dalinar thinks the visions are real.
That's not what I'm saying.

If Odium was trying to mislead people, he should come up with something that doesn't tell them who he is.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

ryos

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 12:27:46 AM »
I have two problems with this idea. The first is that I find it unlikely for Brandon to repeat himself in that way. I think him better than that.

The second is that it doesn't make much sense. It seems clear that Odium engineered the end of the Oathpact and has been biding his time sowing dissent among men. A united humanity is what kept repulsing his attacks in the past. Why would he want Dalinar to unite anyone?

Taravingian, on the other hand, I don't quite get. He seems to be working towards a united humanity, even if it's in a twisted, wrongheaded way. So why doesn't he want Dalinar to unite Alethkar? Him, I could buy as a servent of Odium, or at least someone who's been duped by him.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 01:25:57 AM by ryos »
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Munin

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2010, 01:22:33 AM »
Taravingian, on the other hand, I don't quite get. He seems to be working towards a united humanity, even if it's in a twisted, wrongheaded way. So why doesn't he want Dalinar to unite Alethkar? Him, I could buy as a servent of Odium, or at least someone who's been duped by him.
I think it's because Taravingian thinks that extreme measures will be required to survive, including actions that an honorable man like Dalinar wouldn't even consider.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

ROSHtafARian

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 03:32:53 AM »
Personally, I can't think of a reason that Odium would want people to know he's coming.
I don't think that is what the OP is trying to get at, I believe he means to trick the people into doing something that he wants or will benefit him like how Ruin did.
Yeah, but if he was trying to trick people, he'd be better off doing so in a way that didn't let them know that he was up to shenanigans.
Remember, Dalinar thinks the visions are real.
That's not what I'm saying.

If Odium was trying to mislead people, he should come up with something that doesn't tell them who he is.

Not necessarily.  The best lies are the ones with a grain of truth in them.  Perhaps Odium knows that given the existence of other Shards and outside knowledge sources like Hoid, its impossible to hide his existence for humanity completely, or perhaps he wants humanity to know he's coming, give them something to hate, which likely just helps him in some way.  Put simply, if I'm Odium, the most fearsome and terrible of all the Shards, I'm not all that worried about humans knowing I exist and opposing me, when I've already offed their creator...so why don't I hijack the Almighty's warning system and within the truth about Desolations and my return, tell them what to do to aid in my return to power or eventual victory, knowing they're more likely to believe me the more it looks like I'm telling them the truth?

I don't actually think this would make Odium too powerful or hard to beat either, as we know there's another Shard on Roshar who's better at seeing the future than the Almighty ever was, and has nine more books in which to make an appearance or help show humanity the truth about Odium and how to beat him.

In fact, the only thing that makes me think Odium ISN"T behind the visions, is that its too similar to what Brandon already did with Ruin in Mistborn....unless its a deliberate repetition, something along the lines of that since all the Shards used to be part of the same being or force, perhaps they all think or plot alike on some level and are likely to use similar tactics....and that itself could be a key to opposing them or predicting their next move.

happyman

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2010, 03:18:50 PM »
Personally, I can't think of a reason that Odium would want people to know he's coming.
I don't think that is what the OP is trying to get at, I believe he means to trick the people into doing something that he wants or will benefit him like how Ruin did.
Yeah, but if he was trying to trick people, he'd be better off doing so in a way that didn't let them know that he was up to shenanigans.
Remember, Dalinar thinks the visions are real.
That's not what I'm saying.

If Odium was trying to mislead people, he should come up with something that doesn't tell them who he is.

Not necessarily.  The best lies are the ones with a grain of truth in them.  Perhaps Odium knows that given the existence of other Shards and outside knowledge sources like Hoid, its impossible to hide his existence for humanity completely, or perhaps he wants humanity to know he's coming, give them something to hate, which likely just helps him in some way.  Put simply, if I'm Odium, the most fearsome and terrible of all the Shards, I'm not all that worried about humans knowing I exist and opposing me, when I've already offed their creator...so why don't I hijack the Almighty's warning system and within the truth about Desolations and my return, tell them what to do to aid in my return to power or eventual victory, knowing they're more likely to believe me the more it looks like I'm telling them the truth?

I don't actually think this would make Odium too powerful or hard to beat either, as we know there's another Shard on Roshar who's better at seeing the future than the Almighty ever was, and has nine more books in which to make an appearance or help show humanity the truth about Odium and how to beat him.

In fact, the only thing that makes me think Odium ISN"T behind the visions, is that its too similar to what Brandon already did with Ruin in Mistborn....unless its a deliberate repetition, something along the lines of that since all the Shards used to be part of the same being or force, perhaps they all think or plot alike on some level and are likely to use similar tactics....and that itself could be a key to opposing them or predicting their next move.

I don't think it's Odium giving the visions simply because letting humans be themselves would be so much more effective at wiping them out.  If Odium is the embodiment of hatred, surely unity and love is opposed to him?
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Salkara

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2010, 10:48:29 PM »
In fact, the only thing that makes me think Odium ISN"T behind the visions, is that its too similar to what Brandon already did with Ruin in Mistborn....unless its a deliberate repetition, something along the lines of that since all the Shards used to be part of the same being or force, perhaps they all think or plot alike on some level and are likely to use similar tactics....and that itself could be a key to opposing them or predicting their next move.

Brandon has been pretty explicit in stating that he wants this to be original. Mistborn was his attempt at a fantasy where the things turned out opposite of what we'd expect from fantasy. I doubt that he's recast Ruin as Odium in this series.

Castleguard

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2010, 09:41:59 AM »
I have two problems with this idea. The first is that I find it unlikely for Brandon to repeat himself in that way. I think him better than that.

The second is that it doesn't make much sense. It seems clear that Odium engineered the end of the Oathpact and has been biding his time sowing dissent among men. A united humanity is what kept repulsing his attacks in the past. Why would he want Dalinar to unite anyone?

Taravingian, on the other hand, I don't quite get. He seems to be working towards a united humanity, even if it's in a twisted, wrongheaded way. So why doesn't he want Dalinar to unite Alethkar? Him, I could buy as a servent of Odium, or at least someone who's been duped by him.

I think Taravingians idea is pretty simple. If Dalinar unites the Alethkar they will be strong but will also most likely be opposed to him. Also he is probably looking for a bigger unification not just one people but all peoples. I get the feeling that Alethkars while possible to unite with themselves would have difficulty uniting with other cultures. Taravingian is probably trying to create a situation where he can get control. Knowing him he will probably not reveal his true face for a long time. He is most likely going to hide his true nature for a while longer. It will probably seem to others that he is trying to help when in fact he is trying to gain control and power. Its really hard to say at this point where things will go for Taravingian. He may redeem himself somehow or slip further and further away into evil while trying to do what he thinks is right.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 09:43:44 AM by Castleguard »

Kykeon

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Re: Ruin-like Odium?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2010, 12:36:38 PM »
I think what Tavingian fears is the following:
Let's say Dalinar unites the high princes, closesly followed by all the voren Kingdoms.
In Taravingian's mind, a huge, stable empire like that is more likely to wage war on the rest of the civilized world, ( keyword: Crusades )therefore creating more tormoil in the long run.