Author Topic: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)  (Read 6835 times)

Andrew the Great

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2010, 09:13:56 AM »
Well, there appear to be some people from Sel (The planet Elantris takes place on) that show up in the first interlude (They're the ones who are looking for Hoid. The viewpoint is from the fisherman guy).

Aside from that, Brandon's told us that the books are all related, and we believe Shadesmar to be a large part of what relates them (for one thing, we think it's how Hoid planet-hops).

There's probably a few other things, but I really can't think right now.... sleep.....

Just had an interesting thought; Honorspren bond with people to make them surgebinders, (or windrunners if you prefer). Another type of spren (Soulspren? Truthspren perhaps?) bonds with a person allowing them to soulcast.
Now, there is a fabrial that allows you to soulcast without being bonded to a spren, so could there also be a fabrial that allows you to surgebind (or windrun, if you prefer) without being bonded to an honorspren? Perhaps this is related to the glowing glyphs on the Radiants armour, and their brightly glowing shardblades? 

I like this thought. A lot. I don't think the glyphs and shardblades glowing had much to do with fabrials. If you recall, they stopped glowing the instant the Radiants took them off. No one mentioned any sort of fabrials on the Radiants, and all of the fabrials we've seen so far have been fairly large and noticable. I'd personally say the glow is more likely to just be something the Radiants knew that made them more powerful.

I really like the idea of the fabrials that allow people to access other abilities of other orders of the Knights Radiant, though. I think it makes perfect sense, and it brings up lots of intriguing possibilities.

Also, whoever made the point about Vorinism pushing to excel at virtues in order to facilitate Spren bonding, I think that's also a fascinating idea. No real way to back it up, but it makes a lot of sense.

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VegasDev

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2010, 09:54:51 AM »
No, the wavy line-head spren are an unknown type of spren that seems to confer the ability to soulcast without a soulcaster.
Deathspren are the black, insect-like spren that people who are on the verge of death see. (Note Kaladin's viewpoints after surviving the highstorm, he sees deathspren shortly before he is given stormlight-infused spheres which bring him back from the point of death.)

Chapter 4 Epigraph: "I'm dying, aren't I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky."

Sounds like its from someone under the care of Taravangian, which happens to be where Shallan is located when she draws them.
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rjl

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2010, 10:49:04 AM »
I assumed that all of the death quotes that say "collected on..." were from people being murdered by Taravangian and his "healers".

XoVeR

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2010, 07:36:53 PM »
I assumed that all of the death quotes that say "collected on..." were from people being murdered by Taravangian and his "healers".

No they mentioned that it happens to some people on the shattered plains when they die as well and Jasnah mentioned that she is noticing it as well.

rjl

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2010, 07:54:28 PM »
I noticed some strange quotes from other deaths, but I assumed that the chapter heading ones are all from Taravangian and his.

Andrew the Great

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2010, 07:57:14 PM »
That's what I had assumed as well.

It's interesting that the one guy that Vegas quoted doesn't see the wavy-line spren until he's dying. He also apparently is going to Shadesmar as he's dying. Hmmmm.
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Erunion

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2010, 09:03:46 PM »
Hmm... Someone should collect all the death-quotes from the entire book, and put them in one place (both the "Collected on's" and the ones from random  people dieing.)

That would probably help with our theorizing.

Anyhow, interesting correlation between the wavy-headed spren and the amount of death. But I don't think they are death-spren, consider how Jasnah was able to soulcast with a fake soulcaster well before she went to study in the palanaeum.
However, I strongly believe that they have something to do with death, and truth. Consider: The only person we know much of who has attracted one of these spren is Shallan (we don't know much about Jasnah, unfortunately). These spren take you to Shadesmar (which is likely the cognitive realm. It could also be the spiritual realm though, unless Brandon said otherwise).

Now, what do we know of Shallan that would make attract these spren to her? She has a shardblade, is (or rather, was) living a lie, and she murdered her father. Unfortunately, this doesn't tell us much except perhaps the murder. Maybe these spren are attracted to killing? Unlikely, as there would be many Alethi soldiers with spren hovering around. Perhaps these spren are attracted to something else? Deep, emotional scarring? Unfortunately, we don't really know enough. I can't make heads or tails of it, really. What do you guys think?

Well, we don't know what attracts these spren, but perhaps we can find out what these spren are. There are three options that stand out, Truthspren (note how they asked for one truth to enter Shadesmar), Soulspren (they allow you to soulcast, they have something to do with death.) or Shadespren (they give you access to Shadesmar, and they aren't really visible in the physical realm, they are only visible through the cognitive realm).

Can you guys make some sense of this? I've about run out of ideas here.

Ari54

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2010, 12:51:18 AM »
as for the Spren,  if you look at the back of the book there's a table describing the 10 virtues, they're associated spren, and the kind of power that comes with it.  There's probably a very good reason Vorinism pushes people to choose a virtue and excel at it since it was more likely to attract a spren and therefore towards becoming a Radiant.

I'm going to guess that when the Radiants betrayed everyone, the Spren stopped bonding with people (or the Spren gave up on the Radiants causing them to lash out and betray everyone?).  Either way, net result, no more radiants.  Spren seem to become more aware the longer they become attached to a person (as seen by Syl) and then go back to being mindless after that.

This actually seems to be the best thing anyone's said yet.



In regards to planet hopping -- How come nobody is freaking out (like I did) when I read Shallan went to Cosmere?

Don't you think that'll be how people start planet hopping? I think it definitely has to relate in some way.

I really like the Spren Abandonment idea, that's great.

As for Shadesmar, (not the Cosmere o_O) Brandon has talked about Hoid knowing some tricks to do with it that allow him to access to all sorts of places, like for instance perhaps the Well of Ascension, but I don't think there's any hints in any of the books as to exactly how he travels between planets.

Now, what do we know of Shallan that would make attract these spren to her? She has a shardblade, is (or rather, was) living a lie, and she murdered her father. Unfortunately, this doesn't tell us much except perhaps the murder. Maybe these spren are attracted to killing? Unlikely, as there would be many Alethi soldiers with spren hovering around. Perhaps these spren are attracted to something else? Deep, emotional scarring? Unfortunately, we don't really know enough. I can't make heads or tails of it, really. What do you guys think?

Well, we don't know what attracts these spren, but perhaps we can find out what these spren are. There are three options that stand out, Truthspren (note how they asked for one truth to enter Shadesmar), Soulspren (they allow you to soulcast, they have something to do with death.) or Shadespren (they give you access to Shadesmar, and they aren't really visible in the physical realm, they are only visible through the cognitive realm).

Can you guys make some sense of this? I've about run out of ideas here.

I think Kaladin actually makes it incredibly clear how Spren are attracted: You exemplify the virtue the Spren represent. Honorspren bind things, and Kaladin bound together groups of soldiers and slaves, protecting them and treating them better than they expected. I imagine Shallan's spren are something to do with intellect, or perhaps honesty, given that they require personal truths to admit her to Shadesmar, and that she started being more honest to herself at the end of her plotline when she first discovered her powers.


Oh, and on shardblades glowing- do you think perhaps that they can be imbued with Stormlight when a Radiant uses a Shardblade?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 01:09:15 AM by Ari54 »

XoVeR

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2010, 08:13:28 AM »
The Spren are definitely something that I was greatly excited yet dissapointed at in this book.  They are mentioned all the time and we still have no friggin idea what exactly they are.  We have conjecture, but Brandon did not do an excellent job of explaining them IMO with the converastions between Syl and Kaladin.   Maybe he wants to leave more open ended questions about them because they are going to be a bigger part of the plotline, but the whole time I am reading the book I just want to know more about the spren.

Also, why do you think Syl was revolted by the Shardblades?  She really had a dislike of the Shardblades at the end of the book

Jelan

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2010, 08:01:06 PM »
Didn't the king of Althekar talk about seeing beings with runes as heads in the mirror? Was a scene where he was talking about his paranoia and the cut saddle strap. Can't remember the exact scene though.

JCHancey

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2010, 08:45:49 PM »
The thing I found odd about Spren is there are none in Shinovar. So, if the theory that Cultivation decided to hide there is correct, then the Spren are a creation of the other Shard on Roshar, no?
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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2010, 09:32:23 PM »
The thing I found odd about Spren is there are none in Shinovar. So, if the theory that Cultivation decided to hide there is correct, then the Spren are a creation of the other Shard on Roshar, no?

I'm having a hard time remembering this section, and it doesn't make sense to me intuitively. I mean, Szeth is a Windrunner, so he pretty much needs an honorspren right? Or perhaps him having an honorspren made him a Truthless? (Also, who the heck trained him to Surgebind?)

JCHancey

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2010, 09:42:20 PM »
The thing I found odd about Spren is there are none in Shinovar. So, if the theory that Cultivation decided to hide there is correct, then the Spren are a creation of the other Shard on Roshar, no?

I'm having a hard time remembering this section, and it doesn't make sense to me intuitively. I mean, Szeth is a Windrunner, so he pretty much needs an honorspren right? Or perhaps him having an honorspren made him a Truthless? (Also, who the heck trained him to Surgebind?)

Szeth is the reason I don't buy into the one Surgebinder one Honorspren theory. Unless the people of Shin have a Truthspren constantly with them... Hmm. That could make sense. As seen from Rysn's VP the Shin are constantly saying what their goods are worth, emulating honesty, maybe attracting Truthspren. Szeth is the Truthless of Shinovar. So maybe he lost his Truthspren by telling a lie? Probably not, but intriguing nonetheless.
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Andrew the Great

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2010, 01:30:12 AM »
It's one of the more logical theories I've heard about Szeth, though we really don't have enough information about him to say anything one way or another. Also, it's just cool sounding, which makes it right until proven wrong.....
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Ari54

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2010, 04:39:04 AM »
The thing I found odd about Spren is there are none in Shinovar. So, if the theory that Cultivation decided to hide there is correct, then the Spren are a creation of the other Shard on Roshar, no?

I'm having a hard time remembering this section, and it doesn't make sense to me intuitively. I mean, Szeth is a Windrunner, so he pretty much needs an honorspren right? Or perhaps him having an honorspren made him a Truthless? (Also, who the heck trained him to Surgebind?)

Szeth is the reason I don't buy into the one Surgebinder one Honorspren theory. Unless the people of Shin have a Truthspren constantly with them... Hmm. That could make sense. As seen from Rysn's VP the Shin are constantly saying what their goods are worth, emulating honesty, maybe attracting Truthspren. Szeth is the Truthless of Shinovar. So maybe he lost his Truthspren by telling a lie? Probably not, but intriguing nonetheless.

It's possible, but it would limit the options for what sort of Spren Shallan might have found that admitted her to Shadesmar.