Author Topic: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)  (Read 9460 times)

happyman

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2010, 03:07:52 PM »
An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder.  He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I think you have the relationship backwards.  Dalinar is not a Surgebinder because no honorspren has bonded with him.  Syl offers to end her bond with Kaladin at one point, and the conversation about that makes it abundantly clear that breaking the bond would cause Kaladin to lose his Surgebinding abilities.  The Surgebinding abilities come from the bond, not the other way around, so if an honorspren bonded with Dalinar he would become a Surgebinder.

I have a hard time with that idea.  Kaladin has to have some sort of innate magical ability that attracted Syl to him in the first place.  If it was only his sense of honor, then honorspren should be bonding with honorable people right and left.  I have a hard time believing that Kaladin is the only honorable/uncorrupted person left in the world.

I dunno.  tWoK seemed to go out of its way to show that an awful lot of people are not honorable.  Kaladin's father lapsed, too, you know  Honorspren seem to be pretty picky.

Also, it's possible that Spren couldn't bind to people for some unrelated reason for all this time.  It wasn't that people weren't ever honorable, but something else got in the way.  Now that the *something else* has been removed, all the old bonds are being restored---and anybody with enough honor would now get an honorspren.
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guy

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2010, 06:22:54 PM »
maybe it was just that the spren were depressed for lack of a better term, they had all had their bonds forcibly broken by the radiants, maybe the reason syl was getting smarter wasnt because of the bond, bu she was just getting over her loss. and the reason she said that she would go back to being stupid is she would sink back into her depression or something

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2010, 09:40:41 PM »
Besides that just being somewhat comical (mood swings that bad just don't happen to "normal people") it doesn't explain Szeth's surgebinding
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

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happyman

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2010, 10:44:44 PM »
I'm actually pretty certain that Szeth has an honorspren, but that it doesn't hang around much because of the terrible way that he is forced to use his powers.  He is honorable, but that's about it.  Kind of like how Kaladin los Syl (but not his powers!) while he was slaughtering the Parshendi.
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2010, 04:11:46 AM »
That's a detail you can't assume because there is zero evidence to support it. I'm the product of being raised around lawyers and engineers so I'm not against assumptions if they are probable, what you suggest is possible but not probable. That's a rather important piece of information don't you think it would have been at least implied that some spren was floating around somewhere? Oh, I just remembered! There are no spren where Szeth comes from, that was told to us, that isn't an assumption.
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz

Stormblessed

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2010, 04:39:56 AM »
I'm actually pretty certain that Szeth has an honorspren, but that it doesn't hang around much because of the terrible way that he is forced to use his powers.  He is honorable, but that's about it.  Kind of like how Kaladin los Syl (but not his powers!) while he was slaughtering the Parshendi.

My theory is that Szeth's oathstone is a type of fabriel that has a spren imprisoned in it that allows him to use the lashings. But its not perfect, which is why he must always honour his oath.
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happyman

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2010, 02:38:27 PM »
That's a detail you can't assume because there is zero evidence to support it. I'm the product of being raised around lawyers and engineers so I'm not against assumptions if they are probable, what you suggest is possible but not probable. That's a rather important piece of information don't you think it would have been at least implied that some spren was floating around somewhere? Oh, I just remembered! There are no spren where Szeth comes from, that was told to us, that isn't an assumption.

Oh, there's not no evidence in favor of it.  The fact that Szeth can do exactly the same things that Kaladin can, and that Syl explicitly says that Kaladin's powers come from the interaction between her and him is evidence in favor of some sort of bond being needed for the magic to work.  That old king Dalinar talked to also seemed to think that Spren were needed to perform magic.  We learned from Jasnah's notes that fabrial's work by capturing and using spren.  Most of the forms of magic shown in the books so far need Spren to function.  Given that Kaladin's magic works via an honorspren, and that if one thing is hammered home in the book, it's that Szeth is honorable, but also given that Honorspren leave during massacres, it's not completely unreasonable.

But of course it's also perfectly possible that in Shinivar, the magic expresses itself differently, and that this difference is due to the absence of Spren.  I perhaps overstated my case above.  But we don't get many of Szeth's viewpoints; it's hard to say.
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Pechvarry

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2010, 05:06:55 PM »
Because of this quote from one of those recent interviews:

Quote from: The Branderson
If you look at a lot of fantasy–and this is what I did in Mistborn so it’s certainly not bad; or if is, I’m part of the problem–a lot of magic is just something you’re born with. You’re born with this special power that is either genetic or placed upon you by fate, or something like that. In my books I want interesting and different ways of doing that.

And because he says this is an era when the magic is returning to Roshar, I'm inclined to believe the Honorspren really will seek out the top 200 or so most honest people and try to bind them.  But not all at once.  The spren have to find themselves and find their hosts or... whatever.  And, ideally, they're discerning enough not to grab a worthless peasant who'd use his surgebinding to farm easier.

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2010, 05:25:50 PM »
That depends on your definition of worthiness, I'm sure farmers would disagree with you ;)
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz

Pechvarry

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2010, 05:50:08 PM »
10,000 Farmers Radiant brace for the Final Desolation?

MissGnomer

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2010, 07:35:28 PM »
An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder.  He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I think you have the relationship backwards.  Dalinar is not a Surgebinder because no honorspren has bonded with him.  Syl offers to end her bond with Kaladin at one point, and the conversation about that makes it abundantly clear that breaking the bond would cause Kaladin to lose his Surgebinding abilities.  The Surgebinding abilities come from the bond, not the other way around, so if an honorspren bonded with Dalinar he would become a Surgebinder.

My theory goes something like this: Take Syl's opinion of Dalinar and his Shardblade, the contrast between Radiants using Surgebinding and Shardplate at the same time in Dalinars visions with Szeth's statement that Shardplate interferes with his Surgebinding, and the difference in appearance (particularly the glowing) between Shardblades/plate now and on the Radiants in Dalinar's visions.  Given these things, it seems likely that something is wrong or corrupted about Shardblades and Shardplate in modern times, possibly due in part to their history of being taken by violence repeatedly over the last 4500 years instead of being earned however the Radiants did it.  Dalinar's possession and use of a corrupted Shardblade and Shardplate may have repelled honorspren.  In addition, through most of the book his behavior gave me the impression of a confused and uncertain man trying to find his way, mostly just going with the flow while trying to puzzle things out, rather than a man focused on the virtue of honor.

Now, at the end of the book he has both given away his Shardblade and Shardplate and has made some major decisions and committed to a course of doing the right and honorable thing despite major risks and high cost and effort.  I suspect he will attract an honorspren at some point in book two, and at that point he will become a Surgebinder.

Well said.  I remember Syl had an aversion to the Shardblade...perhaps it was Kaladin's rejection of the Shardplate a year ago that drew her to him?  I think she said she had been following him since about that time...

Could there be a theme of honorspren being drawn to honorable people who have in some way rejected the use of a corrupted Shardblade/plate or some other power?  Maybe we will see some of the characters that appear to be shaping up to be Radiants get their own spren.  That could be way off track, however.  Kaladin possesses many other traits that could have attracted her. 

Cheese Ninja

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2010, 08:06:14 PM »
Quote
“You used to be vibrant,” Syl said. “So many looked up to you, Kaladin. Your squad of soldiers. The enemies you fought. The other slaves. Even some lighteyes.”
Lunch would come soon. Then he could sleep until their bridgeleader kicked him awake for afternoon duty.
“I used to watch you fight,” Syl said. “I can barely remember it. My memories of then are fuzzy. Like looking at you through a rainstorm.”

She was actually watching him even before he rejected the shards.

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2010, 08:14:53 PM »
10,000 Farmers Radiant brace for the Final Desolation?
The power of a sharpened turnip!
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz

guy

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2010, 05:33:10 PM »
Dalinars vision when he was talking with the Nohadon guy mentioned surgebinders and said something like "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" that would seem to imply that you dont need to have an honorspren to be a surgebinder

Never

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2010, 07:34:15 PM »
Hmm... Someone should collect all the death-quotes from the entire book, and put them in one place (both the "Collected on's" and the ones from random  people dieing.)

That would probably help with our theorizing.

Anyhow, interesting correlation between the wavy-headed spren and the amount of death. But I don't think they are death-spren, consider how Jasnah was able to soulcast with a fake soulcaster well before she went to study in the palanaeum.

However, I strongly believe that they have something to do with death, and truth. Consider: The only person we know much of who has attracted one of these spren is Shallan (we don't know much about Jasnah, unfortunately). These spren take you to Shadesmar (which is likely the cognitive realm. It could also be the spiritual realm though, unless Brandon said otherwise).

Now, what do we know of Shallan that would make attract these spren to her?

These creatures take you to the cognitive realm. Shallan and Jasnah are both scholars.

I think something about the way these two women think and conceptualize the world draws these creatures, especially Shallan's perfect memory.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 07:44:33 PM by Never »