Author Topic: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)  (Read 9446 times)

happyman

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2010, 03:54:45 PM »
Hmm... Someone should collect all the death-quotes from the entire book, and put them in one place (both the "Collected on's" and the ones from random  people dieing.)

That would probably help with our theorizing.


Ever since finishing the book, I've assumed that the death quotes were all from Taravangian's people.

My reasons: (1) Almost all other epigraphs in the book quote "in-world" documents.  Jasnyn's notes, the anonymous letter (*ahem* Hoid's letter) , etc.  (2) The death quotes all  include annotations describing who, how long before death, status, etc.  Some even include notations on "usefulness."  These are things that would be useful to somebody studying death statements, and seem to be "in-world" constructs.  Taravangian is the obvious source of such an "in-world" document.  (3) Some of these annotations even mention that they are second-hand.  This would show that Taravangian isn't stupid; he is trying to get the best info possible, but doesn't trust anything not taken under controlled conditions.  It also thematically groups all the death statements as being somehow "together;' if the exceptions to togetherness are noted, the rest are, presumably, together.  (4) At lest one other death quote definitely comes from Taravangian's notes:  It goes roughly "I see that you are doing, and I hate you for it.  I will not tell you what I see."  This was totally from Taravangian's archives, and I say, good for the dying fellow.  Somebody should stick it to that monster.
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Cheese Ninja

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2010, 06:50:40 AM »
Since it would be easier for me than for some others, given that I can copy and paste, I'll post the collected epigraphs:

1. “The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather…we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes.”—Collected on the first day of the week Palah of the month Shash of the year 1171, thirty-one seconds before death. Subject was a darkeyed pregnant woman of middle years. The child did not survive.
2. “You’ve killed me. Bastards, you’ve killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die!”—Collected on the fifth day of the week Chach of the month Betab of the year 1171, ten seconds before death. Subject was a darkeyed soldier thirty-one years of age. Sample is considered questionable.
3.“Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?”—Collected on the second day of Kakash, year 1171, five seconds before death. Subject was a lighteyed woman in her third decade.
4.“A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.”—Collected on the 4th of Tanates, year 1171, thirty seconds before death. Subject was a cobbler of some renown.
5.“I’m dying, aren’t I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.”—Collected on the 3rd of Jesnan, 1172, 11 seconds pre-death. Subject was a Reshi chull trainer. Sample is of particular note.
6.“I have seen the end, and have heard it named. The Night of Sorrows, the True Desolation. The Everstorm.”—Collected on the 1st of Nanes, 1172, 15 seconds pre-death. Subject was a darkeyed youth of unknown origin.
7.“I’m cold. Mother, I’m cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop?”—Collected on Vevishes, 1172, 32 seconds pre-death. Subject was a lighteyed female child, approximately six years old.
8.“They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn….”—Collected on Palahishev, 1172, 21 seconds pre-death. Subject was a baker’s apprentice.
9.“Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn.”—Collected on Ishashan, 1172, 18 seconds pre-death. Subject was a lighteyed spinster of the eighth dahn.
10.“Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.”—Collected: Jesachev, 1173, 12 seconds pre-death. Subject: one of our own ardents, overheard during his last moments.
11.“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”—Collected: Chachanan, 1173, 84 seconds pre-death. Subject: a cutpurse with the wasting sickness, of partial Iriali descent.
(12) Gadol spit up blood, coughing. “They break the land itself!” he hissed, eyes wild. “They want it, but in their rage they will destroy it. Like the jealous man burns his rich things rather than let them be taken by his enemies! They come!”

Hoid's Letter:
1.Old friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.
2.I realize that you are probably still angry. That is pleasant to know. Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me. It is one of the cosmere’s great constants, I should think.
3.Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say.
4.You do not agree with my quest. I understand that, so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completely.
5.Might I be quite frank? Before, you asked why I was so concerned. It is for the following reason:
6.Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met.
7.He holds the most frightening and terrible of all of the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited.
8.One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say.
9.In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse.
10.You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.
11.Neither point makes the things I have written to you here untrue.
12.I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they’re still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They’ll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.
13.If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you’ll call them off. Or maybe you could astound me and ask them to do something productive for once.
14.For I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here. I ask again. Support me. Do not stand aside and let disaster consume more lives. I’ve never begged you for something before, old friend. I do so now.

After meeting with Kaladin:
Quote
“People see in stories what they’re looking for, my young friend.” He reached behind his boulder, pulling out a pack and slinging it on his shoulder. “I have no answers for you. Most days, I feel I never have had any answers. I’ve come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead.”

Jasnah's notes:
1.“The ones of ash and fire, who killed like a swarm, relentless before the Heralds.”—Noted in Masly, page 337. Corroborated by Coldwin and Hasavah.
2.“They were suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest.”—This fragment is the origin of a Thaylen proverb that was eventually reworked into a more common derivation. I believe it may reference the Voidbringers. See Ixsix’s Emperor, fourth chapter.
3.“They lived high atop a place no man could reach, but all could visit. The tower city itself, crafted by the hands of no man.”—Though The Song of the Last Summer is a fanciful tale of romance from the third century after the Recreance, it is likely a valid reference in this case. See page 27 of Varala’s translation, and note the undertext.
4.“They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances. Never underestimate them because of what you first see.”—Purports to be a scrap collected from Talatin, a Radiant of the Order of Stonewards. The source—Guvlow’s Incarnate—is generally held as reliable, though this is from a copied fragment of “The Poem of the Seventh Morning,” which has been lost.
5.“I walked from Abamabar to Urithiru.”—This quote from the Eighth Parable of The Way of Kings seems to contradict Varala and Sinbian, who both claim the city was inaccessible by foot. Perhaps there was a way constructed, or perhaps Nohadon was being metaphorical.
6.“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”—Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn’t give for a way to translate the Dawnchant.
7.“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”—From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.
8.“Born from the darkness, they bear its taint still, marked upon their bodies much as the fire marks their souls.”—I consider Gashashson-Navammis a trustworthy source, though I’m not certain about this translation. Find the original quote in the fourteenth book of Seld and retranslate it myself, perhaps?
9.“Within a heartbeat, Alezarv was there, crossing a distance that would have taken more than four months to travel by foot.”—Another folktale, this one recorded in Among the Darkeyed, by Calinam. Page 102. Stories of instantaneous travel and the Oathgates pervade these tales.
10.“Death upon the lips. Sound upon the air. Char upon the skin.”—From “The Last Desolation” by Ambrian, line 335.
11.“Like a highstorm, regular in their coming, yet always unexpected.”—The word Desolation is used twice in reference to their appearances. See pages 57, 59, and 64 of Tales by Hearthlight.
12.“They lived out in the wilds, always awaiting the Desolation—or sometimes, a foolish child who took no heed of the night’s darkness.”—A child’s tale, yes, but this quote from Shadows Remembered seems to hint at the truth I seek. See page 82, the fourth tale.
13.“Yelignar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed.”—The Unmade were obviously fabrications of folklore. Curiously, most were not considered individuals, but instead personifications of kinds of destruction. This quote is from Traxil, line 33, considered a primary source, though I doubt its authenticity.
14.“Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.”—Following the firing of the original Palanaeum, only one page of Terxim’s autobiography remained, and this is the only line of any use to me.
15.“They take away the light, wherever they lurk. Skin that is burned.”—Cormshen, page 104.
16.“Radiant / of birthplace / the announcer comes / to come announce / the birthplace of Radiants.”—Though I am not overly fond of the ketek poetic form as a means of conveying information, this one by Allahn is often quoted in reference to Urithiru. I believe some mistook the home of the Radiants for their birthplace.
17.“Flame and char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness.”—A quote from the Iviad probably needs no reference notation, but this comes from line 482, should I need to locate it quickly.

More deathquotes:
13.“I’m standing over the body of a brother. I’m weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?”—Dated Vevanev, 1173, 107 seconds pre-death. Subject: an out-of-work Veden sailor.
14.“He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!”—Dated Vevahach, 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. Subject: a prostitute. Back ground unknown.
15.“The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.”—Dated Palaheses, 1173, unknown seconds pre-death. Subject: a wealthy lighteyes. Sample collected secondhand.
16.“A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal.”—Dated Palahevan, 1173, 73 seconds pre-death. Subject: a beggar of some renown, known for his elegant songs.
17.“Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us.”—Dated Palahakev, 1173, 16 seconds pre-death. Subject: a Thaylen sailor.
18.“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”—Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.
(19)“And all the world was shattered!” Maps yelled, back arching, eyes wide, flecks of red spittle on his cheeks. “The rocks trembled with their steps, and the stones reached toward the heavens. We die! We die!”
20.“ReShephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to abominations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die!”—Dated Shashabev, 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed dock-worker in his forties, father of three.
21.“Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.”—Dated Betabanan, 1173, 45 seconds pre-death. Subject: a lighteyed child of five years. Diction improved remarkably when giving sample.
22.“The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended.”—Dated Betabanes, 1173, 95 seconds pre-death. Subject: a scholar of some minor renown. Sample collected secondhand. Considered questionable.
23.“In the storm I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving.”—Dated Kakanev, 1173, 13 seconds pre-death. Subject was a city guardsman.
24.“The darkness becomes a palace. Let it rule! Let it rule!”—Kakevah 1173, 22 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed Selay man of unknown profession.
25.“I wish to sleep. I know now why you do what you do, and I hate you for it. I will not speak of the truths I see.”—Kakashah 1173, 142 seconds pre-death. A Shin sailor, left behind by his crew, reportedly for bringing them ill luck. Sample largely useless.
26.“They come from the pit, two dead men, a heart in their hands, and I know that I have seen true glory.”—Kakashah 1173, 13 seconds pre-death. A rickshaw puller.
27.“I see them. They are the rocks. They are the vengeful spirits. Eyes of red.”—Kakakes 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed young woman of fifteen. Subject was reportedly mentally unstable since childhood.
28.“That chanting, that singing, those rasping voices.”—Kaktach 1173, 16 seconds pre-death. A middle-aged potter. Reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the last two years.
29.“Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Daigonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!”—Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89.
30.“They named it the Final Desolation, but they lied. Our gods lied. Oh, how they lied. The Everstorm comes. I hear its whispers, see its stormwall, know its heart.”—Tanatanes 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. An Azish itinerant worker. Sample of particular note.
31.“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”—Tanatanev 1173, 18 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed mother of four in her sixty-second year.
(32) “The day was ours, but they took it,” the boy cried. “Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather!”
33.“Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms— illuminate the silence above.”

Death quotes I numbered in parentheses occurred during the book, not in an epigraph.  Some of them seem to be things Talenel’Elin was saying, others look like statements from Knight Radiants, others seem pretty random.

happyman

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2010, 03:33:49 PM »
First of all, thank you for collecting the epigraphs.

Quote
Death quotes I numbered in parentheses occurred during the book, not in an epigraph.  Some of them seem to be things Talenel’Elin was saying, others look like statements from Knight Radiants, others seem pretty random.

All of the death quotes from the epigraphs seem to me to be things that people could have said under Taravangian's "tender care."  We don't know what they mean; that's the point.  Sources, in this case, would seem to be supernatural.  If they seem to come from the Night's Radiant, well, it's because those folks were important to the world and the mess that it's going to be in.  But the people actually talking were random people Taravangian got into his care.

Note that the quotes are only collected over the course of a few years.  This is a recent project, and one that is being very carefully documented.  Again in agreement with Taravangian as the "in-universe" source for the epigraphs.

Quotes 2, 5, and 25 make this especially clear.
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Cheese Ninja

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2010, 04:42:00 PM »
Ah, sorry, I wasn't being very clear. Yeah, all those quotes come from people Taravangian has killed.  The last one actually has an extended message to Taravangian attached by "Joshor, Head of His Majesty’s Silent Gatherers, Tanatanev 1173". I just mean that sometimes there seems to be other people speaking through them (3, 15, 21), and sometimes (like in the ones you mentioned specifically) they seem to be speaking for themselves.

ROSHtafARian

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2010, 07:37:01 PM »
I find the referece to the Midnight Mother to be particularly interesting, as she sounds like a definite specific mythical character...is this a reference to the Nightwatcher perhaps?  I got the sense that the Nightwatcher was no particular ally to Odium, and outside the conflict between he and the Almighty, though there's no real evidence of this, but this Midnight Mother with talk of her birthing monsters seems to be a foe not unlike him.  I'm reminded of the Essence of Midnight creature Dalinar fought in his vision, and if thunderclasts aren't actually voidbringers but monsters that fought alongside them...could they have been birthed by the Midnight Mother rather than be creatures of Odium?

You know, I think most of us have been assuming Bavadin to be a male Shardholder, but we do know that whatever grudge the author of the part 2 epigraphs has is against both him/her and Rayse (Odium)...could Bavadin be this Midnight Mother and a sometime ally of Odium's?

Ah wild, aimless speculation based on one or two throwaway lines.  Good times.

Cheese Ninja

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2010, 08:21:32 PM »
DQ 21 is interesting. It is about Kaladin as he leaps to fight the Parshendi. The gems in the beards are "The feast I must drink clings to their faces".  The words sparking in his mind are the 2nd Ideal. 

Actually, quite a few of these could be about Kaladin, if you interpret them a certain way, 23, he awakened to some degree in the highstorm when he was left out in it. 25, when he was depressed and saw that the bridgemen would be nothing more than bait no matter how good they got at it.  That would go against the other interpretation of the sailor just not wanting to reveal what he saw to the Silent Gatherers, unfortunately.

Is DQ 16 about Baxil's mistress?  She gouged out the eyes on the bust, and she fits the definition of vandal perfectly.  Does that make her Epan, Lady of Dreams?

Is DQ 26 an event yet to happen? Heart in their hands would be a chasmfiend's gemheart, anyone who gets out of a chasm could be considering to be leaving a pit, and most people who fall into a chasm are assumed dead.  If Kaladin gets a bit better at surgebinding he could survive and keep someone else who fell in alive too.

Edit: DQ 14, the glyphs of house Kholinar are khohk and linil, respectively stylized as a crown and tower, Elhokar uses a sword and crown.  Fallen title: Knight Radiant? Highprince of War?  The spear is something more often associated with Kaladin than the anyone else.  Possibly about Kaladin in service to Kholinar as a Knight Radiant?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 08:58:13 PM by Cheese Ninja »

guy

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2010, 07:02:33 PM »
Is DQ 16 about Baxil's mistress?  She gouged out the eyes on the bust, and she fits the definition of vandal perfectly.  Does that make her Epan, Lady of Dreams?
that would imply that the bust is of her or just as a wild theory, perhaps she is the one who created them, or perhaps she owns them or something like that.

yakumo fujii

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2010, 04:52:41 AM »
And as far as we've seen thus far, DeathSpren come around when something is dying, they don't bond to people to give people that mastery.

So to be clear, when people mention Deathspren, are they talking about the people with wavy lines where their heads should be?


Just had an interesting thought; Honorspren bond with people to make them surgebinders, (or windrunners if you prefer). Another type of spren (Soulspren? Truthspren perhaps?) bonds with a person allowing them to soulcast.
Now, there is a fabrial that allows you to soulcast without being bonded to a spren, so could there also be a fabrial that allows you to surgebind (or windrun, if you prefer) without being bonded to an honorspren? Perhaps this is related to the glowing glyphs on the Radiants armour, and their brightly glowing shardblades? 
I wonder why no Honorspren has bonded with Dalinar? Surely he is honorable enough to draw their notice. Perhaps because he weilded a shardblade, but Syl seemed to dislike it for reasons I don't understand, after all the Knights Radiant all wielded shardblades.

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2010, 08:53:10 PM »
And as far as we've seen thus far, DeathSpren come around when something is dying, they don't bond to people to give people that mastery.

So to be clear, when people mention Deathspren, are they talking about the people with wavy lines where their heads should be?


Just had an interesting thought; Honorspren bond with people to make them surgebinders, (or windrunners if you prefer). Another type of spren (Soulspren? Truthspren perhaps?) bonds with a person allowing them to soulcast.
Now, there is a fabrial that allows you to soulcast without being bonded to a spren, so could there also be a fabrial that allows you to surgebind (or windrun, if you prefer) without being bonded to an honorspren? Perhaps this is related to the glowing glyphs on the Radiants armour, and their brightly glowing shardblades? 
I wonder why no Honorspren has bonded with Dalinar? Surely he is honorable enough to draw their notice. Perhaps because he weilded a shardblade, but Syl seemed to dislike it for reasons I don't understand, after all the Knights Radiant all wielded shardblades.

An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder.  He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2010, 09:11:00 PM »
An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder.  He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I think you have the relationship backwards.  Dalinar is not a Surgebinder because no honorspren has bonded with him.  Syl offers to end her bond with Kaladin at one point, and the conversation about that makes it abundantly clear that breaking the bond would cause Kaladin to lose his Surgebinding abilities.  The Surgebinding abilities come from the bond, not the other way around, so if an honorspren bonded with Dalinar he would become a Surgebinder.

My theory goes something like this: Take Syl's opinion of Dalinar and his Shardblade, the contrast between Radiants using Surgebinding and Shardplate at the same time in Dalinars visions with Szeth's statement that Shardplate interferes with his Surgebinding, and the difference in appearance (particularly the glowing) between Shardblades/plate now and on the Radiants in Dalinar's visions.  Given these things, it seems likely that something is wrong or corrupted about Shardblades and Shardplate in modern times, possibly due in part to their history of being taken by violence repeatedly over the last 4500 years instead of being earned however the Radiants did it.  Dalinar's possession and use of a corrupted Shardblade and Shardplate may have repelled honorspren.  In addition, through most of the book his behavior gave me the impression of a confused and uncertain man trying to find his way, mostly just going with the flow while trying to puzzle things out, rather than a man focused on the virtue of honor.

Now, at the end of the book he has both given away his Shardblade and Shardplate and has made some major decisions and committed to a course of doing the right and honorable thing despite major risks and high cost and effort.  I suspect he will attract an honorspren at some point in book two, and at that point he will become a Surgebinder.

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2010, 12:22:59 AM »
Szeth has no spren. That detail is too important to leave out, spren are attracted to certain things based on their nature Kaladin had the power brought out by Syl but it was always there, that is the only logical explanation because there aren't spren where Szeth come from and yet some group still teaches surgebinding.


1.“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”—Collected: Chachanan, 1173, 84 seconds pre-death. Subject: a cutpurse with the wasting sickness, of partial Iriali descent.

I interpreted this quote as evidence of 3 shards on Roshar and it is my opinion that the Broken One is Odium or whoever it was that killed the Almighty. It is further possible that this is the person that Hoid hates.
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

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Guinevere

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2010, 04:35:27 AM »
An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder.  He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I think you have the relationship backwards.  Dalinar is not a Surgebinder because no honorspren has bonded with him.  Syl offers to end her bond with Kaladin at one point, and the conversation about that makes it abundantly clear that breaking the bond would cause Kaladin to lose his Surgebinding abilities.  The Surgebinding abilities come from the bond, not the other way around, so if an honorspren bonded with Dalinar he would become a Surgebinder.

I have a hard time with that idea.  Kaladin has to have some sort of innate magical ability that attracted Syl to him in the first place.  If it was only his sense of honor, then honorspren should be bonding with honorable people right and left.  I have a hard time believing that Kaladin is the only honorable/uncorrupted person left in the world.

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2010, 03:37:57 AM »
For what it's worth, though, the idea of spirits in various things is hardly original to the Codex Alera.

For a real-world, modern example, see the Shinto faith of Japan with its associate kami.

Another example might be the genius loci and numen that date back to Roman times.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 03:41:51 AM by Inkthinker »

Stormblessed

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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2010, 12:47:48 PM »
And as far as we've seen thus far, DeathSpren come around when something is dying, they don't bond to people to give people that mastery.

So to be clear, when people mention Deathspren, are they talking about the people with wavy lines where their heads should be?

Now, there is a fabrial that allows you to soulcast without being bonded to a spren, so could there also be a fabrial that allows you to surgebind (or windrun, if you prefer) without being bonded to an honorspren? Perhaps this is related to the glowing glyphs on the Radiants armour, and their brightly glowing shardblades? 

I wonder why no Honorspren has bonded with Dalinar? Surely he is honorable enough to draw their notice. Perhaps because he weilded a shardblade, but Syl seemed to dislike it for reasons I don't understand, after all the Knights Radiant all wielded shardblades.

An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder.  He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I have made this theory in another post, but my theory is basically that a spren did bind temporarily with Dalinar when he was fighting the chasmfiend. When he stops the claw with his bare hands, his suit glows (and not from a cracked shardplate), and eight (?) gemstones on Elhokar's shardplate are mysteriously drained. In protecting his nephew, Dalinar has shown the primary divine attribute of 1-Jes (first of the ten elements which also corresponds with an order of the knights radiant). Maybe Dalinar temporarily bonded with some sort of protectionspren or leaderspren as suppose to an honorspren, which Kaladin bonded to, which would lead to different magical powers.

Just had an interesting thought; Honorspren bond with people to make them surgebinders, (or windrunners if you prefer). Another type of spren (Soulspren? Truthspren perhaps?) bonds with a person allowing them to soulcast.


Edit: Accidently posted my thoughts in the middle of a quote...oops.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 07:21:01 AM by Stormblessed »
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Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2010, 05:02:22 PM »
For what it's worth, though, the idea of spirits in various things is hardly original to the Codex Alera.

For a real-world, modern example, see the Shinto faith of Japan with its associate kami.

One of my favourites of this is that a tool used for 108 years can become possessed.