Author Topic: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges  (Read 27214 times)

Eerongal

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2010, 01:01:58 PM »
There is a section that talks about Soulcasting buildings from the air itself (I believe it was a barracks they were going to make). I have no idea where in the book that is so I can't get a quote, but if they could Soulcast a building from air, why not a bridge?

This brings up another good question. I'm pretty sure you're right, buildings were talked about being made out of thin air, however, everything else that i can remember was turned into X from Y. Why was this necessary when they could make stuff out of thin air? Is it more difficult to do that? Or can they only do it with stone (buildings were stone)? Or is it maybe more time consuming?

Crazy theory: When making the buildings, they obviously didn't have some huge box to change into stone to be a structure, so they had to do the more difficult procedure of making it from thin air. My guess is that making the stone from thin air wasn't instant, and took some time. Possibly building it by adding layer by layer of sediment to the building to create it. This would be terribly time consuming. Possibly more time consuming than just plain building a bridge. We never actually see any buildings being soulcast, nor is the process ever described beyond something like "Our ancestors soulcast this place X thousand years ago!" or "We soulcast this place so many years ago, and have slowly been adding/changing it!"

Edit: Further thought - Maybe soulcasting something into existence requires a reduplicating of the natural process to create it (e.g. depositing stone layer by layer like sedimentary runoff would do, creating an apple requires creating a bud, which flowers, then becomes and apple, etc.) and is either more difficult and/or time consuming than going "Hey, stone, you're now a loaf of bread"
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 01:10:29 PM by Eerongal »
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douglas

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2010, 04:31:12 PM »
I think we have some precedent for logical reasoning that would make producing buildings from air time consuming.  When Jasnah changes a boulder into smoke, it's noted that the smoke explosively expands because it starts out with the same density as the stone it used to be, but smoke is never naturally that dense.  Turning this the other way, making stone from air would result in ridiculously fragile structures that would crumble from a light touch if you tried to do it all at once in an instant.  I'd guess it has to be done by making an extremely thin shell of air-turned-stone, which would almost instantly shrink its thickness to bring its density up, then waiting for air to fill the void left by the shrinking stone, adding another thin layer merging with the first, and repeating many times.  It has nothing to do with the process by which stone is normally formed and everything to do with enormous differences in density between the input and output materials.

SnagglezMaw

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2010, 08:30:05 PM »
I forgot about that density thing. With that in mind, it would be reasonable to assume that they can't Soulcast bridges because the amount of time it takes, and the Parshendi would easily destroy such a bridge before it was completed. However, it can't be too lengthy of a process, as any structure they could Soulcast would need to be completed before another highstorm passed by. So since they probably couldn't Soulcast one out of air, why not Soulcast one of the bridgemens bridges into rock while it's over a chasm?

Inkthinker

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2010, 08:37:37 PM »
I think we may be looking at the issue from the wrong side. The reason that there are not soulcast bridges has nothing to do with how the magic works. They probably could soulcast bridges if they have the right materials to hand.

But individual Highprinces determine what goes into their camps, and they pay to have those buildings cast on an individual basis at their own expense. And that's an expensive process 'cause it eats up spheres and requires a specialist with a near monopoly on the process.

Bridges aren't cast out on the Plains because no one faction wants to shoulder the responsibility or expense of creating and maintaining them, especially if anyone else was allowed to use them. Remember, the Highprinces are only loosely allied under the King, and they're rarely interested in working together. Competition is at the heart of the Alethi nature, right?

It's possible that the lack of soulcast bridges is a factor of selfish politicking and bureaucracy rather than an issue of feasibility.  All you have to do is look to real-world politics to see how easy it is for smart ideas to fall to the wayside.

Munin

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2010, 08:39:09 PM »
I forgot about that density thing. With that in mind, it would be reasonable to assume that they can't Soulcast bridges because the amount of time it takes, and the Parshendi would easily destroy such a bridge before it was completed. However, it can't be too lengthy of a process, as any structure they could Soulcast would need to be completed before another highstorm passed by. So since they probably couldn't Soulcast one out of air, why not Soulcast one of the bridgemens bridges into rock while it's over a chasm?
Because rock is relatively brittle. When you make a bridge out of stone, it needs supports. Wood can flex with impacts, and is more resilient to everything but fire.
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SnagglezMaw

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2010, 09:18:50 PM »
I think we may be looking at the issue from the wrong side. The reason that there are not soulcast bridges has nothing to do with how the magic works. They probably could soulcast bridges if they have the right materials to hand.

But individual Highprinces determine what goes into their camps, and they pay to have those buildings cast on an individual basis at their own expense. And that's an expensive process 'cause it eats up spheres and requires a specialist with a near monopoly on the process.

Bridges aren't cast out on the Plains because no one faction wants to shoulder the responsibility or expense of creating and maintaining them, especially if anyone else was allowed to use them. Remember, the Highprinces are only loosely allied under the King, and they're rarely interested in working together. Competition is at the heart of the Alethi nature, right?

It's possible that the lack of soulcast bridges is a factor of selfish politicking and bureaucracy rather than an issue of feasibility.  All you have to do is look to real-world politics to see how easy it is for smart ideas to fall to the wayside.


Thinking a bit ahead, if Dalinar manages to unite the Highprinces, perhaps this is something we could see in the books to come (barring any other story elements that removes everyone from the Shattered Plains).

Omelethead

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2010, 01:05:28 AM »
Because rock is relatively brittle. When you make a bridge out of stone, it needs supports. Wood can flex with impacts, and is more resilient to everything but fire.

Oh come on! Yes, in thin sheets or other instances rock can be brittle and worse than wood, but rock and stone are always better building materials, provided you have the capability to work them.

The Soulcast barracks withstand the highstorms easily. When Kaladin is out in the highstorm, he mentions boulders smashing into the roof by him. I'm assuming the rock can handle impacts just fine.

The Greeks didn't build great stone temples because they were too dumb to use wood  :P.

Munin

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2010, 01:09:57 AM »
Because rock is relatively brittle. When you make a bridge out of stone, it needs supports. Wood can flex with impacts, and is more resilient to everything but fire.

Oh come on! Yes, in thin sheets or other instances rock can be brittle and worse than wood, but rock and stone are always better building materials, provided you have the capability to work them.

The Soulcast barracks withstand the highstorms easily. When Kaladin is out in the highstorm, he mentions boulders smashing into the roof by him. I'm assuming the rock can handle impacts just fine.

The Greeks didn't build great stone temples because they were too dumb to use wood  :P.
Those structures are built on a foundation, though. The bridges stretch over empty air.

For a good comparison, look at how they used to construct buildings out of solid concrete. They could withstand an impact from an airplane (look it up), but they tended to be a safety nightmare in case of earthquakes.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 01:12:10 AM by Munin »
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SnagglezMaw

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2010, 01:22:32 AM »
Like what Inkthinker said earlier:
Remember as well that the bridge is hollow inside, with sections reinforced and separated by supports.
The supports and reinforcements are already there. I think it would be quite sturdy (even if they made the bridges extra thick before running them out to the field). But as Inkthinker also said, I agree with his take on the Highprinces not wanting use such a tactic.

Munin

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2010, 02:05:56 AM »
Supports that work for wood wouldn't necessarily work for stone.

Take a log cabin and replace the wood with stone, and it'll be incredibly unstable. Take a brick house and turn the bricks into wood, and you have the same problem.

Nails work to hold wood together. Not so much for stone. They'd need to build the bridges in a very specific way that I can't even conceptualize for it to work as both stone and wood.
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SnagglezMaw

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2010, 02:35:40 AM »
Supports that work for wood wouldn't necessarily work for stone.

Take a log cabin and replace the wood with stone, and it'll be incredibly unstable. Take a brick house and turn the bricks into wood, and you have the same problem.

Nails work to hold wood together. Not so much for stone. They'd need to build the bridges in a very specific way that I can't even conceptualize for it to work as both stone and wood.

I agree with that.

I'm also starting to think that Soulcasting a bridge might not be possible (under current conditions). Given the circumstances (Parsheni attacks/raids, highstorms), the time it would probably take to Cast, and that Dalinar would probably have tried to implement it already (he only one not thinking about wealth, and he's always concerned for the well-being of the bridgemen), leads me now to think that as long as there's a war on the Shattered Plains we won't see Soulcasted bridges.

Omelethead

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2010, 03:30:54 AM »
They don't have to Soulcast the wood into stone (though I imagine they could, with some thinking). They could slowly Soulcast from thin air.

And it's mentioned that each highprince was responsible for the bridges closest to them. I don't know if that was official, or if they just protected their route to the plateaus. But even if there was no unified effort led by the King to establish Soulcast bridges, I would still expect to see a highprince try it out (especially Dalinar). That and the Soulcast outposts.

Those structures are built on a foundation, though. The bridges stretch over empty air.

For a good comparison, look at how they used to construct buildings out of solid concrete. They could withstand an impact from an airplane (look it up), but they tended to be a safety nightmare in case of earthquakes.

A good point, but look at the Roman Aqueduct then. Still standing, still functioning, after ~2000 years. Built on a foundation, but much more like a bridge than a building. I'm sure it's seen a few earthquakes in its time.

And surviving impacts like boulders or Parshendi attacks is a more useful feature than surviving earthquakes. They can always repair the bridges after the rare earthquake.

I'm also starting to think that Soulcasting a bridge might not be possible (under current conditions). Given the circumstances (Parsheni attacks/raids, highstorms), the time it would probably take to Cast, and that Dalinar would probably have tried to implement it already (he only one not thinking about wealth, and he's always concerned for the well-being of the bridgemen), leads me now to think that as long as there's a war on the Shattered Plains we won't see Soulcasted bridges.

They don't have to Soulcast the final assault, or even any distant plateaus. They can go out at night (since most Soulcasting is done at night to hide it from the common soldier), and Soulcast the plateaus close to camp. Then move outward. When they're  far enough away that they start to worry about Parshendi raids, they can send a force with mobile bridges to hold the surrounding plateaus, and Soulcast in safety (and if privacy is still a concern, erect quick tent-like walls to hide their work).

It's not easy, but after hearing about the Parshendi burning the occasional bridge (even if it was happening less and less frequently), and the fact that they're staying in the warcamps and taking forever to get to the gemhearts, I expected to at least see Soulcast bridges mentioned. I think it's an effective method, but even if it was dismissed in the books, I'd be happy.

Munin

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2010, 04:18:44 AM »
They don't have to Soulcast the wood into stone (though I imagine they could, with some thinking). They could slowly Soulcast from thin air.

And it's mentioned that each highprince was responsible for the bridges closest to them. I don't know if that was official, or if they just protected their route to the plateaus. But even if there was no unified effort led by the King to establish Soulcast bridges, I would still expect to see a highprince try it out (especially Dalinar). That and the Soulcast outposts.

Those structures are built on a foundation, though. The bridges stretch over empty air.

For a good comparison, look at how they used to construct buildings out of solid concrete. They could withstand an impact from an airplane (look it up), but they tended to be a safety nightmare in case of earthquakes.

A good point, but look at the Roman Aqueduct then. Still standing, still functioning, after ~2000 years. Built on a foundation, but much more like a bridge than a building. I'm sure it's seen a few earthquakes in its time.

And surviving impacts like boulders or Parshendi attacks is a more useful feature than surviving earthquakes. They can always repair the bridges after the rare earthquake.
Right, but that still requires a very different structure than a wooden bridge. For one thing, the bridge couldn't be hollow, which would make it MUCH harder to get the bridge into position.

Also, look at the roman aqueduct. It has supports. What you're suggesting would basically be the aqueduct without any of the arches.

Stick a piece of stone flat over a gap, then march hundreds of men in heavy armor over it, and it'll snap.

Also, the concrete buildings withstanding plane crashes... you misunderstand. It left a plane-shaped hole in the building at the top, but the building didn't collapse. Stick a boulder-sized hole in a stone bridge, and it'll fall apart.
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Eerongal

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2010, 04:52:11 AM »
I dunno, going with what inkthinker was saying earlier, with gaps being on average about 10-25 feet across with maybe no more than a 5-10 foot drop, stone bridges might be possible. Afterall, relatively sturdy stone bridges of these sizes to exist in the real world (that's not to say how they'd take a highstorm)

example:


This bridge is maybe 10-15 feet long, possibly 20 at max. An arch anchored on both sides of the chasm could prove quite strong. My only issue is with the drops. Those could cause problems with building like this, though i suppose they could try to find areas they're relatively close to being level.

Also: i still think that there was a reason why permanent soulcast bridges were never even considered during the course of the book. I think it likely had to do with cost, time, or soulcasting difficulty as i stated before.
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Inkthinker

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Re: WoK: Bridge Crews & Bridges
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2010, 07:09:49 AM »
Remember as well, we haven't seen a structure being soulcast. We saw a rock converted to smoke, men converted to fire and glass (I think?) and something (I forget what... a vase?) converted to blood.

I don't think soulcasting a building works like, (for example) Fullmetal Alchemist "alchemy" magic, where a fully formed structure emerges from the ground. Until we know more about it, I'm going to reckon that there's some reason for it, whether its related to restrictions in the magic or it's something more mundane like politics or expense.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 07:11:43 AM by Inkthinker »