Author Topic: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)  (Read 6995 times)

molybdenum

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2010, 07:13:25 PM »
But if these people died, we'd lose pretty well all the most interesting characters in the series.

Like EODO, the only character on the list that I really didn't like was Roshone. I really liked Sadeas throughout the book, and the Taravingian reveal at the end is awesome. 

In fact, I can't help but like Taravingian. Here's a guy who believes in the Almighty, as evidenced by his debate with Jasnah early in the book, knows he's completely dooming himself by his actions to whatever doom these guys believe in, and yet continues his actions because he believes his saving the world. And for all we know, he might be right with what he's doing. He calls these people his dear friends, and is still willing to sacrifice them. Evil? Completely. But he might be just what the world needs at this point.

Yeah, I would much prefer a Taravingian book to a Shallan, Adolin, or another Kaladin book, but I don't think it's happening. Some characters need to remain mysterious.

Mellington the loony Gold Misting

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2010, 07:49:07 PM »
Roshone is simply out of money and options and fated to be no more than an unceasing misfortune to all those around him - I don't think anyone in his world and plane of reality likes him either.  Is he a Villain?  As much as the next grouchy old man who harasses the neighbors.

Sadeas is socially accepted opportunist who can't see the use of taking the good path when the bad is more convenient/quicker - he's a politician.

Amaran has disturbing logic in the events we've witnessed - he's focused on appearances rather than actuality in any given moral dilemma we've seen him confront.  Who knows - we haven't seen very much of him so maybe he'll show some redeeming behavior as the tale progresses?

Szeth obviously has a backstory (which will come out later) and has a lifestyle that does not give him many options.  Didn't his viewpoints make it seem like he ENJOYED having his abilities underestimated so he wouldn't be used?  He's sickened by what Taravangian is doing - obviously his moral compass points the right way...he simply doesn't have free will to act as his convictions direct him (or at least believes he doesn't).  I don't see him as evil so much as exploited and unable to escape a cycle of violence and destruction - he's a tool in the hands of whoever lays hold of his stone.  Would I like to see what he can/would do without a master forcing his hand.
So...right now I think he's an Anti-Villain but not really by choice.

Taravangian is really the surprise bad guy here...but he's got it all rationalized and he's got overall good intentions (to save the world from the doom which is obviously coming).  Do I think he's our biggest mortal foe?  No.  Definitely an Anti-Villain by choice.


So I see two who I don't believe should be on the list...YET

Szeth...has not acted on his own, as he would choose - yet.

Amaran - I don't feel we have enough information.  Obviously he's not the most exemplary individual we'll ever meet but he's not necessarily a full fledged Villain.

KhyEllie

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2010, 08:15:19 PM »
I agree with the points made about Taravangian. I really hate him, but I can understand him too. He does what he does in an attempt to save the world. His moral compass is obviously very flawed, but whatever he discovers could be a serious help to saving the world. I wish there was another way to find out the things he's looking for, but that's the only option he's got. He could probably do it more patiently, and with only the terminally ill, so there is reason to say he's just plain evil.

As for the 'One of them may save the world. One of them will destroy it.' My votes go toward Dalinar and Szeth, respectively.  Szeth's skewed version of honor could very easily mean the end of everything.

Liralyn

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2010, 11:13:42 PM »

As for the 'One of them may save the world. One of them will destroy it.' My votes go toward Dalinar and Szeth, respectively.  Szeth's skewed version of honor could very easily mean the end of everything.

I think that both of these refer to Szeth. 
I think Szeth won't let Taravangian do what he intends, which is to save the world from the voidbringers.  Before long, Szeth won't stand by and watch Taravangian kill women and children.  He'll have to confront his own part in what he's been doing, which may destroy him, but it may also destroy everything Taravangian's worked for.

On the other hand, the world can't survive on a foundation in which it is okay to do such evil things for any reason.  The ends cannot justify the means.  Is letting the voidbringers win better than what Taravangian is doing?  I think it is.  By destroying the King, he may yet save us all.

CabbyHat

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2010, 09:17:49 AM »
I think the dynamic between Szeth and Taravangian is really interesting, and I hope we're going to get to see more of it. Taravangian actually reminds me a lot of Szeth in some ways - compelled by ways and reasons we don't yet understand to kill people that he doesn't want to kill. I almost wonder if he made Szeth kill all those innocents so that he'd have a closer understanding of what Taravangian was doing. Just a spur-of-the-moment impression. :)
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Harakeke

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2010, 06:45:36 AM »
As long as we're discussing murderers, liars, and thieves who are merely victims of circumstance...  Shallan. 
<.<
>.>
Jus' sayin'.  Well intentioned she may seem, but I bet she ends up doing more harm than good.  Kill her now, before she develops crazy superpowers.  It's the only way to be sure.

Celegus

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2010, 04:10:28 PM »
I agree about Shallan unintentionally doing more bad than good and she wasn't exactly my favorite character, but I still wouldn't want her killed off. She's pretty much our best resource of learning more about Soulcasting and Shadesmar, and I'd love to see what happens to her family and if she uses her powers to help them. Usually I'm all for killing people off GRRM style, but the characters in WoK are just so good... even if I don't like them, I want to know more about them and their motives before I would want them dead.

Harakeke

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2010, 05:19:54 PM »
Oh, yeah -- as I reader, I definitely love seeing Shallan's viewpoint and would hate to see her die. (In-character, though... she's trouble. Probably even supports rights for Spren.)
The only one I wouldn't mind seeing bumped off would be Sadeas, just to rub that smug smile off his face.  "Haha!  Yet again I triumph in some small way at great expense to you. You will rue the day you underestimated my crafty-- " *random Thunderclast appears* *crunch* *splat* *dies*

Erunion

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2010, 06:37:08 PM »
If the Oathstone works like compulsion...

It doesn't, see reply #33 in this thread from me.  There is ample evidence in the book that they are not compulsion.
You say true, I say thank you.
However, some folks (namely Erunion) tried to argue 'around' that fact. ;D

Yup. I personally think it would be better storywise that Szeth is compelled only by his innate sense of honour.
But I like playing Devil's Advocate, it encourages discussion!  ;)

andygal

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2010, 07:27:08 AM »
I don't think Szeth needs to die, at least not yet, he's an interesting character and as somebody said, his moral compass clearly points in the right direction.

Sadeas needs to die in some suitably embarrassing way. 

KhyEllie

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2010, 07:23:37 AM »
Quote
You know how it says, somewhere, that one of the three viewpoint characters would ruin the world?  (I don't remember where, but that means that either Dalinar, Shallan, or Kaladin are going to do something really stupid.)  My bet is on Kaladin.  He just seems too easily embittered, and while he did a ton of good in this first book, I can easily see him turning into a much shadier guy as we get deeper into the series.

I mean, once he gets his powers developed, he'll be just as unstoppable as Szeth--but without any random oaths to anybody else.  I can see him going Loose Cannon on Roshar brightlords sometime in the future.

Dalinar or Adolin might never kill Sadeas, but Kaladin?  Oh, boy.

It's on the back of the hardcover, and you're forgetting Szeth, who is the most probable character to go off destroying things at this point.
It seems to me that Kaladin and Szeth will end up being very opposite, I mean, Kaladin is embracing the Oaths, and Szeth is following an 'honor' of a very different sort. Personally, I think that while Szeth is far more practiced, Kaladin will be an even match for him relatively soon since these Oaths seems to be giving him power.

Casco

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2010, 06:58:22 AM »
 Szeth cant die, he is one of the new Night radiances (spelling??) He and Kaladin must survive and unite.

happyman

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2010, 03:35:00 PM »
Quote
You know how it says, somewhere, that one of the three viewpoint characters would ruin the world?  (I don't remember where, but that means that either Dalinar, Shallan, or Kaladin are going to do something really stupid.)  My bet is on Kaladin.  He just seems too easily embittered, and while he did a ton of good in this first book, I can easily see him turning into a much shadier guy as we get deeper into the series.

I mean, once he gets his powers developed, he'll be just as unstoppable as Szeth--but without any random oaths to anybody else.  I can see him going Loose Cannon on Roshar brightlords sometime in the future.

Dalinar or Adolin might never kill Sadeas, but Kaladin?  Oh, boy.

It's on the back of the hardcover, and you're forgetting Szeth, who is the most probable character to go off destroying things at this point.
It seems to me that Kaladin and Szeth will end up being very opposite, I mean, Kaladin is embracing the Oaths, and Szeth is following an 'honor' of a very different sort. Personally, I think that while Szeth is far more practiced, Kaladin will be an even match for him relatively soon since these Oaths seems to be giving him power.

Don't forget that, as Teft noticed, Kaladin is a master of the spear.  He hasn't used Stormlight as much as Szeth, but his other practice might manage to make up for it, as well as the oaths.
Nature hates being reified.

Kaurne

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2011, 08:22:54 PM »
Sorry if I am doing necromancy here ;D, but this talk about Taravingian reminds me of a proverb:

'History needs its butchers as well as its shepherds'

Miyabi

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Re: WoK: Top 5 Villians That Really Really Need to Die (*Spoilers*)
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2011, 08:32:20 PM »

I don't think Sadeas is going to end up being a bad guy. >>'  I have a feeling he'll be one of the main heroes in the end. . . he just needs to open his eyes.
オレは長超猿庁じゃ〜。