Author Topic: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*  (Read 9678 times)

Chaos

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #75 on: September 06, 2010, 10:29:33 PM »
Happyman, I completely agree with your assessment. I think it all makes sense.

My one concern is that the epigraphs aren't written in a very Hoid style. Remember how distinctive the epigraphs in MB3 were in revealing the mystery? I worry that we are wrong, somehow. Granted, I don't see how we could be. Perhaps the change in Hoid's tone is simply because he's in deep trouble.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2010, 12:18:36 AM »
Happyman, I completely agree with your assessment. I think it all makes sense.

My one concern is that the epigraphs aren't written in a very Hoid style. Remember how distinctive the epigraphs in MB3 were in revealing the mystery? I worry that we are wrong, somehow. Granted, I don't see how we could be. Perhaps the change in Hoid's tone is simply because he's in deep trouble.
Although, to be fair, we only know how Hoid talks, not how he writes. For a lot of people (including myself), those two can differ greatly.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2010, 12:22:13 AM »
Although, to be fair, we only know how Hoid talks, not how he writes. For a lot of people (including myself), those two can differ greatly.

True. I talk in a low monotone voice but write in a high pitched melodical voice.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2010, 01:12:42 AM »
Munin, you said before (too lazy to quote it, sorry :P), that the difference between Galladon and clubs and Galladon and this unkown dula (I'll give you that), is that galladon and clubs are similar and Galladon and this dula guy are exactly the same.  This is untrue, as we've already found one major difference: their appearance.  You've created a theory for why the appearance could be different, but that theory is not proof, as there is no evidence for it, as I explained in my last post.  The only evidence that HAS been given for this theory so far, is that Elantrians MUST change back into humans when visiting other worlds because Galladon did, but that's not proof because we don't know if it's Galladon.  You need to either know A) That Galladon is the searcher, or B) that Elantrians change back into humans when on Roshar in order to use them as proofs, you can't use them to prove eachother.

Yes the 'Dula' is grumpy and bald, but his non silvery metallic skin means he's probably not Galladon.  The evidence we have says Elantrians don't change unless cut off from the Dor completely, and when that happens they don't change back into humans, but into hairless, wrinkly, zombie things.  Also, upon reading this, if these people are Dula (and they do seem to be races not from Roshar, as Ishikk has trouble classifying him), I realized that Blunt is the same race as Grumpy, which means there are two 'Dulas.'  This means the other one can't be Dashe or Saolin, even if this theory of Elantrians reverting turns out to be true.  It could, however be them if Aon Dor worked on Roshar, which I think might be more likely than them reverting.

Reading this with Galladon and Raoden in mind, it does make me think of them though.  Perhaps, with more EVIDENCE I could be convinced :)

This is why I respectfully disagree with your theory that it is Galladon. :)

I'm sure Hoid is the writer of the epigraphs, I don't have evidence that is not yet given, but my gut says it is him. 
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2010, 01:35:56 AM »
I have another idea for why Galladon isn't shiny.  It seems like shiny skin would be rather conspicuous . Perhaps Galladon (or his companions) are using  Aon Shao, the one that lets Raoden pretend to be Kaloo. That Aon seemed to work even before Elantris was back up. It might work on another planet.

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #80 on: September 07, 2010, 01:38:58 AM »
Munin, you said before (too lazy to quote it, sorry :P), that the difference between Galladon and clubs and Galladon and this unkown dula (I'll give you that), is that galladon and clubs are similar and Galladon and this dula guy are exactly the same.  This is untrue, as we've already found one major difference: their appearance.  You've created a theory for why the appearance could be different, but that theory is not proof, as there is no evidence for it, as I explained in my last post.  The only evidence that HAS been given for this theory so far, is that Elantrians MUST change back into humans when visiting other worlds because Galladon did, but that's not proof because we don't know if it's Galladon.  You need to either know A) That Galladon is the searcher, or B) that Elantrians change back into humans when on Roshar in order to use them as proofs, you can't use them to prove eachother.
Partially true, but the fact remains that he looks the same as Galladon, except he doesn't glow.

And for all we know, the Elantrians can voluntarily stop glowing.

Furthermore, we know that AonDor weakens the further from Elantris. Logically, it's not unreasonable to think that the Dor would weaken the further you get from Sel.

Yes the 'Dula' is grumpy and bald, but his non silvery metallic skin means he's probably not Galladon.  The evidence we have says Elantrians don't change unless cut off from the Dor completely, and when that happens they don't change back into humans, but into hairless, wrinkly, zombie things.  Also, upon reading this, if these people are Dula (and they do seem to be races not from Roshar, as Ishikk has trouble classifying him), I realized that Blunt is the same race as Grumpy, which means there are two 'Dulas.'  This means the other one can't be Dashe or Saolin, even if this theory of Elantrians reverting turns out to be true.  It could, however be them if Aon Dor worked on Roshar, which I think might be more likely than them reverting.
This goes back to Occam's Razor, though. Is it more likely that there's someone that speaks Dula, looks like Galladon, is uncharacteristically grumpy, but is not Galladon... or is more likely that Galladon isn't glowing for some reason?

Definitely can't be Saolin, by the way, unless he came back from the dead (well, technically he was just put in the pool, but still).
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #81 on: September 07, 2010, 05:23:18 AM »
Finally! I tracked down all the page numbers I wanted to.

WoK:
Prologue: Elhokar, the king's son and heir, sat at the high table, tuling the feast in his father's absence, He was in conversation with two men, a dark-skinned Azish man who had an odd patch of pale skin on his cheek and a thinner, Alethi-looking man who kept glancing over his shoulder.

Interlude:

169: There were three of them. Two were dark-skinned Makabaki, though they were the strangest Makabaki he'd ever seen. One was thick limbed where most of his kind were small and fine-boned, and he had a completely bald head. The other was taller, with short dark hair, lean muscles, and broad shoulders. In his head, Ishikk called them Grump and Blunt, on account of their personalities.
        The third man had light tan skion like an Alethi. He didn't seem quite right either, though. The eyes were the wrong shape, and his accent was certainly not Alethi. He spoke the Selay language worse than the other two, and usually stayed quite. He seemed thoughtful, though. Iskikk called him Thinker.
       Wonder how he earned that scar across his scalp Ishikk thought....
       ..said tall, stiff Blunt. He had the build and air of a soldier though none of the three carried weapons.
      

Elantris:
Blunt:
132: Next Kiin pointed through the slightly open door toward a man with dark brown skin and delicate features. "That man beside Eondel is Baron Shuden."

Grump: (Galladon)
9: A man, his smooth bald head reflecting the morning light... The man's skin bore the telltale black splotches od the Shaod, but the unaffected patches weren't pale, they were a deep brown instead... Tall and firm-framed, the man had wide hands and keen eyes set in a dark-skinned face.

Thinker? (Raoden)
316: He was a taller man...The gray parts of his skin were a little lighter than those on th other Elantrians

539: He had pale Aonic skin, sandy brown hair, and keen blue skin.


I also think it may be someone else besides Thinker. Brandon has another Elantris book planned that will be set 10 years in the future. It will focus on Daorn and Kaise (Kiin's kids) and the imminent invasion of Fjordel. I think that WoK may be after this novel, which would explain who has a scar on their scalp and who is Jindoese that's a soldier (although I'm inclined to believe that it is indeed Shuden). However, thinker might be Daorn, who isn't quite as good with languages as his sister. Maybe it's Raoden and Galladon in the prologue, then six years later, it's Galladon, Shuden, and Daorn.

Although I am inclined to believe that it is indeed Galladon. Who else is a pessimistic, bald, sturdy Dula?

For lack of shininess- I think either they used Aon Shao (which is the Aon Raoden used to disguise as a Dula), or that distance from Elantris tuned down the shininess, or that since the shards that Aona and Skai Splintered, the magic system collapsed, returning Elantrians to normal people.

For distance- I think that the Selians are either using Aon Tia to transport, or they have figured out how to use Shadesmar to move from planet to planet, much like I assume the Radiants did to move within Roshar.

For author of letter: Hoid is being chased by other worlders, the writer of the letter is being chased by 17th shard. Hoid knows about Shards and is interfering (see WoA, when he leads the Terrisman refugees), writer is interfering.

 

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #82 on: September 07, 2010, 06:41:13 AM »
I'm with comatose. These are correlations but none of the comparisons are proof. It's likly that you are speculating and extrapilating too much.
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happyman

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #83 on: September 07, 2010, 06:01:05 PM »
Happyman, I completely agree with your assessment. I think it all makes sense.

My one concern is that the epigraphs aren't written in a very Hoid style. Remember how distinctive the epigraphs in MB3 were in revealing the mystery? I worry that we are wrong, somehow. Granted, I don't see how we could be. Perhaps the change in Hoid's tone is simply because he's in deep trouble.

One thing that we absolutely must take into account when we think about this is context.

Basically, almost every other time we have seen Hoid, he is acting.  Playing a role.  A role largely determined by the culture he finds himself in.

Pre-WoK, the only really long bit (in published canon) where he speaks in anything like his own voice in Warbreaker, when he info-dumps for Siri.  This is a very formalized type of storytelling, with certain conventions, not to mention deference, required.

The other extended sequences are as King's Wit, where he is most definitely playing a role (he clearly enjoys it, but it is a role), and his talk with Kaladin.

Of all of these, I would only take the discussion with Kaladin as being really representative of Hoid's voice.  I don't think we get enough of it to say whether the epigraphs are his or not.  People react very differently around different people, especially depending on how well they know each other.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2010, 03:52:47 PM »
This goes back to Occam's Razor, though. Is it more likely that there's someone that speaks Dula, looks like Galladon, is uncharacteristically grumpy, but is not Galladon... or is more likely that Galladon isn't glowing for some reason?

Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but actually, you've got your logic backwards for using Occam's razor. With Occam's razor, anything that can be explained as something that happens naturally, or can be tested/shown is not considered a complexity when consider how simple the statement is. Anything you have to take of faith, or a hunch IS considered a complexity. (this is why when using Occam's razor, the idea of the big bang is considered more simple than saying some sort of deity created the universe, despite the fact that saying "*insert god name here* did it!" seems more simple than describing particle physics)

Occam's razor defines the "simpler" solution as the one that requires the least amount of new assumptions to be extrapolated. It requires basically no extrapolation for someone to speak dula (speaking a language is common among the people who speak it, so it requires not special assumption on our part),  the appearance, the similarities we have are dark skin, bald head, and thick frame. These are all very common traits as well, and require no special assumption or explanations on our part again. The same goes with being grumpy. Yet another similarity that is a particularly common trait among people in general. The description could, theoretically, match a large number of people, though one we know in specific does match it, but it doesn't mean it's him. If i said I met a tall, thickly build, blond hair guy who was rude to me, and you said you met someone of similar appearance, we wouldn't automatically assume they were the same person, because too many special circumstances are required for it to actually BE the same person. A coincidence of appearance is more likely.

However, with the other scenario, Galladon not glowing for some reason, this requires a large amount of special reasoning on our part. This is because for Galladon to be not glowing, he has to have some special way to hide it we aren't aware of, or for distance from his power to act differently than we've seen so far when it lessens. So far, from what we've seen, when an Elantrian is cut off from the power (or its lowered to a trickle) they become, as stated previously, shriveled nasty zombie guys. For the theory for him being cut off reverting him, this would have to completely flip-flop the understanding we have so far when taken into consideration.

As far as setting up some sort of glamer disguise before hand, we would have to assume that, despite prior evidence again, the Aon's wont weaken as they flow of the Dor is lessened (which, previously, they did when they were practically cut off from the Dor, but still had a small trickle)

Anyways, that's how i see it. Assuming they stopped glowing for some reason is way more complex an idea than allowing for there to be more than one person of similar looks and personality by coincidence.

Phew. That went longer than expected.

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2010, 05:19:12 PM »
One thing you should think on though is this, when the Elantrians were nasty blotchy Zombie-guys, the Dor wasn't slowed to a trickle, it was broken. It wasn't as much a pipe with less water pressure, but more of a pipe that's half clogged with muck. When the Aons were fixed, the "muck" was cleaned out. You got all the water, and it wasn't murky and disgusting.
However, if you go very, very far away, you will still get a trickle of that water, but it'll be clean. If you go incredibly far away, then wouldn't that water be no longer able to effect you? You would revert to normal.
This is, of course, going on the somewhat large assumption that the Elantrians genetic code and physical makeup aren't changed when they become Elantrians, instead they are saturated with the Dor. (And when the Dor was broken, the saturation was ineffective.)

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #86 on: September 09, 2010, 05:37:37 PM »
One thing you should think on though is this, when the Elantrians were nasty blotchy Zombie-guys, the Dor wasn't slowed to a trickle, it was broken. It wasn't as much a pipe with less water pressure, but more of a pipe that's half clogged with muck. When the Aons were fixed, the "muck" was cleaned out. You got all the water, and it wasn't murky and disgusting.
However, if you go very, very far away, you will still get a trickle of that water, but it'll be clean. If you go incredibly far away, then wouldn't that water be no longer able to effect you? You would revert to normal.
This is, of course, going on the somewhat large assumption that the Elantrians genetic code and physical makeup aren't changed when they become Elantrians, instead they are saturated with the Dor. (And when the Dor was broken, the saturation was ineffective.)


Hrmmm....i'm not so sure where you're getting the "filled with muck" part of it. As far as im aware, all we know about the breakage was that the Dor flowing through was slowed to a trickle, where/when was it said that it was being tainted as well?

Afterall, all that was done to "fix" it was to open the floodgates and let it pour back out. There wasn't any particular "cleansing" done that i remember, just a reopening of the "channels" so to speak.

Once again, i'm just convinced that "once an elantrian, always an elantrian" is how it would be working, since getting even a trickle of the power (tainted or not) they retain their physical changes (just lose their powers), and not "slightly revert" back to being normal

Of course, no elantrian has ever been fully without the Dor in some sense, so it's impossible for us to say what would happen (hey! anyone going to a signing anytime soon? This sounds like a beauty of a question to ask him!)
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2010, 07:02:35 PM »
Once again, i'm just convinced that "once an elantrian, always an elantrian" is how it would be working, since getting even a trickle of the power (tainted or not) they retain their physical changes (just lose their powers), and not "slightly revert" back to being normal
I would argue that's a different situation, though. When you become an Elantrian, you go through a transformation. In this case, it was just that there wasn't enough power to complete the transformation. That's why, for instance, the Elantrians' hearts didn't beat until the Aons were fixed.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #88 on: September 09, 2010, 07:05:53 PM »
Once again, i'm just convinced that "once an elantrian, always an elantrian" is how it would be working, since getting even a trickle of the power (tainted or not) they retain their physical changes (just lose their powers), and not "slightly revert" back to being normal
I would argue that's a different situation, though. When you become an Elantrian, you go through a transformation. In this case, it was just that there wasn't enough power to complete the transformation. That's why, for instance, the Elantrians' hearts didn't beat until the Aons were fixed.

But what of the elantrians who were all ready transformed? The same happened to them, did it not? IIRC, they were put into the exact same state as the newly transformed ones.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2010, 07:18:48 PM »
Once again, i'm just convinced that "once an elantrian, always an elantrian" is how it would be working, since getting even a trickle of the power (tainted or not) they retain their physical changes (just lose their powers), and not "slightly revert" back to being normal
I would argue that's a different situation, though. When you become an Elantrian, you go through a transformation. In this case, it was just that there wasn't enough power to complete the transformation. That's why, for instance, the Elantrians' hearts didn't beat until the Aons were fixed.

But what of the elantrians who were all ready transformed? The same happened to them, did it not? IIRC, they were put into the exact same state as the newly transformed ones.
Which is where my theory comes from, with the Elantrians being sustained by the Dor, instead of transformed by it.
On the "Muck" thing, what I mean isn't as much that there was actual "Muck" in the Dor, merely that the break caused the Dor to react as a water pipe would when clogged with filth.
And again, this is just wild speculation based loosely on facts.