Author Topic: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*  (Read 31788 times)

Terrisman243

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2010, 06:13:36 PM »
I agree with Grumpy being Galladon, and I think that Shundel might be Blunt. Oh, and I think Raoden and Galladon were in the prologue talking to Elohkar. I just need to find page references.

Maybe whatever Odium did is what made Raoden not-glowy. Maybe he destroyed Elantris. That would probably explain it.

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2010, 06:24:02 PM »
I agree with Grumpy being Galladon, and I think that Shundel might be Blunt. Oh, and I think Raoden and Galladon were in the prologue talking to Elohkar. I just need to find page references.

Maybe whatever Odium did is what made Raoden not-glowy. Maybe he destroyed Elantris. That would probably explain it.

Ehhh, I think that has more to do with them being far from Elantris than anything else. It seems most likely that Odium already went to Sel before the events of Elantris.
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zarepath

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2010, 06:29:54 PM »
I'm pretty certain that Elantrians are looking for Hoid.  Whether one of them is Galladon or not (and I'm betting that he is), there had to have been a reason for Brandon to put this into an interlude.  The whole section offers very little except to show that people are looking for Hoid (which is made obvious by an epigraph elsewhere)... unless this section is added just so that we can do what we're doing now: speculating. 

The narration draws attention to the line that the fisherman overhears, the one with the Dula language in it.  I think Brandon wants us to wonder if they're from Elantris or not, and he probably has it all in there specifically for his hardcore fans.

Considering that there are already mentions of shards visiting Sel and creating disaster, another Elantris mix doesn't seem too ridiculous.  Especially considering that Brandon's made it very clear that all his epic fantasy fiction goes into one single universe. 

I do seem to recall someone asking if other characters from other worlds will show up again in tWoK, and I think the answer may have been "no," except Hoid.  Not sure about that.  Anybody know what I'm thinking of?

happyman

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2010, 06:40:20 PM »
I'm pretty certain that Elantrians are looking for Hoid.  Whether one of them is Galladon or not (and I'm betting that he is), there had to have been a reason for Brandon to put this into an interlude.  The whole section offers very little except to show that people are looking for Hoid (which is made obvious by an epigraph elsewhere)... unless this section is added just so that we can do what we're doing now: speculating. 

The narration draws attention to the line that the fisherman overhears, the one with the Dula language in it.  I think Brandon wants us to wonder if they're from Elantris or not, and he probably has it all in there specifically for his hardcore fans.

Considering that there are already mentions of shards visiting Sel and creating disaster, another Elantris mix doesn't seem too ridiculous.  Especially considering that Brandon's made it very clear that all his epic fantasy fiction goes into one single universe. 

I do seem to recall someone asking if other characters from other worlds will show up again in tWoK, and I think the answer may have been "no," except Hoid.  Not sure about that.  Anybody know what I'm thinking of?

Since some people don't believe the epigraphs were written by Hoid, this interlude could be considered solid evidence for Hoid's authorship of the epigraphs.  In that sense, it does serve a narrative purpose.

Also, it adds scope to the series.  That's nontrivial as well.
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Chaos

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2010, 06:42:16 PM »
I do seem to recall someone asking if other characters from other worlds will show up again in tWoK, and I think the answer may have been "no," except Hoid.  Not sure about that.  Anybody know what I'm thinking of?

Hehe... if you can find the quote, that would certainly hurt this theory.

I'm pretty certain that Elantrians are looking for Hoid.  Whether one of them is Galladon or not (and I'm betting that he is), there had to have been a reason for Brandon to put this into an interlude.  The whole section offers very little except to show that people are looking for Hoid (which is made obvious by an epigraph elsewhere)... unless this section is added just so that we can do what we're doing now: speculating. 

The narration draws attention to the line that the fisherman overhears, the one with the Dula language in it.  I think Brandon wants us to wonder if they're from Elantris or not, and he probably has it all in there specifically for his hardcore fans.

Considering that there are already mentions of shards visiting Sel and creating disaster, another Elantris mix doesn't seem too ridiculous.  Especially considering that Brandon's made it very clear that all his epic fantasy fiction goes into one single universe. 

I do seem to recall someone asking if other characters from other worlds will show up again in tWoK, and I think the answer may have been "no," except Hoid.  Not sure about that.  Anybody know what I'm thinking of?

Since some people don't believe the epigraphs were written by Hoid, this interlude could be considered solid evidence for Hoid's authorship of the epigraphs.  In that sense, it does serve a narrative purpose.

Also, it adds scope to the series.  That's nontrivial as well.

Yeah, the interludes are primarily there to add scope.

But hey, happyman, if you can falsify the idea that Hoid wrote that letter and if you propose another candidate, I'd love you forever :P
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Munin

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2010, 06:45:37 PM »
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).

But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2010, 06:58:42 PM »
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).

But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.

Well, I definitely don't think its another Shardholder, because Shardholders never seem to refer to other Shardholders by their original name, but by the Shard itself. Shards talk about each other not in terms of Ati, Leras, and Rayse, but Ruin, Preservation, and Odium. It's too consistent of an effect.

Whoever wrote the epigraphs is someone separate from Shardholders.
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happyman

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #67 on: September 06, 2010, 07:11:05 PM »
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).

But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.

Oh, I'm firmly of the belief that the person writing the letter is Hoid.  That interlude is the best evidence around, although there is plenty more.  You're overstating your case, Munin.

The person writing the letter has the following attributes:

(1) Knew the Shardbearers personally before they bore the shards.  This is supported by the references to Ati and Rayse.

(2) Has observed the events on multiple worlds.  References to Sel and Ati make this clear.

(3) Has a quest of some sort, some goal he is trying to reach, which involves personal motivations against Rayse and Bavadin.

(4) Is being chased by the 17th shard, but has successfully laid down a false trail for them.

(5) Seriously needs help.

(6) Is directly involved in the events of the war that is presumably coming.

Hoid satisfies all of these conditions easily.  This is more rigid than you might think; Sazed, for instance, is ruled out by condition (1).  Most entities who would satisfy conditions 1-3 and 5-6 would have to be somebody new, somebody we have never yet seen.  This isn't impossible, but we just don't know enough to propose anything.  Condition (5) does suggest that the author is not uberpowerful, but given what Odium has done this probably doesn't mean much.

By contrast, condition 4 is ridiculously specific, and exactly what we see in the interlude under discussion, where the searchers look for Hoid by name.  This point alone suggests Hoid as the author, barring really strong evidence otherwise.

Also, Hoid has been seen to directly interfere on Shardworlds, whereas we have no canonical evidence of other interference, so condition 6 suggests Hoid much more strongly than it does any other entity.  Condition 3 would go a long way to explaining Hoid's behavior in other books.

In addition, just how many planethoppers are there floating around?  All we've seen is Hoid and the 17th shard.  The reference pool really is quite small here.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #68 on: September 06, 2010, 07:29:25 PM »
That... that rigorously describes my feelings in a far clearer way than I ever could have written :P

If, um, you aren't going to join 17thshard.com, can I repost what you just said there on those forums? Your argument is fantastic.
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happyman

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #69 on: September 06, 2010, 07:39:24 PM »
That... that rigorously describes my feelings in a far clearer way than I ever could have written :P

If, um, you aren't going to join 17thshard.com, can I repost what you just said there on those forums? Your argument is fantastic.

Go ahead.  It's far from bulletproof, but it's the best we can do at the moment.  Hoid really is the best candidate by a long shot.
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Munin

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2010, 08:54:25 PM »
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).

But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.

Oh, I'm firmly of the belief that the person writing the letter is Hoid.  That interlude is the best evidence around, although there is plenty more.  You're overstating your case, Munin.

The person writing the letter has the following attributes:

(1) Knew the Shardbearers personally before they bore the shards.  This is supported by the references to Ati and Rayse.

(2) Has observed the events on multiple worlds.  References to Sel and Ati make this clear.

(3) Has a quest of some sort, some goal he is trying to reach, which involves personal motivations against Rayse and Bavadin.

(4) Is being chased by the 17th shard, but has successfully laid down a false trail for them.

(5) Seriously needs help.

(6) Is directly involved in the events of the war that is presumably coming.

Hoid satisfies all of these conditions easily.  This is more rigid than you might think; Sazed, for instance, is ruled out by condition (1).  Most entities who would satisfy conditions 1-3 and 5-6 would have to be somebody new, somebody we have never yet seen.  This isn't impossible, but we just don't know enough to propose anything.  Condition (5) does suggest that the author is not uberpowerful, but given what Odium has done this probably doesn't mean much.

By contrast, condition 4 is ridiculously specific, and exactly what we see in the interlude under discussion, where the searchers look for Hoid by name.  This point alone suggests Hoid as the author, barring really strong evidence otherwise.

Also, Hoid has been seen to directly interfere on Shardworlds, whereas we have no canonical evidence of other interference, so condition 6 suggests Hoid much more strongly than it does any other entity.  Condition 3 would go a long way to explaining Hoid's behavior in other books.

In addition, just how many planethoppers are there floating around?  All we've seen is Hoid and the 17th shard.  The reference pool really is quite small here.
Maybe I'm missing something about Hoid, but how do we know that he fulfills conditions 1 , 3, 5, and 6? So far, he hasn't seemed like he was seeking help. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't expressed personal knowledge of any of the shardholders. He hasn't mentioned any motivations involving Rayse or Bavadin. And we don't know for sure if the people looking for him were from the 17th shard.

And it's unclear if he's even directly involved. At best, he's been an observer so far. A sarcastic observer, true, but that's basically it.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2010, 09:17:02 PM »
The main reason that I'm convinced the Dula is Galladon is because most Dula are described as being unfailingly optimistic. Now, I'm sure there are more exceptions than just Galladon, but it still makes it more likely to be him.

And yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the part 2 epigraphs are written by Hoid. But again, I think there's not enough specific evidence there to really get behind the idea.

I think it might be a dula. However i doubt it's Galladon. He would have said kolo and sule not friend. there is no reason to hide their language on another planet. If he said something truly in the dula language he would have said more than one word.
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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2010, 09:30:58 PM »
Quote
Maybe I'm missing something about Hoid, but how do we know that he fulfills conditions 1 , 3, 5, and 6? So far, he hasn't seemed like he was seeking help. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't expressed personal knowledge of any of the shardholders. He hasn't mentioned any motivations involving Rayse or Bavadin. And we don't know for sure if the people looking for him were from the 17th shard.

And it's unclear if he's even directly involved. At best, he's been an observer so far. A sarcastic observer, true, but that's basically it.

Uhhh, well, Brandon said that Hoid was there when Adonalsium was shattered. Thus, he's the only such candidate we know of who could possibly remember that their names were Ati or Rayse.

If you interpret things this way, certain other quotes no longer seem enigmatic. To wit:

Quote
“People see in stories what they’re looking for, my young friend.” He reached behind his boulder, pulling out a pack and slinging it on his shoulder. “I have no answers for you. Most days, I feel I never have had any answers. I’ve come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead.

He's come to Roshar, to chase an old acquaintance--Rayse--but he ends up spending his time hiding from instead, since Rayse controls Odium, and if Rayse finds him, Hoid will die.

Makes sense to me.

Furthermore, we know that the Seventeenth Shard planet hops, so if there are planet hoppers searching for Hoid, it's pretty logical that it's the Seventeenth Shard.
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Munin

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2010, 09:51:01 PM »
Quote
Maybe I'm missing something about Hoid, but how do we know that he fulfills conditions 1 , 3, 5, and 6? So far, he hasn't seemed like he was seeking help. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't expressed personal knowledge of any of the shardholders. He hasn't mentioned any motivations involving Rayse or Bavadin. And we don't know for sure if the people looking for him were from the 17th shard.

And it's unclear if he's even directly involved. At best, he's been an observer so far. A sarcastic observer, true, but that's basically it.

Uhhh, well, Brandon said that Hoid was there when Adonalsium was shattered. Thus, he's the only such candidate we know of who could possibly remember that their names were Ati or Rayse.

If you interpret things this way, certain other quotes no longer seem enigmatic. To wit:

Quote
“People see in stories what they’re looking for, my young friend.” He reached behind his boulder, pulling out a pack and slinging it on his shoulder. “I have no answers for you. Most days, I feel I never have had any answers. I’ve come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead.

He's come to Roshar, to chase an old acquaintance--Rayse--but he ends up spending his time hiding from instead, since Rayse controls Odium, and if Rayse finds him, Hoid will die.

Makes sense to me.

Furthermore, we know that the Seventeenth Shard planet hops, so if there are planet hoppers searching for Hoid, it's pretty logical that it's the Seventeenth Shard.
Fair enough. I wasn't aware that Hoid was present at the Shattering.
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happyman

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Re: First Interlude *Way of Kings SPOILERS*
« Reply #74 on: September 06, 2010, 09:59:18 PM »
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).

But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.

Oh, I'm firmly of the belief that the person writing the letter is Hoid.  That interlude is the best evidence around, although there is plenty more.  You're overstating your case, Munin.

The person writing the letter has the following attributes:

(1) Knew the Shardbearers personally before they bore the shards.  This is supported by the references to Ati and Rayse.

(2) Has observed the events on multiple worlds.  References to Sel and Ati make this clear.

(3) Has a quest of some sort, some goal he is trying to reach, which involves personal motivations against Rayse and Bavadin.

(4) Is being chased by the 17th shard, but has successfully laid down a false trail for them.

(5) Seriously needs help.

(6) Is directly involved in the events of the war that is presumably coming.

Hoid satisfies all of these conditions easily.  This is more rigid than you might think; Sazed, for instance, is ruled out by condition (1).  Most entities who would satisfy conditions 1-3 and 5-6 would have to be somebody new, somebody we have never yet seen.  This isn't impossible, but we just don't know enough to propose anything.  Condition (5) does suggest that the author is not uberpowerful, but given what Odium has done this probably doesn't mean much.

By contrast, condition 4 is ridiculously specific, and exactly what we see in the interlude under discussion, where the searchers look for Hoid by name.  This point alone suggests Hoid as the author, barring really strong evidence otherwise.

Also, Hoid has been seen to directly interfere on Shardworlds, whereas we have no canonical evidence of other interference, so condition 6 suggests Hoid much more strongly than it does any other entity.  Condition 3 would go a long way to explaining Hoid's behavior in other books.

In addition, just how many planethoppers are there floating around?  All we've seen is Hoid and the 17th shard.  The reference pool really is quite small here.
Maybe I'm missing something about Hoid, but how do we know that he fulfills conditions 1 , 3, 5, and 6? So far, he hasn't seemed like he was seeking help. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't expressed personal knowledge of any of the shardholders. He hasn't mentioned any motivations involving Rayse or Bavadin. And we don't know for sure if the people looking for him were from the 17th shard.

And it's unclear if he's even directly involved. At best, he's been an observer so far. A sarcastic observer, true, but that's basically it.

Hmmm.   My support for #1 and #3 are from Brandon's statements about Hoid, not from the text of the books.  Apparently, Brandon said Hoid was there when Adonalsium shattered, which makes him a very good fit for #1.  He also said that Hoid had his own goals and motivations that he was pursuing in the background of the other shard-world stories.  Basically, Hoid is not a passive character.  He just never ran into the main characters before except in passing.  That's why #3 is a good fit.

Note especially his discussion with Kaladin, where he said he came "there" (presumably, Roshar) in order to find an old friend, but now he spends all his time avoiding him.  (This is compatible with him avoiding Odium, or even the person the letter was to.)  Hoid is doing something.  He's not just an observer.  Or do you think he name-drops Adonalsium just for kicks?  (Incidentally, that negates your argument about him not knowing anything about the shards.  Anyone who knows that name is involved.)  No, regardless of what else you think, Hoid is an active character.

#5 is compatible with Hoid.  It doesn't rule him out.  I was just trying to carefully distill the contents of the epigraphs.

#6 is also compatible with Hoid, especially the way he showed up in the right place and the right time to greet the last Herald as he returned.  Again, it doesn't rule him out.  His actions, when interpreted in the context of #6, make sense.  Yes, he could have been there for some other reason (do you really believe that?)  I mean, his whole conversation in the epilogue is headed towards the ending of the book---he was waiting for the Herald to show up, and seemed dismayed at the trouble he was bringing with him.  No, Hoid is up to his ears in the War, even if you don't accept that he's the author of the epigraphs.

As for the people searching not being the 17th shard, give me a break.  Get real.  I've seen this kind of argument before on the internet, and I don't intend to get stuck in it because it doesn't go anywhere.  Can't prove a negative, that kind of thing.  You can't prove to me that I'm not a hallucinating turnip, either.  Seriously pointless.  I grant you the technicality:  Brandon didn't come and say outright that the searchers were from the 17th shard; he just implied it heavily.  So what?  That doesn't change the fact that that's who they are and Hoid is who they're are chasing.  As I said, #4 is the real kicker for showing who the sender is, and this is why.

This is a classic case of Occam's razor.  Assuming that the author is Hoid doesn't answer all the mysteries, but all the pieces we do have, fit.  Assuming it is someone else leaves pieces dangling all over the place, to absolutely no purpose, narrative or in-world logic.  Rather than having two sets of planet-hoppers (Hoid, 17th shard), we would have three (Hoid, 17th shard, whoever the searchers in pure lake were).  Rather than having one set of planet-hopping searchers lost, we would have two lost groups of searchers, in almost identical situations, just with different targets.  (One would be hunting for Hoid, and the other for the mysterious author.)  Hoid would be on Roshar trying to stop Odium (assuming Hoid is doing anything esle seems... unlikely), and so would this unknown author.  We create double sets of extremely distinctive traits simply for the sake of not making assumptions... not bloody likely.
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