Author Topic: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L  (Read 4774 times)

Silk

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June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« on: June 24, 2010, 05:13:44 AM »
...it's still Monday, right?

Ahem. In all seriousness, I'm sorry this is so late. The changes I was making to it took way longer than I wanted them to, and there wasn't much point in sending the piece out without those done. Mea culpa.

I tagged this for language, but really it's pretty mild. Content shouldn't be a problem otherwise.

Thanks for reading, as always. Don't be nice.

ETA: For clarity's sake, this is intended as a complete short story.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 10:24:17 PM by Silk »

lethalfalcon

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2010, 07:19:01 AM »
My my my, two days late, eleven thousand words... you're just breaking all the rules. You deserve a sound talking to... okay, I'm done.

I'll be honest, my first thoughts as I was reading this were ones of "oh no, nothing's happening. Please don't give me this much to read with nothing going on." But then I remembered that you're one of those silly people that likes short stories. This definitely isn't novel material. Not that you couldn't do more with it, but the way it is now is definitely short story-ish.

With that in mind, it went a little better. Yes, very little outwardly happens. You build up a lot of characterization with Aryl and Janna, though,  and show a lot of internal conflict. These are weak points in my own writing, so I really can't be certain if it's truly good or not, but it certainly sounded good.

Your setting ain't all that bad, either. It was a little rough visualizing some of it (the entire city is a bit foggy in my head, although individual parts of it stand out better), but then again, most people wouldn't spend a lot of time doting on the city they lived in, even if they were transforming it into something much better. Still, it could be good to give a few more visual cues as to how much things have really changed.

One of the bigger problems I have is that some of your "sections" go a long time without me knowing exactly whose section it is--Janna's or Aryl's. The second section of both Aryl and Janna (Janna moreso) are troublesome, since it goes almost a page each time before "she" is given a name. Most of the rest are fine.

Your writing is very... stylized. There are a lot of sentence fragments, which I would normally get after someone for. However, I know you're capable of speaking in complete sentences, so I instead took it as a more personal inside-the-head-of-the-character type of narrative. People think in fragments all the time. So, not really a problem, except there were a few places it made reading a little bumpy. Those have been noted in the line-edits.

Overall, it's an interesting story. I would certainly have liked to see more external conflict... maybe more of the resistance that was mentioned, or perhaps some uppity sailor who didn't like the cut of their jib... it would have been interesting to see how someone like Aryl or Janna handled the situation. I guess I'm looking for it because it just reminds me of my own life: too much responsibility, no time to myself, etc. I envy Aryl. :P
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Shivertongue

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2010, 12:09:09 PM »
That was...very interesting. In a very good way.

First of all, I loved the writing. It was very clear and very translucent. The whole story felt more like a series of pictures in my mind rather than words on a screen. Obviously, this is a good thing.

Aryl and Janna (who I keep typing as 'Jannas', a character in one of my own stories :P ) are interesting. It wasn't too hard for me to determine who was the viewpoint for each section. You didn't reveal them by name until a bit late in some spots, but I also noticed that, unless I'm mistaken, Aryl's sections are written in present tense, whereas Janna's are in past. It could be slightly jarring at time, moving from present into past and vice-versa, but mostly it flowed pretty well. I only wonder what the reason for this is.

The conflict is entirely internal, which gives it a feeling of 'nothings really happening'. Obviously, this isn't the case, but it comes across that way until the very end. I wasn't really surprised by the end; the lack of interest anyone has in the city seemed to telegraph that one of our viewpoints, despite how much they've put into this project, was going to leave. I suspected Aryl, and was proven right.

And I think I just figured out why the shift in tenses. Aryl, if I'm not mistaken, is more present-oriented. She focuses on what is happening in the present, and with the Anchor thriving, all there is to focus on it managing it. Compared to setting it up and getting the project going, this lacks excitement. She's able to see her life stagnating, not going anywhere (or, at least, not going where she wants it to) because of this mindset.

Janna, on the other hand, is more past-minded. She remembers and thinks on things after they've happened, and is able to think on the past and what has occurred, see where they started and what they have since accomplished. Which is why, I think, she stayed while Aryl left; Janna could not give up on what they have accomplished, after all the work they had done, while Aryl didn't see a need for her presence any more, as the Anchor was successful. She didn't see herself as needed anymore, and felt she needed to move on to accomplish more.

I hope all of that made sense. It does it my head. (Keep in mind, though, that I just watched all three Lord of the Rings movies with RiffTrax in one sitting, and I'm probably not thinking too clearly.)

That sudden realization threw off the rest of my train of thought, but I don't think there was anything else I wanted to comment on. I would have liked to see a bit more external conflict, but at the same time realize it might not have fit the tone of the story. It comes across as very naval-gazy, but manages to avoid over-angstyness, so this can be forgiven.

A very strong submission, overall. One of the few short stories I've read that actually works for me as a short story. I don't read a lot of short stories, though, so take that as you will :P
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 12:14:21 PM by Shivertongue »
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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2010, 08:21:17 PM »
Falcon: Scold me all you want about being late, but I asked before submitting those eleven thousand words. ;)

Yes, sorry, I probably should have mentioned that in my email--this is intended as a complete short story. (Novelette technically, but who's counting, right?)

I've wondered about the lack of external conflict before. Readers are probably going to expect it, but I also don't want to throw it in there just because.

Shiver: Yes, that's a reason for the tense shifts (which I've also debated long and hard about). The other thing is that I just feel their voices work better in the the different tenses... which might be a different way of saying the same thing. Hrm.

Thanks for the comments, guys. :)

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2010, 07:32:53 AM »
Falcon: Scold me all you want about being late, but I asked before submitting those eleven thousand words. ;)

Yes, sorry, I probably should have mentioned that in my email--this is intended as a complete short story. (Novelette technically, but who's counting, right?)

I've wondered about the lack of external conflict before. Readers are probably going to expect it, but I also don't want to throw it in there just because.

Shiver: Yes, that's a reason for the tense shifts (which I've also debated long and hard about). The other thing is that I just feel their voices work better in the the different tenses... which might be a different way of saying the same thing. Hrm.

Thanks for the comments, guys. :)

Yay, I was right!

Reading it again, I have to agree. The voices work much better in the different tenses. I didn't really notice it beforehand, but then I didn't realize such aspects about the characters beforehand. I made the realization I did as I was writing up the response above. I'm wondering if everyone who read it realized it the way I did, or if maybe I was just slow and everyone else picked it up right away.

It could be this is one of those stories you have read a few times to pick up on everything. I just read it again, and found I enjoyed it much more than I did the first time. This might be because I knew these aspects of the characters, and I didn't spend half the story confused.

Something I neglected to mention before, was that I like the mental image of the city built into the side of a cliff. Parts of it are a bit fuzzy, but the image I have of it is almost breathtaking (especially when I imagine a nighttime scene; are there electric lights, or is their technology not quite that advanced?) I realize the story isn't necessarily about the city, but I would like a few more details about the setting you have created, although if it can't be done without detracting from the feel and tone of the story itself, I wouldn't do it.

The tone is another element I enjoy in this. It doesn't feel fast-paced, but it isn't slow either; both characters are sort of just meandering through life right now, wondering what's going to come next, looking back (or looking on) their accomplishment with The Anchor. This gives it a bit of an introspective scale, but not to the point of pure navel-gazing. This might not work so well if there was an external conflict, now that I think about it....

At the same time, I think we spend a bit too much time in the characters heads, and this adds to the tone of making the story move slower. And when it moves slower, it makes me crave some external strife or problem all the more. It doesn't feel as if there's any tension here, I guess is what I'm saying.

Keep in mind, though, that I don't write short stories, so maybe what I'm saying doesn't apply to them.
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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2010, 09:07:36 AM »
Heh. I'm not surprised that the setting is a little fuzzy. The manuscript's been around for about two years, but the city just got redesigned, ahem,  last weekend. They wouldn't be electric lights--I'm thinking about an 18th-century tech level for this story (so just shy of the Industrial Revolution, really). There may be magical lights, though;  I haven't quite decided yet.

Lack of external conflict is fine by me for this story, but if you're feeling a lack of tension that's a problem (since it's just as essential to short stories as to novels). I had hoped it wouldn't be, but...

I could try to bring out the tension caused by Aryl's departure a bit more, but I'm worried that it would be too easy to give away Aryl's departure too early.

And/or, I could perhaps make a little more of the tension between Aryl, Janna and Co. versus the rest of the city. My worry here, though, is that doing so might put too much focus on a conflict that I don't actually plan to resolve within the parameters of this story. Someone who read an earlier draft (the Aryl and Janna vs. everyone else aspect of it hasn't changed) commented that it felt a bit like a Chekhov's gun that was never fired, but that he felt this was a very minor issue. I wouldn't want to exascerbate this, so I'm a bit leery of making false promises.

Still, though... I know this is all but impossible to assess without actually seeing it in action, but would doing one or both of those help fill the hole that you're feeling, do you think? or would I just be breaking it farther?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 12:20:54 AM by Silk »

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2010, 09:29:30 AM »
Well, off the top of my head, I don't think having Aryl and Janna vs everyone else would work for the story. Someone trying to shut them down, for whatever reason, feels like a more novel-length conflict, is more external, and would make it seem more like a cheesy comedy where the plucky underdogs have to raise enough money to save the youth center and it all culminates in a dance-off or something. And while I feel epic dance-offs are sorely lacking in fantasy these days, it wouldn't work.

The conflict there is, and the tension there is, is all character-based. So I'd keep in with the characters. Tension between Aryl and Janna, or Janna and her father, or just more obvious internal tension for Aryl and/or Janna. Not too angsty, of course, but enough for the reader to know that there is a problem. Showing more internal conflict for Aryl might be enough to give it that tension, without seeming angsty, and without telegraphing the ending too much.

In fact, now that I think on it, doing that with Aryl might work best. I'd have to give it another read to be certain, but it seemed throughout the story that things were going hunky-dory for her, and that she seemed happy, but then all of a sudden she leaves.

It is a bit hard to see without seeing it directly. I can only suggest trying some different ideas and see which works best and keeps the tone of the story. I can only suggest to stick with internal... or maybe have a small external conflict in that they have opposition, but together they've managed to keep it from becoming too big of a problem. But then Aryl leaves, and then... I dunno. Just a random train of thought I lost in the midst of typing it.
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Renoard

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2010, 01:06:14 PM »
Sorry to take so long.  Not ready to comment yet.  I had to clear my palate and I'll need to reread.  But one comment, in a world with such a dramatic magic system and such a developed elite, it seems that electric lights in the 18'th century isn't so very far fetched.  After all, Rome had running water, flush toilets and drycleaners.  Who knows what might have happened differently in a world where people could be resculpted into super-soldiers?  There might have been no need for Charles Martell and Frances greatest gift to the world, 800 years of crippling war.
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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2010, 07:18:22 PM »
Hmm. That's not a bad point, Renoard--I'll give it some thought.  And not to worry, whenever you can get to it is fine.

Shiver: You're right, which was why I was shying away from the external conflict to begin with. This story is really about the two of them, and broadening it out like that wouldn't work.

I was re-reading the manuscript before I went to bed last night, and I realized what the problem is. Too much of the tension and conflict occurs/is expanded on in moments of reflection rather than in moments of interaction. That's why it feels navel-gaze-y.

Fixing that part of it just got much easier. :)

Renoard

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 10:40:07 AM »
Okayyyyy.

It must have been really late last night, because my rationale for electric lights is not remotely based on your text here.

Of course the prose is clean and well spoken which I've come to expect from you. Nothing remarkable there.

One particular timing problem is that Braeden seems to approach Aryl to discuss his trip.  She manipulates him into studying, he goes inside to read and while he's reading Janna shows up certain that Aryl has been gone for weeks.

As prologue to a novel it would work pretty well, but as a short story is lacks a real plot arc.
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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 07:53:34 PM »
Yeah, I completely failed to notice that scene with Braeden until after I submitted.

Thanks for the comments. :)

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 08:05:24 PM »
This was a good read for me.  You've got the writing down well, well enough in fact, that I'm pretty confident in your ability as an author to accomplish what you intend with your work.  I suppose then, my comments are going to be more open-ended questions about what you intended artistically than they are open criticism.

1)   Conflict
Conflict doesn’t need to be external, of course.  It doesn’t have to be well understood from the onset either.  Certain people might have difficulty with these, but that only means that the story isn’t for them.  That said, there are certain things that must be present in every conflict, and I feel that some of them were lacking here.
The conflict should be distinct by the end.  On the first two viewpoint sections, the second really since I felt little was established in the first, the main dramatic questions I’m asking myself are: Will the city allow the Anchor be built? and Will Jana be able to complete her song?  What I actually got from the story was a solution to an interpersonal conflict with Aryl that doesn’t get introduced until ¾ of the way through.  This is a problem for the reader because he/she doesn’t know what to root for, and worse, still doesn’t know by the end who she SHOULD have rooted for.  Furthermore, I still don’t understand how being looked up to is such a conflict for Aryl.  People usually like being respected, and it’s hard for me to believe honestly that someone would feel trapped by it unless she’s successfully shown as a really unusual character in this respect (which I wasn’t shown).  My question is what you intended for the conflict, what you intended to show by it.  There’s plenty of fiction about artists looking for inspiration, people feeling trapped, etc.  A lot of these themes are common.  It just depends on what you were feeling as an artist when you put it to pen.  
There has to be strong opposition.  Opposition brings a healthy amount of doubt to the questions posed by the drama.  If the story makes you ask whether Janna will finish her song, her situation and her character need to be painted such that there is serious doubt whether that will happen.  There should be strong obstacles, whether internal or external.  Even in the most passive fiction, like romance, the best romance is that where the romantic interest remains mysterious, and there’s a strong chance that the person is just too distant to end up with the heroine.  There’s a short story called “The Cathedral” where the conflict is all about whether the protagonist is going to feel sympathy for a blind man, and it works because the author shows him to be insensitive in the beginning.  Whatever you’re feeling as an artist for the conflict, nearly all of your attention in the beginning of the piece should be about framing the issue, and specifically, setting doubt in the mind of the reader that the issue is to be resolved favorably.

2)   Structure
One problem flows into another.  Because they’re brief, short stories have much less license to deviate from their basic structure – introduce the conflict, heighten it, resolve it, reframe it.  In what I read, conflicts seem to be resolved at odd times and new ones posed far too late in the work.
About halfway through the short, the reader finds out that the Anchor was built successfully.  That’s one duck shot down, and the reader is spending energy looking for another.  But instead of either finding a new issue quickly or going back to old ones, the characters spent time watching things, walking to City Hall, Aryl and Janna both spend a page talking to a new character named Braeden, who contributes nothing to the drama.  And then ¾ of the way through, Aryl starts feeling trapped, seemingly out of nowhere.  This is a new duck, but there’s not enough time to shoot it down.  Instead, the reader is left with questions about why Aryl left.  Basically, you are going to have problems in any short story where the characters are congratulating themselves 2/3 of the way through on having solved a major conflict.  If you don’t want construction of the Anchor as a conflict, it shouldn’t be introduced as something the characters themselves are doubtful of, and if you want Aryl feeling trapped as the conflict, it needs to be restructured.  My question is what you want out of this story as an artist.  Perhaps you need to begin the story at a different point in time you did in order to key up the conflict you wanted, or perhaps end it after giving more explanation than you did.  Only you can know.  
Other problems with structure are that too much time is spent by characters watching things that don’t contribute to the drama.  Janna gazes at the city, watches people by the docks and thinks of her mother, etc.  Along that same parallel, too much of the dialogue is spent on welcomes, good byes, “There you are!”, etc.  It feels forced, like you realize that there should be something there but you don’t know what it is.  Principles of Structure will tell you what it is.  Trying to imagine what the characters would do in commonplace situations will not.  
  
3)   Character
Having read the short, I’m still asking myself why there were so many characters.  There are three that I wanted to care about - Janna, Aryl and Janna’s father.  The last is shown very little, and does little for the drama.  The second gets swept from under my nose without any explanation.  Even the third ends up being nothing more than an empty vessel from which the reader observes the consequences for Aryl’s decision to leave.  Good characters in drama are those whose decisions matter in the resolution of the conflict.  I see little decisiveness here.  It doesn’t mean that their decisions weren’t important, just that I didn’t see them making any.  The most glaring example of this is that Aryl just shows up missing.  She starts feeling trapped, but she doesn’t decide to leave out where the reader can see.  This is frustrating.
Another problem is that the characters do not appear distinct.  I understood by the end that Janna was an artist and Aryl a scholar, but I never quite grasp how these roles affect them personally, what’s the difference between the two, etc.  Both characters seem to speak with the same voice.  Even if the viewpoint is a distant third-person narrator who speaks with the same voice for all characters, the characters should then be given opportunities in dialogue to showcase their uniqueness.  All I got were hellos, goodbyes, thank you’s, and some teasing banter that avoids serious establishment of character by its very nature of being teasing banter.  Even cliché flamboyant artist/bookish scholar would’ve worked for me.  It’s something.  Again, you probably have a good idea of these characters’ personal traits, motivations, frustrations.  We just need to see it in pen.    

4)   Style

The change in tense was distracting.  I understand that you’ve spent some thought on this, but allow me to dissent.  I believe that there is a bright line between what you’re showing to a reader and how you’re showing it.  What you’re showing makes two stories as different as night and day, the real center of writing as art.  But how you’re showing it is simply an obstacle.  It’s an inconvenience that we have to use words to evoke images, emotions and people.  As artists, I think we shouldn’t make that any more of an inconvenience than we have to.  A painter should never paint with spaghetti sauce, for example.  I would not alter the tense of two characters unless there is a reason in the narrative for why you can.
Arabian Nights, for example, has a character shown in the third person viewpoint talking with another character about what he’s done in the past.  The stories this character tells are told in first person, as if he is speaking to the second character.  Other stories that pull this off are those that involve a character in the present tense, but once in a while she reads excerpts from another character’s diary.  Maybe Aryl leaves her diary behind when she leaves, and some of the drama is Janna finding out through her diary why she decided to leave.  You know what you want from your characters better than I do, of course.  I’m just saying that unless there’s a reason in the narrative for the tense shifts, it’s distracting instead of expressive.
Another issue with style is your viewpoint.  I’m never quite sure how deep I’m seeing into a character’s motivations, especially when I’m in the viewpoint of another character.  Also, a character will ask themselves a question in internal monologue that I’m not sure whether I should have an answer as a reader, or sometimes what they are even asking themselves and thinking about in the first place.  Other times the characters, even though they are so young, seem to know in perfect detail certain complex things.  For example, Aryl somehow knows exactly why the city has a certain attitude toward the Anchor – that sailors think scholars belong elsewhere.  If she’s guessing at things of that nature, that’s ok, but it doesn’t come across that way.  It’s too easy for me to get distracted by the realization that an omniscient author wrote this.

I hope I’ve been able to help some, and I wanted to say that I really enjoyed the read.  I hope to read more of your writing in the future.

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2010, 08:32:03 PM »
Thank you. :)

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2010, 07:28:25 PM »
I liked the story – it’s different from what I usually read, far more internally focussed, with a feel of a slower pace (which is interesting because years go by in about 11,000 words). I did have a moment halfway through that I wondered if anything was going to happen.

I don’t usually have that problem with stories that have a more external threat, but in this case an external problem would feel tagged on. While the characters think of their problems you might want to try to make those issues more pressing to them and in that way create some conflicts. Come to think of it that’s what I really missed, some clear, urgent, conflicts for the characters they need to resolve.
 
Another thing I both liked, as well as have some difficulties with, is the writing style of this story. You chose your style deliberately I think, with short sentences to increase the feel of the internal nature of the characters and their problems, but there are instances where the fragments were jarring, as if you’d forgotten to finish what you started. Again I realize that’s what happens when people think, and that this style should work because of it, but it doesn’t, at least not all the time - my internal editor wouldn’t let me.

The switch between past tense for Janna and present tense for Aryl though was brilliant, though mileage my vary, it worked really well for me.

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Re: June 23 - Silk - Fall, Stars, Fall - L
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2010, 08:39:27 PM »
Thanks!