May 10 - The Sword of Worlds CH 25 - Kail

[ErikHolmes]

Another Kail chapter, I think the best way to recap is to just include how the last scene with him ended:

“I do, my king. Your daughter is an oathbreaker. Which all in the Dovre know, even if none dare to speak it,” said Reginn, the huldu my father had long ago betrothed me to.
He turned towards me, smiling. The gold etched into his black horns gleaming in the glow of my father’s throne. “The boy is no more ‘greater than all of the trolls in the mountain’ than I am. She is an oathbreaker and her life forfeit.”
A cold shiver ran through me as he spoke. The air beside me dropped in temperature as Kail glared down at my accuser.
Reginn continued, “She has shared both Rings and Blood with a mortal boy . . .”
Oh no.
“. . . and taken him as her mate and husband, in one of our most ancient rituals of marriage, one never before performed with an outsider, going against her own father’s wishes.”
Kail took a step back from the stand, obviously shocked by Reginn’s words.
“Husband?” he turned to me and asked.
His reaction did not go unnoticed by the other huldrene in the courtroom. My father lowered his head, unable to meet my gaze.
Reginn laughed. “Do you see! She has deceived even her own mate!”
As Kail looked at me, his eyes suddenly narrowed and flared brightly in anger. I looked into the cold windows of death.
It happened . . .
“She has no honor!” Reginn shouted.
I sobbed, my eyes welling up with tears. Kail stared at me, gritting his teeth in a look of pure hatred and wrath.
 . . . I’d made him hate me.
Kail turned his back on me, leaping down from the stand.

Thanks for reading!

[lethalfalcon]

Alright, time to give you another round of my ol' bashing.

The writing itself... bothers me a little less when more is happening, because I tend to overlook pronouns and don't notice first vs. third person as much (and I still like 3rd a lot better, but to each his own). I'm not going to not review simply based on the fact that I dislike the frame of reference.  There's still quite a few issues with flow, but those are more line-level. I'll get those to you.

I think my biggest problem (and I notice things like this more when I read multiple chapters from you at once, as I did today) is that Kail's personality seems a bit flaky. I keep getting this badass, sarcastic, cocky SOB attitude from him, which is fine. He's essentially me, thrown into a story. However, I keep seeing him get afraid of things. Now, I don't know about you, but when I hear that I have power over everything (chapter 23), I don't get all wide-eyed and wet my pants when I hear that I have to defeat someone who supposedly has less power than me, or when I see that I have to pull a sword out of the stone that just cooked a troll. I'm a Godslayer, right? The least I can do is fulfill some lousy sword-in-the-stone prophecy on the side. I wouldn't even think twice about it. But I know that he feels some fear, even if he's surpressing it.

Fear nothing, I’d promised.

He also stops for a second before fully approaching the sword, which usually indicates hesitation from caution. But why? He's certainly not cautious when confronting Kajsa's father, nor when he rips Reginn a new one.

Also, I'm a little iffy on the whole sword-in-the-stone bit. The whole rest of the chapter after that is telegraphed. After all of your other misdirections and plot twists, it's a bit of a letdown. The *second* she threw the sword, I was like "Oh, he's going to pull it out". Tada!

I do find it a little humorous that Brose says "And so the prophecy begins" about 30 seconds before it ends. I see in my head this big monster with James Earl Jones' voice (Mufasa, Lion King) starting to narrate "And so for many ages the sword sat... HEY! What the hell are you doing ruining my story!" as Kail pulls the sword out.

One other thing that bothered me a little was the amount of description you put into Reginn... twice. In chapter 23 Kajsa sees him, and you describe him rather well then. In 25, you go through the whole routine again. I'm not sure it's necessary, except where he's thinking about what he'll do (holding the horns and kneeing his face, for instance).

Since I'm not completely heartless (yet), I'll tell you that I generally enjoy your character interactions. You have good situations (Kajsa deceiving Kail into becoming her husband, him saving her, the trolls being complete jerks, etc.), and for the most part your plot twists keep the story fresh (until the second half of this chapter). I guess we'll see what the future brings. Now I'm off to sacrifice small children to Cthulu.

[ryos]

Hokay. This chapter was a mixed bag, and a bit of a letdown.

First, let me mention that I'm glad you described the cavern. However, you stuck it in there right as the action was about to begin, so it interrupts the flow. That description would have been better put in the previous Kail chapter.

Second, Kail's decision to shrug off Kajsa's deception was not what I was hoping for. Or, maybe, the way he just accepted it out of hand after a brief moment of anger. It felt like a cop out, because it made the problem just go away. "Well, you just made a lifelong commitment for me without even asking me, but I guess that's alright." Pushover! Love-sick puppy!

Don't get me wrong: Kail ought to fight for Kajsa, as he does. He ought to delay fighting with her over this slight, as he does. But I get the feeling, based on the way he just shrugs, that this conflict is never going to happen because Kail has decided to be an emasculated marshmallow, and that would be a shame.

Third, I was a little mortified at Kail's brutality here. I kept wanting him to take a step back and realize that his anger has taken him to a dark place. Maybe he will later, I don't know. But why did he keep maiming his opponent after he'd obviously won? It was offputting, and made me sympathize with Kail a little less.

Kail's been brutal before, but those times felt different for some reason. Maybe because, always before, he was fighting for his life, whereas this felt more like a friendly contest/boxing match type thing. Maybe, if you weren't shooting to darken Kail's character with this fight, you could change the setup a bit so it doesn't feel like he's out of line when he beats the tar out of a downed and defeated opponent.

Lastly, sword in the stone? Not awesome. I'm with Falcon on that one. Either figure out a way to make it awesome, or figure some other way for Kail to prove himself that is. The entire thing just came too easily. Kail laid the smackdown on a serious opponent without breaking a sweat, and he effortlessly proved himself by pulling a sword from a stone. At no time to we feel that he might be in danger, or that he might fail. It's like cheating at a video game: briefly entertaining but ultimately unfulfilling. You need the character to struggle harder than that for us readers to get that vicarious rush of accomplishment that can make books and video games so addicting.

Now, I don't want to give the impression that I hated the chapter. It was okay. It's just that this feels like a character climax, and in that role it falls quite flat. Sorry to be so negative. Take with an appropriately-sized grain of salt, and all that.

[Recovering_Cynic]

Hmmm... I will comment on what has been said already.

First, the good: I liked the description!  You might put it earlier though, but it was very well done.  Also, the fight scene was really cool.  I don't mind that Kail kicked the trolls teeth in without breaking a sweat.  It's one of those wish fulfillment fantasies--the thing you wish you could have done to that bully in the 5th grade.

On that note...

The fight was a tad too brutal though.  Snapping legs, stomping on faces after your opponent is down, etc. will turn off some of your readers.  Plus, it was a bit of a character shift.  We've never known Kail to be a mean person before, and that's kinda how he comes off.  The troll hadn't done anything other than say some not-so-nice things.  If he had, say, slapped down Kajsa, well, *then* the level of brutality you described would have been appropriate.  Also, if the troll kept attacking, even feebly, and Kail kept bashing him, well, that would probably be acceptable too.

Moving on.  I disliked the sword bit, but not for the same reason as everybody else.  I didn't like it because of the shift.  We go from brutal fight to all of the sudden sword and prophesy.  The shift was just too sudden for me.  As to ways to make it awesome... well, I had a thought.  If you were going for brutal, you might have the sword already impaled on the ground, and during the fight, Kail slams the troll down on top of it like a stake, then pulls it out and decapitates the troll.  Crowd is hushed because they realize what's happened.  Ta-da!  Dumb idea that would require reworking your story considerably, but seeing the fight scene in my head was cool   The thing is this: we go from battle of champions to sword in the stone.  Stick with one or the other, or mix the two in a cool way.  Going from one to the other is too jarring.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

Well not to be rude, but everyone is right about the swap between kicking troll face and the sword.  Essentially the piece moves from "Feel 1: Troll soccer," to "Feel 2:  Brave farm boy becoming king."  But everyone else has already gone into enough depth on that subject so I won't.  What I will do, is go over the fight.

A lot of times in movies or television or other books, when our heroes are faced with fights to the death they often fight someone then back off "because killing people just isn't my way."  As a population, we like this.  It gives us as normal people an emotional connection with the hero.  It raises them to a higher status that most people think is awesome.  He or she can fight to save those he or she cares about, but isn't a murderer (you'll note I didn't use the word "Killer").  This is complete BS.

For those of you who don't fight, don't know how to fight, and have never had something to fight for, this scene is called "brutal."  For those of us who do fight, know how to fight, and have had things to fight for, this scene is called "accurate."  Most people can't connect with what real combat is like.  They want to see their heroes fight until the bad guy is defeated, it's too much for them to see the hero finish the fight quickly the way all real fighters know to do.  If anyone tried to hurt my family (that's wife and children) they should feel lucky to be left as whole as Kail left Reginn.  Beating someone so profoundly solves a problem few keep in mind, and that is retaliation.  You knock someone down who's just tried to beat you with a baseball bat, run and take the bat.  That person is likely going to just get another one and come after you.  The scene is brutal, yes, but it's what real fighters would do.  I commend Erik for the honesty of the scene.

That said, there is always an emotional strain on people who brutalize others, which I'm expecting to see later.  And to say that Reginn hasn't done anything to Kasja is in accurate as well.  The whole of the mountain is threatening to kill her if Kail doesn't prove he's the toughest kid on the block.  Kail knew that and played at it in the text.  I thought all that was really well done.

[Recovering_Cynic]

Um, excuse me Mr. Longtimeunderdog, but I have been trained to fight, I have had to fight, and I have had things to fight for.  On multiple occasions.  Each time, I managed to pull myself back from going over the edge and doing something I would really regret.  Don't assume things about other people on the forum. 

What bothered me about Kail was that he didn't even think about pulling back.  A person with a conscience would at least consider the option and discard it if it isn't feasible.  During this fight, the troll never really poses a threat.  I've been in fights like that, where it's one sided.  I pulled back.  When it was clear my opponent didn't want to continue, I let it end, even though I was pressured not to.

I guess my point is this:  the kind of violence Kail is meeting out here comes from one of three sources: (1) survival, (2) blinding rage, 0r (3) lack of conscience/psychopathy.  Survival really wasn't an issue--Kail handled the troll neatly.  He was never really even scratched, nor did he once fear for his life.  Blinding rage would have had a chance to ease before the fight ended, which makes that an unlikely choice.  Besides, Kail walked into the fight voluntarily, making a choice, whereas blinding rage is about "snapping" and doing something you wouldn't ordinarily do. 

We are left with a lack of conscience, a lack of concern for the welfare of others.  Of course, this might be the point where we learn that Kail is a cold-blooded killer, that killing or maiming others doesn't bother him.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  Psychopaths--those who can kill without remorse--can be both "good" and "bad".  Some end up criminals, others end up in law enforcement, others as everyday people.  So Kail doesn't have a conscience?  I'm okay with that, but it would be nice if it were telegraphed earlier, a hint at the bit of darkness within.  Otherwise, a flash of conscience during the fight would be nice.

[lethalfalcon]

I'll have to agree with Cynic, here. If someone were to come after your family, you'd very likely enter what he refers to as "blinding rage". No one hurts your family and gets away with it. Now, if Kail were to go postal for a reason, that's the one I'd probably choose (Kajsa is directly his family, which he just found out), but the way it's written does not jive with that. He makes a conscious choice to go kick the crap out of Reginn. Sure, he's mad, but the level of anger doesn't really seem to cloud his judgment (he acts more like a paladin or knight at that moment). He should be able to consciously know when Reginn is down and out and stop, unless he *wants* to continue (which is the lack of conscience).

[ryos]

Well, LTU, you're right about one thing: I've been in precisely one fight in my life. It was in grade school. I lost.

That said, I think we're mostly in agreement. I hate fictional heros who have every reason to kill, but don't because of their unrealistic principles. What's missing from this piece, or at least is not brought out enough, is that reason. The way it's written, Kail's biggest motive is just that he's pissed off. Worse, the fight feels less like a fight to protect family and more like a cage match. A brutal sport, but still a sport.

In football, if you have a huge lead on your opponent, you put your third-string players in so they can get some experience. This is not only good sense, it's the sporting thing to do. Boxers don't kick their opponents when they're down. They don't hit below the belt. They're in a contest, not a fight for life. Kail's fight is too much like the former and not enough like the latter, and that was my issue.

[ErikHolmes]

Thanks for all of the comments so far guys, I'm feeling like I rushed this chapter a bit. Part of me is happy with it, part of me isn't.

Lastly, sword in the stone? Not awesome. I'm with Falcon on that one. Either figure out a way to make it awesome, or figure some other way for Kail to prove himself that is. The entire thing just came too easily. Kail laid the smackdown on a serious opponent without breaking a sweat, and he effortlessly proved himself by pulling a sword from a stone. At no time to we feel that he might be in danger, or that he might fail. It's like cheating at a video game: briefly entertaining but ultimately unfulfilling. You need the character to struggle harder than that for us readers to get that vicarious rush of accomplishment that can make books and video games so addicting.

"The entire thing just came too easily," I think is the problem with this chapter. I was worried about that going into things and I'm trying to find out a way to fix that part of it.

I'm wondering if lengthening this chapter and focusing more on Kail's thoughts might be the key to fixing it. Sort of making it where in his head he's really struggling to defeat Reginn, but to the Trolls it looks like an easy win. Same with the sword.

I want to find a way to make this scene both a challenge for Kail, while at the same time fulfilling Kajsa's oath to the satisfaction of the trolls in the mountain and more importantly, my readers. The problem is that Kail really has to come off looking like more powerful than everyone in that mountain to be considered "greater than all the trolls in the mountain."

The other part of me wonders if I'm looking at this chapter too closely. It's only one chapter, like 3,000 words of the book. Yes, its an easy win for Kail, but he's going to have a lot of nasty trials soon before the book is finished. Then again, its the climax of an important arc for Kajsa, so I want it to be awesome.

I'm wondering if making it more of an internal struggle as Kail tries to figure out what's happening with the glow he's seeings, etc will help solve the problem. That and possible splitting up the chapter in two.

Thoughts?

Second, Kail's decision to shrug off Kajsa's deception was not what I was hoping for. Or, maybe, the way he just accepted it out of hand after a brief moment of anger. It felt like a cop out, because it made the problem just go away. "Well, you just made a lifelong commitment for me without even asking me, but I guess that's alright." Pushover! Love-sick puppy!

I do want to have Kail address that with Kajsa later on, but at the same time I don't want to bog the book down with it. But you make a good point, its something else I need to flesh out a bit in the scene.

I was actually trying to pull a little trick on the readers with the Kail getting angry bit. At the end of the last chapter, Kajsa sees Kail getting frighteningly angry as he finds out she tricked him into marriage. But this is what KAJSA sees, not whats really happening. What's really happening is that Reginn uses Kail's surprise at hearing that bombshell to make Kajsa look like a fool in front of a room of thousands of her kinsmen.
This pisses Kail off.
The anger Kajsa is seeing isn't directed at her, but at Reginn. When he turns his back on her and leaps from the stand, its not to get away from her, its to go kick Reginns ass.

But maybe I didn't pull this off well?

We are left with a lack of conscience, a lack of concern for the welfare of others.  Of course, this might be the point where we learn that Kail is a cold-blooded killer, that killing or maiming others doesn't bother him.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  Psychopaths--those who can kill without remorse--can be both "good" and "bad".  Some end up criminals, others end up in law enforcement, others as everyday people.  So Kail doesn't have a conscience?  I'm okay with that, but it would be nice if it were telegraphed earlier, a hint at the bit of darkness within.  Otherwise, a flash of conscience during the fight would be nice.

Yeah, I knew I was going to hear it for Kail's sudden brutality. Then again:

Chapter 5:
Then I heard someone hit her, and my heart turned cold. An anger like I’d never felt before overcame me—it felt like I had ice in my veins. The despair I’d been feeling on my way over here, the fear I’d felt as I snuck up to Ellie’s front door disappeared, washed away and replaced by cold determination.
No, not Ellie. I took a few quick steps and lowered my shoulder, throwing all of my weight into the front door.
It didn’t open—it shattered. Pieces of the door were thrown into the room as most of it was torn from the frame, startling the group of men standing over Ellie—who was on the ground. Inside were four men that I assumed were working with the guys that had killed Lance; a fifth man was back in the kitchen, holding a knife that was glowing red-hot.
I raised the desert eagle towards the nearest man, pointing it at his head and was about to tell him and his friends to freeze—then I glanced down and saw Ellie’s face.
Ellie is the sweetest, kindest brat I’ve ever met; the most caring person in the whole damn world. She’s never done anything to hurt anyone and often goes out of her way to help others. When I looked at her I had a revelation: I thought of Lance as my best friend. But Ellie was family—and these assholes had beat on her until her face was covered in blood and terror . . .
I pulled the trigger, cracking the mirror behind the first guy as it was splattered with blood and gray matter. I kept pulling the trigger as he fell, I think Ellie was screaming again but all I heard were gunshots.

And:

Chapter 12:
I’d killed four men. It hadn’t been murder. Manslaughter maybe. But you don’t just kill four people without doing time. I thought back again to how I felt, just before I’d pulled the trigger. If there’s a word for that feeling, I don’t know what it is.
What do you call that feeling you get, when you’ve caught a spider with a piece of toilet paper. The one right before you squeeze, and feel its body crunch in your fingers.
That’s what I’d felt before I pulled the trigger. Four bugs. That needed to be squished.
And now that they were dead?
I didn’t feel a damn thing.

Actually, I don't think Kail's got into any confrontations where he hasn't turned into a ruthless killing machine. 
It's always the nice guys... you never see them coming.

[Recovering_Cynic]

It had been awhile since I read those chapters, but it's good to be reminded that Kail's actions are in character.  This is one of those writing group problems where we read something six months ago and it has slipped our minds since then.

[lethalfalcon]

I'll admit I haven't read the whole thing. I didn't even join until you were around chapter 18 or so... But I will say this; you really don't want people hating your protagonists. At least, not in the way that I'm coming to dislike Kail. I have no problem with cocky characters, nor ones who kill out of necessity, nor even ones who are *good* at killing and somewhat enjoy it (as long as there's a purpose, like an assassin). Him wasting people because they hurt Ellie--that's a *good* reason, in my opinion. Him kicking someone while they're down (figuratively or literally)... not so much. Of course, if he feels no remorse for what he's done... well, that shifts him a little bit into the realm of unlikable. Perhaps this has been told in one of your earlier chapters already, perhaps not... but *why* does he feel no remorse? Was he abused as a child or something? Or is he really just psychopathic?

Also, I know Kajsa is a little... ambitious in that realm, too, but would she *want* him to be a heartless bastard? Okay, he loves her, but would she be fine with him hating the whole rest of the world, so they can go off and be bitter together?

Splitting the chapter in two (to put the "beginning of the prophesy" and its resolution in separate chapters) might help, but do you really want to bore yourself and us with 20 pages of explanation on him figuring out the glow? I mean, yes, that should take more time... but I'm not sure you want a blow-by-blow account of him puzzling it through. Maybe Daddy can suspend the hearing due to janitorial work, giving Kail some time to discover a way (maybe he actually has to *do* something besides just pull it out, like, draw the glyph around the sword, or activate an ability, or *something*) to prove his worth. And it takes some time. After all, he knows very little about the glyphs besides Kajsa's little lesson (which could be some foreshadowing in and of itself). It could also allow him to come to terms with what he is--the Godslayer.

Or maybe there is a more long-standing prophecy that the trolls have to prove him "better than all the trolls in the mountain" besides Kajsa's sword. I mean, it's not really much of a prophecy when it begins and ends within a day (or 2 minutes, the way it's written now). Shouldn't there be something like one of those "There shall come a time, when a man not of this world shall rend the very mountain we live in, shake the foundation of our society to its very core, and then bind us together stronger than ever" prophecies that's oh, a millennium or so old? Especially given how long-lived trolls are to begin with. Do trolls have seers, or prophets, or anything like that? Or, another possibility would be something wrong that none of the trolls have been able to fix. Then, when Kail is able to fix it, tada. Greater than all the trolls. I understand that you want to use Kajsa's sword because it's the idea that her grandmother(?) told her about, but her grandmother could always tell her about something else instead.

I think another problem I have with the whole sword-in-the-stone issue is the trolls' perception when he pulls it out. "Well, she just keyed its release to him because she loves him," I say, sowing even more seeds of doubt in the minds of the trolls. As her father, I'd *especially* think that, given how he knows her feelings toward Kail. So how is this supposed to prove that he's greater than all the trolls? Honestly, I think it needs to *not* involve the two of them, otherwise, the perception is going to be skewed.

I really didn't have a problem with the way you ended chapter 23 and how you began chapter 25. The unreliable narrator works great in that sense. Since you're in first person, you have to show it through the eyes of the character at focus. Kajsa believes one thing, but that doesn't make it the truth. The reality is quite different, as chapter 25 shows.

Sorry for another wall of text. Hopefully you're getting something from this besides my ranting.

[Recovering_Cynic]

^Seconds everything Lethal just said.

[ryos]

Thirded. And added to:

I don't think figuring out the blue glow should be a struggle. I'd think it's pretty obvious. Don't want to make Kail look *too* dumb.

As for previous brutality, I did mention that in my original critique, and that it always felt justified before whereas here it does not.

As for fixing the sword in the stone? I like the idea of making it something that the trolls have not been able to do for ages, but Kail can. I'll also point out that I would expect Kajsa's father to set the trial, since he IS the boss man and all.

As for fixing the object of Kail's anger, just make sure it's perfectly clear that Kail is pissed at Reggin, not Kajsa. It may well be, and I just fail reading comprehension. It's happened before. But I also think that, by rights, he ought to be mad at her, considering what she did. Deception and coercion are not a good foundation for a healthy relationship.

[Asmodemon]

The anger Kajsa is seeing isn't directed at her, but at Reginn. When he turns his back on her and leaps from the stand, its not to get away from her, its to go kick Reginns ass.

But maybe I didn't pull this off well?

For me, that’s what I thought was going to happen back in the last Kajsa chapter. I would’ve actually been surprised if his explosive anger had been directed at her.

So I think you did pull it off, though mileage may vary.

I'm wondering if making it more of an internal struggle as Kail tries to figure out what's happening with the glow he's seeings, etc will help solve the problem. That and possible splitting up the chapter in two.

I wouldn’t recommend it, it would just be adding more introspection we don’t really need. Instead I’d try something other than the sword-in-the-stone. While it was amusing to read the start of a longstanding prophesy and see it end right there it doesn’t really work for me because Kajsa put the sword in the stone and sets the release condition.

She said only the one who is stronger than all the trolls in the mountain can pull it out. She also calls Kail stronger than all the trolls in the mountain. As an IT guy it reads to me like she designates a key to access the sword and then assigns that key to Kail.

I don’t really know what you should change it into, but the biggest thing you should go for would be tension. I didn’t feel anything for Kail, unlike when he fought against the sigil knight in chapter 19. There was never a question he would lose to Reginn and there was never any question he wasn’t going to pull out the sword. If Kail must be tested perhaps it should be against something the trolls can’t defeat, thus proving he is stronger than any one of them – perhaps an ancestral enemy of some sort, perhaps even the big bad guy, or someone who’s actually one of the good guys.

If Morrigan is not evil, but Kail has to kill her for instance, it could create tension between him and Ellie.  The same for other characters on Ellie's side just to give an example.

[ryos]

If Morrigan is not evil, but Kail has to kill her for instance, it could create tension between him and Ellie.  The same for other characters on Ellie's side just to give an example.

If Morrigan's not evil I'll eat my hat.