Author Topic: Vader vs Batman  (Read 5285 times)

Eerongal

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2010, 03:29:49 AM »
Not unless such a god of darkness has very defined precognitive abilities.

if we're talking about darkseid (which i assume we are) he has telepathy, telekineses, can create psionic avatars, essentially all of superman's powers, the ability to travel through time, space, and dimensions, and the ability to erase  beings from existence (has to hit them with a beam attack for that)

Telepathy and telekinesis is not the same as clairvoyance :)

Though, I actually don't know who we are talking about. I still purport that Vader will win.

To be fair, isnt the force's clairvoyance more like spider senses? they cant *SEE* the future or remote viewing so much as get a "oh crap, jump to the right!" or a "someone is over there!" feeling?
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ryos

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2010, 07:39:39 AM »
Yoda made some relatively detailed prophecies. Pre-Vader Anakin foresaw the death of his wife. Luke saw Vader torturing his friends while still training at Dagobah.

In other words, the Force does appear to grant form of clairvoyance, to view both the present and the future.
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Shivertongue

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2010, 08:21:07 AM »
The fact is, however, that Batman doesn't lose. This is partly because he is obsessive-compulsive to the point of preparation. Being unprepared can end with criminals escaping because he didn't anticipate something. The moment Batman learned about the Force, he'd be working on finding ways to combat, contain, or nullify it through technology or other means. Heck, if this is taking place in the Star Wars galaxy, it's possible he could get his hands on a JK-13 "Jedi Killer" droid...

And the Force-Precognition, as far as I know, isn't something they can just turn on and off. There are ways of combating precognition (see: Mistborn and Atium for one example), and I know (although, to be honest, can't think of any examples of) that Batman has fought such adversaries before. At the very least, he would have prepared for such occurrences, which is the entire point.
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Eerongal

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2010, 02:45:59 PM »
Yoda made some relatively detailed prophecies. Pre-Vader Anakin foresaw the death of his wife. Luke saw Vader torturing his friends while still training at Dagobah.

In other words, the Force does appear to grant form of clairvoyance, to view both the present and the future.

I am aware of these instances, but i meant it more in a "combat" situation sort of thing, as in can people see what's going to happen in the middle of the fight before it happens in great enough detail to counter it? As far as i'm aware, it doesn't work like that, otherwise it would be nigh impossible to kill either jedi or sith by any who weren't of said orders, however, this doesn't seem to be the case, as a large number die in the clone wars

Edit: did a quick bit of looking and ran into this from wookieepedia.com -

Quote
Generally, when peering deep into the Force, a Force user had the potential to see events that could happen in the future. Force Visions were extremely rare, and uncontrollable. Often, one would meditate to gain a vision, but only a few would actually succeed.

Anakin Skywalker and his descendants—particularly his son Luke and his grandson Jacen Solo—were often prone to Force Visions. Master Yoda felt that visions were of great importance to the Force, and often acted on them as best he could. However, the Jedi warned that the future was always in motion, and that the events were only possible. As such, interpreting a vision by oneself was generally considered dangerous.

Some Jedi and Sith skilled in this technique were capable of detecting when friends and apprentices were in danger, examining details of past events, and predicting the probable outcome of a stated course of action.

Q'Anilia's vision about the Muur Talisman.
The Sith were also very vision-prone, but unlike the Jedi, they believed—either through experience or just because they wanted to believe it—that visions would always come to pass and that they must work to make it so. Some Sith would even input their own ideas of what might come to be into their visions. Darth Sidious was perhaps the most vision-prone Dark Lord of the Sith in history, and used it to ensure his own election as Supreme Chancellor, and his ascension as Galactic Emperor. Emperor Palpatine also consulted on his visions with the Prophets of the Dark Side, a Sith splinter group that was dedicated to studying the future through the dark side of the Force.

Some Sith, such as Darth Traya, could even peer into the future many thousands of years and predict events with great accuracy. This way, she could foretell the death of the last of the Mandalorians at the hands of a Jedi.
Force vision had its limitations. The user—particularly if he or she was a Sith—was incapable of foreseeing their own death. [source?] Palpatine never in his visions of the future saw himself die. Darth Caedus also saw many possibilities of the future, yet none of them involved his death. It is unknown why this limitation occurred.

The visions could be a form of precognition.

and found this on precognition:
Quote
The ability of foresight was perhaps universal to the Jedi or Force-sensitives and was manifested in the form of Force Visions of future events, or helped the Jedi predict his opponent's movements. Carnor Jax trained in the art. Plo Koon's former Master, Tyvokka was known to have advanced precognition powers.

I'm not sure how correct these are, but i'm assuming it's at least somewhat trustworthy, being a site dedicated to star wars.

I'm just trying to figure out how the powers work, specifically (never put too much thought into it, and i'm not the hugest SW nerd :P)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 02:53:28 PM by Eerongal »
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Recovering_Cynic

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2010, 02:52:27 PM »
And who said Mr. Batman gets a chance to prepare?  Surprise attack = dead Bruce Wayne.  The Sith certainly are not above surprise attacks.
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Eerongal

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2010, 03:09:21 PM »
And who said Mr. Batman gets a chance to prepare?  Surprise attack = dead Bruce Wayne.  The Sith certainly are not above surprise attacks.

As far as I can tell, Shivertongue is talking about batman's general preparedness with backup plans, or stockpiling of gadgets, not like "you have X days to figure out how to defeat darth vader"

Though, honestly, i couldn't see vader staging a covert surprise attack. Like i've said before, vader is cocky, and full of himself, and would likely just expect to walk up to batman and kill him.
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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2010, 04:18:42 PM »
Yes, Vader is cocky, but he set a trap for Han, didn't he?  Han had no idea he was going to face a Sith Lord and was summarily defeated.  If Batman had been in the same situation, do you really think he would have fared better?
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Shivertongue

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2010, 07:28:23 PM »
Yes, Vader is cocky, but he set a trap for Han, didn't he?  Han had no idea he was going to face a Sith Lord and was summarily defeated.  If Batman had been in the same situation, do you really think he would have fared better?

Yes he would have. Han KNEW Vader was an enemy of his, if not a direct threat to he himself than to people he associated with. If Batman were in Han's place, and knew Vader MIGHT come for him, he would have a half dozen plans within the hour, with as many back-up and contingency plans. Add in that Batman is obsessed with eliminating crime and evil, the mere knowledge that Vader exists would put him on Batman's 'hit list'.

Edit: this is by far the nerdiest discussion I've had in some time, and it is awesome!
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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2010, 07:56:01 PM »
Lets see, it would go like this:

Batman walks in the door.  "Holy cow!  It's Vader!"  Batman pulls out (insert weapon here).

Vader disarms Batman, much as he did Han Solo.

Storm troopers walk in.  Point blasters at Batman and Batman's friends.

Batman tries kung fu.

Vader force chokes Batman.  Storm troopers open fire.  Toasted semi-flying super hero for breakfast.
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ryos

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2010, 08:03:51 PM »
Quote
The fact is, however, that Batman doesn't lose. This is partly because he is obsessive-compulsive to the point of preparation. Being unprepared can end with criminals escaping because he didn't anticipate something. The moment Batman learned about the Force, he'd be working on finding ways to combat, contain, or nullify it through technology or other means. Heck, if this is taking place in the Star Wars galaxy, it's possible he could get his hands on a JK-13 "Jedi Killer" droid...

Well, if you want to give Batman access to Star Wars technology, then obviously he stands a chance. I'm thinking Jango/Boba Fett-style armor and gear. Those two took out a lot of Jedi with that getup.

However, if you hold the battle in an arena formed at the nexus of two fictional universes, with each having only what he can carry from his own world, then I still just don't see Batman winning. Barring a can of force-repellant and an unblockable sword-blocker, of course. :)
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Shivertongue

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2010, 08:10:40 PM »
Quote
The fact is, however, that Batman doesn't lose. This is partly because he is obsessive-compulsive to the point of preparation. Being unprepared can end with criminals escaping because he didn't anticipate something. The moment Batman learned about the Force, he'd be working on finding ways to combat, contain, or nullify it through technology or other means. Heck, if this is taking place in the Star Wars galaxy, it's possible he could get his hands on a JK-13 "Jedi Killer" droid...

Well, if you want to give Batman access to Star Wars technology, then obviously he stands a chance. I'm thinking Jango/Boba Fett-style armor and gear. Those two took out a lot of Jedi with that getup.

However, if you hold the battle in an arena formed at the nexus of two fictional universes, with each having only what he can carry from his own world, then I still just don't see Batman winning. Barring a can of force-repellant and an unblockable sword-blocker, of course. :)

Okay, surmising the same, Batman wouldn't need force-repellent or the like. He has faced opponents with abilities similar to Vader's - telekinesis, enhanced physical abilities, expert swordsmanship. Heck, on that last one, Batman can probably match him, as he has trained extensively in numerous forms of armed and unarmed combat. The second isn't so much of an advantage either, because Batman has trained his body to the peak of human ability.

In fact, the moment he notices the machinery that makes up much of Vader's body, he only needs to find a way to interrupt the mechanics/programming/whatever and Vader is incapacitated.
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Eerongal

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2010, 08:12:13 PM »
Lets see, it would go like this:

Batman walks in the door.  "Holy cow!  It's Vader!"  Batman pulls out (insert weapon here).

Vader disarms Batman, much as he did Han Solo.

Storm troopers walk in.  Point blasters at Batman and Batman's friends.

Batman tries kung fu.

Vader force chokes Batman.  Storm troopers open fire.  Toasted semi-flying super hero for breakfast.

well, see, this is how i, and likely shivertongue forsee it happening.

Batman walks in the door.  "Holy cow!  It's Vader!"  Batman pulls out A) Freezing nitrogent impact bomb or B)High powered, Charged electrical batarang (both of these items are items he has and uses, not sure which is better in this situation)

Vader disarms Batman, much as he did Han Solo, pulling the weapon to him (i'm 99% sure that's what happened, right?), causing weapon to go off, stunning/frying/freezing vader, vader now incapacitated.

Storm troopers walk in.  Point blasters at Batman and Batman's friends.

Batman tries kung fu, and beats the troopers, because he usually does beat large groups of armed, nameless guards, with regular frequency.

Vader is frozen/Incapacitated. No force choke available.
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Recovering_Cynic

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2010, 08:29:09 PM »
Meh.  I'm pretty sure the nitrogen wouldn't even touch vader's armor and certainly wouldn't stop him from using the force, and as to the electrical batarang, Vader took some heavy shocks from the emperor and kept on coming (yes, it hurt him, but it didn't stop him). 

Force choke.  Blasters.  Dead Batman.

And I agree with Ryos that with updated technology, Batman would have at least a fighting chance, say 50%-50% odds of winning.
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Eerongal

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2010, 08:49:57 PM »
Meh.  I'm pretty sure the nitrogen wouldn't even touch vader's armor and certainly wouldn't stop him from using the force, and as to the electrical batarang, Vader took some heavy shocks from the emperor and kept on coming (yes, it hurt him, but it didn't stop him). 

Force choke.  Blasters.  Dead Batman.

And I agree with Ryos that with updated technology, Batman would have at least a fighting chance, say 50%-50% odds of winning.

Uhhh....vader's armor and life support was irreparably broken by the force lightning, causing his death. And the freezing from his bombs thoroughly froze the clayface thoroughly (as in all the way through), and clayface is very large (much larger than vader). I.E. freezing = flash frozen vader as if he were in some form of cryogenic freeze. I'm reasonably certain this would stop him from using force powers.

Also: in regards to electricity/force lightning, i dont know if we can directly compare the effects of force lightning and true electricity. Force lightning seems to act like electricity in many respects, but different in others. I.E. prolonged exposure can cause a victim to rapidly calcify. Also, isn't force lightning bolts of pure FORCE energy and not ELECTRIC energy?

Point is, if they act different in some regards, we can't just say "he survived force lightning, electricity means nothing to him" because it's comparing apples to oranges. A good, strong, electric shock might damage equipment more or less than an equally powered force lightning, which is unfortunately something we can't quite measure.

Edit: also, on the freezing bombs, they might not be freezing nitrogen, come to think of it. I don't think it's ever really stated what specifically it is, but it's whatever mr. freeze uses to flash freeze stuff. I always just assumed it was like some kind of super nitrogen or something
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 08:57:26 PM by Eerongal »
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Recovering_Cynic

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Re: Vader vs Batman
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2010, 09:41:22 PM »
True, we can't really make a good comparison on either item.  The force electricity is not necessarily electricity.  Also, Mr. Clayface (I remember seeing that episode) is made of, well, clay.  Clay has water in it, which freezes handily.  Vader's suit, a solid, doesn't, and we don't know what it's made of.  The fact is, though, solids are generally affected less by cold than liquids are.  They become more brittle, but they don't freeze so to speak.  So Batman launches a freeze bomb that makes Vader's armor brittle, big deal.  Force choke.  Blasters.  Death.  The freeze bomb would have to completely freeze Vader inside his armor to do the damage, and that much cold in an enclosed space would probably do bad things to Batman too, who isn't wearing an environmental suit like Vader is.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 09:44:32 PM by Recovering_Cynic »
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