Author Topic: April 19 - LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jin'Cathul Chapter 8 (R-MA - S, V  (Read 1954 times)

LongTimeUnderdog

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In which Jin takes some levels in BA, Forging is explained, and the reason why I spend so much time on the children growing up.  Oh yeah, and there's ninjas.

lethalfalcon

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Okay, it's been awhile since I harassed you, so I'll give it another go. :)

I didn't have any particular beef with the chapter as a whole. Now that the little Jin has grown up a little, things aren't so unbelievable for me, although I still found parts of it boring. This is likely due to its length: after 37 pages (when you properly double-space everything), you really don't accomplish much except for a lot of inner thinking. In a normal-sized novel, this is somewhere between 1/10 and 1/20 of the total length, and all you do is have two fights and some chit-chat. The total in-world time of this chapter is probably under an hour.

However, I think the biggest problem I had with it was the actual fight. You have 5 whole pages of building up to the fight, and it's literally over in 2 paragraphs. 2 measly paragraphs. Perhaps you meant it that way; I don't really know. To me, though, it feels like a letdown. I understand that Teruss is really just this sissy who gets his way because he runs away from anything threatening, but the way you portray him it looks like he doesn't even know how to fight. I'm pretty sure you don't get arms the size of someone's legs from doing nothing. I really feel like, if this is going to be the Fight That Changes Jin's Life, it should last more than 223 words and have a little bit of suspense in it.

Now, I'm going to give you a warning that I haven't read all of the previous chapters yet; I've been busy, and yours is one that I generally have to be in a certain mood to critique. However, given your intro, I'm not really seeing how this explains the reason for you spending so much time on their early lives. There's the fight, where he forges and kills his first person, and then another fight, where he forges again with more knowledge about what he's actually doing, and then manages to get away from the Hesk. You have an instructor (the voice), so nothing in his past really comes into play here, except maybe a little bit of Talven's early lessons. Still, It doesn't seem all the necessary, and it could easily be shown through flashbacks or just inferred in the present. So what exactly is the reason you've spent so much time on their early lives?

The Hesk are nifty enough, I suppose. They're pretty standard lizardmen (regenerative powers, scales, etc.), but I'll wait to see what you do with them before passing judgment. Dunno if I'd call them ninjas though.

Your second fight is better by far. Things actually happen in it, and we learn more about the actual process of forging. It was much easier for me to read for this very reason.

If you were to expand the first fight, to give it some substance, I would recommend breaking this into two chapters. One for the first fight and the aftermath (choosing weapons and whatnot), and another for the second fight. 8k for a chapter is getting a bit lengthy. You could even end the first chapter with a good cliffhanger. A good place to cut it would be when the attendant comes in and says "She's dead." Then I *want* to turn the page to read what's happening. I would also recommend cutting down on the amount of Teruss' life that you dump on us in one place. It's quite telly, and only some of it holds relevance at this time.

Anyway, keep it up (not that I could stop you anyway). You'd just better get that ax sharpened, 'cause you're going to need it eventually.
I don't have good days. I have great days, where I'm a magician ridding the world of all evil, or at least everything I don't like. And then I wake up, and it's back to work for me.

lethalfalcon

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And then I realize by looking at the end of chapter 7 that you gave away that she was likely dead already. Hrm, that's unfortunate. Maybe you could (re)move it. It kinda makes the two chapters temporally mish-mashed.
I don't have good days. I have great days, where I'm a magician ridding the world of all evil, or at least everything I don't like. And then I wake up, and it's back to work for me.

clarissavandell

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There were bits where the dialogue was confusing for me....  I wasn't sure whether it was Jin or Burm speaking.

Also, whether Jalean is dead or not will probably be revealed later, but... in case it isn't, I wasn't able to catch it.  Is Burm right, does he know something Jin doesn't, or is he trying to deny she's dead?

Asmodemon

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This was a really long chapter. It might be better to split it in two, or try and cut things a bit – in fact, doing both might be a good idea. I’ll say up front that I liked the second half better than the first half, but on the whole it was good. Things are moving again, Jin is growing as a character, one of the problematic factions (Hesk) in the world are on the move, it's great to see movement of the plot.

That said...

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Forging is explained

If I’m not mistaken the only times Forging is mentioned is back in Jin’Cathul chapter 1. We know Jin can do some ‘magic’, but it’s easy to forget that it’s called Forging. In fact, I had forgotten. It’s such a minor part of the story that before we see the Hesk using it here it’s not really clear why it’s important. 

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and the reason why I spend so much time on the children growing up.  Oh yeah, and there’s ninjas

I’m with Lethalfalcon on this one; I too don’t see how this chapter explains spending so much time in the children’s childhoods. Now, maybe you rewrote those chapters extensively since I read them, in which case this point might be a bit moot, but the Hesk are only mentioned in one Anaiah chapter, Forging only in Jin’s first, and the rest is just fighting and thinking about fighting. We don’t need the other chapters for that.

For the chapter itself I’m going to give the advice to start cutting (I know you don’t like to hear it, but there it is) or at least change the distribution of what happens.

You spend a lot of time working up to Jin’s first gladiator fight, but the fight itself is over almost before it happens. Jin’s first attack (Jin, the amateur, who has never won a fight EVER) takes down Teruss (a coward, but one of muscle, armour, weapons, a bit of soldiering experience, and a lot of gladiator experience). Jin shouldn’t have been able to get so close so easily.

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In the back of his mind, Jalean's final words came out.  Focus on your heart.

Good advice that unlocks Jin’s power. Only Jalean never said that to him. Her final words, per chapter 7, are:

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“I want you to remember, and think hard about, just how much I hate you, and I can't wait to skin you alive.”  Jalean laughed and punched Jin in the stomach.  He doubled over.  “I can't say it was fun.  But I did enjoy hurting you.”

The second part is better. With Teruss’ memories I can believe Jin has become a better fighter and knows how to use weapons. Again there’s a lot of introspection here, but given that the landscape of his mind has just changed it’s understandable. There often seems to be a reason why you have a lot of introspection, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Jin’s chapters in particular are slow because he thinks too much.

What I liked less is the other voice in his head. It feels too much like a plot device to explain Forging to Jin and to the reader. Maybe the voice will become more important later, maybe it’s even the voice of god, but right now you’ve got it doing two things: tell Jin to run and tell Jin how to Forge. For the first you’ve also got Teruss and for the second it would make Jin a stronger character if, over the last few chapters and the fight with Teruss in particular, he learned how to harness (at least in a rudimentary fashion) Forging himself.

The last conversation between Burm and Jin could use some fleshing out. I followed who was speaking relatively well, since Burm’s grammar is atrocious and Jin’s isn’t, but I’d like to have a better feel for the surroundings. The Hesk were so intrusive I found the way Burm and Jin got away a little easy.

LongTimeUnderdog

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The biggest reason I did not want to use flash backs, as has been suggested, is because Forging makes you forget.  While I've never directly called it forging, I have called it witchcraft (not that such is a reasonable substitute).  Did anyone pick up that forged memories are used up?

I honestly felt it would be cheating to have someone Forging with memories the audience was unaware of.  In Mistborn, the mistborn have a finite time in which they can use their powers, dependent on quantities of metals they have consumed.  While we don't have a little gauge that tells us exactly how much they have left, we do have a sense of that finality, and that was what I was trying to create.  As Jin is now being directly taught by some voice in his head (which I attempted to show was identical to the one in his very first chapter) he has to start picking and choosing which memories he's willing to give up.  The stronger the memory, the stronger the effect.  For those of you who had amazing first kisses (or say the first kiss after getting married), would you be willing to give that up for something?  I honestly felt I would be  cheating the audience if I did not give them the experiences of the children that they would all be using when they Forge (that is all but Anaiah, since she can't Forge).

I played with a cool gladiator match verses what I used and I decided to go with what I had.  My goal (successful or otherwise) was to demonstrate just how powerful Forging made Jin, and make a slight allusion to Guli's Forged strength.  The real "Jin grows a pair" fight was always meant to be the Hesk, where he definitively decides to start emulating Burm instead of being jealous of him. 

The ease of which he beats Teruss is to contrast just how difficult fighting the Hesk is.  When the Hesk appeared, the audience would have a reference to just how the war with them was really going.  On top of that I was trying to show just how similar Jin is to the Hesk (hint hint).  He can heal himself like they do, even using the memory of getting stabbed to heal those wounds, is super strong and fast, and as well he grows scales when he Forges.

I say trying to show alot because it seems to have failed miserably.  Or perhaps I'm just so bad at this that I can't get anyone to care enough to pick up any of that.  That is of course my fault and not pointing any fingers, just an observation.  I will admit, however, to not having even looked at this story in a few weeks since starting my second job.

But still, thank you all so much for taking time to actually read it.  I really do appreciate it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 04:05:59 AM by LongTimeUnderdog »

lethalfalcon

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I don't necessarily have a problem with needing to directly see a memory in writing to understand that when they forget it, they had to have had the memory to begin with. It's (usually) assumed that you, as the author, are making the characters behave in a way that doesn't break continuity.

That said, for those *really* important memories, why can't you use a different way to show that he's forgotten? I see two easily done possibilities.

First, have a very short flashback showing him *remembering* the memory that he's about to forget. I wouldn't overuse this, but for really important things, it makes sense that he would have thoughts about the memory when forging (and subsequently forgetting).

Second, have him *try* to remember something that he's forged. It's something really important, so he *should* remember, right? But he can't. Again, I wouldn't overuse it.

Together, those could easily paint a picture of what forging does to someone, and in a way that's going to drive home the point to both the reader and Jin how dangerous forging is.

Showing the difference between a normal fight (Teruss) versus the Hesk is good; it puts things in perspective. I think the problem we're having is that the first fight looks way too easy, so in comparison, maybe the Hesk are just *normal*. We don't ever see Teruss really kicking butt, and indeed he's a coward. We need to see Jin beat someone who actually puts up a fight (and still gets dominated), and *then* see the Hesk lay Jin out like a wet rag. It's almost better that we see Burm struggling; at least we know he's BA.

A little disclaimer: I don't read books to pick up on all the deep dark secrets of the author's inner turmoil. I *usually* don't even read too deeply into characters' actions. I'm definitely not the type of person to notice really subtle things 10 chapters down the road. I read books to escape, and to enjoy a good story (which, if there were more decent movies, I'd watch those instead, probably). So, maybe you need to take my comments of "it's too long and kinda boring" with a grain of salt. You're targeting a different audience than me. You're targeting my housemate, who goes through books *looking* for something to ruin the story for him (continuity issue, plot hole, etc.) just so he has something to complain about. I overlook those things, so that I can actually read the book again in the future. So my biggest issue is that seeing the childhoods of 4 characters that stretches across almost two dozen chapters is, quite frankly, boring. I want to get to the main plot, and the action, much quicker.

So, if I can forget my entire past, can I blow up the world? :)
I don't have good days. I have great days, where I'm a magician ridding the world of all evil, or at least everything I don't like. And then I wake up, and it's back to work for me.

LongTimeUnderdog

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The children growing up has always been my main story focus.  People growing up in a very alien world.  Seemed to me the best way to relay it to the audience. 

My favorite class in college was on Literary critisism, in which we studied how to observe and learn about the characters and stories through more of the "unspoken" details.  I guess that's just started seeping into everything I write.

Sadly, Forging only works on a single object, or an object touching that object.  If you tried to blow up a brick wall, you would have to do it one brick at a time.  Unless the bricks are mortared, then you could just blow the mortar.  And my power gauge isn't "how much memory," but "how strong the memory."  Jin getting tortured, for example, gives him a very strong memory to use to create a big effect with little concern for actually loosing that part of himself.  The second part of Forging is the object that the Forger . . .Forges.  Iron hardens until discharged, Stone just shatters, bone will grow in a desired pattern, blah blah blah.  But that's chapters down the line, but since it's not likely I'll get it to anyone, I bring it up because I'm curious what people will think of it.

Apparently there are very few readers who enjoy subtle notes on things.  I think that's why I enjoy some movies more then others do.  Also, these days I've been finding television shows tend to be much better vessels for good stories then Movies.  Odd, considering the past, but strangely the more time goes on, the more it seems to me to be true.

lethalfalcon

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So, if the memories work that way, would someone with an Eidetic memory just have a sick amount of power? I know that the majority of my memories are *very* vivid, so would forgetting all those fun videos in my head give me god-mode powers?

Also, the Earth is very few objects, such that if I destroy the ground (a whole tectonic plate, for instance), the rest of the world is kinda screwed. :)

I don't really have a problem with Forging as a magic system. I'm just trying to poke holes in it (which *is* something I'm pretty good at--comes from my very logical programming mind).

As far as the story focus, I suppose you're doing a very good job. However, character biographies are not very popular with most groups, and that's essentially what you're writing. We all grew up (for the most part), so we all know how it's like. Throwing in an alien world is only marginally more exciting. I need a bit more plot to look forward to in the early part of the book. Otherwise, I'm likely to skip to the second section in hopes that something more interesting has developed.
I don't have good days. I have great days, where I'm a magician ridding the world of all evil, or at least everything I don't like. And then I wake up, and it's back to work for me.

LongTimeUnderdog

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The earth may be a few objects but how far down do you have to dig before you reach said plates?  And also the fact that they only exist in theory rather then definitive fact based on a model building on the original and currently unused continental drift model.  IF you could reach a plate and nuke it, go for it.  Except that they're used to being broken up .  It's called volcanoes.

And since you're bringing up "vivid" memories vs "intense memories," I'll hit you up with some neurophysiology on the subject:

Human memory, in every human, is one hundred percent vivid and stored.  Human beings don't actually forget anything.  Alternatively, we aren't able to RECALL everything.  And there's a difference.  All memory is based on our emotional state at the time of the memory, our emotional state at the time we're recalling it, and our emotional connection to the memory.  To simplify, all memory is emotion.

Being able to recall events, facts, dates, or any other number of details does not make the memory intense or strong, simply one of many (like the color of your car or your license plate number). It might be possible to recall point for point of a fist fight with someone, but if the same fight occurs while you're rescuing a hostage, there is going to be a larger, emotional connection to it.  That is what is known as "intense" memory, or "strong Memories."  Thinking back on a movie of book in which something happened that made you cry or cheer, those are strong or intense moments while the rest of the film of book are simply normal moments.

To further illustrate the emotional ties to recall, if you speak to someone who witnesses a car crash into a tree you can change the estimated speed recalled by adjusting the words used in the question.  If you ask the person, "How fast was the car going when it ran into the tree?" they might give you a speed between 20 - 30 mph.  If you ask them, "How fast was the car going when it crashed into the tree?" they will likely give you an answer somewhere between 32-55 mph.
If you're looking for a more personal example, think about how you would feel if someone punched you.  Then ask yourself how you would feel if your father punched you (both examples assuming a stable, and "normal" house hold).

In the case of the above research, an Eidetic memory would only allow you more recalled memories to chose from in performing Forging, and not in anyway effect their strength or intensity.  But if you're looking for an example of someone who's brain is wired differently and how it would effect their magical output, you would have to go no further then the character Guli, whose strength is already several derivations above everyone else.

Now if you're looking for magic that could actually blow the world up, that's Lyrisism.


ErikHolmes

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I liked this Jin chapter a lot, many things happen, we finally get to see Jin reach his potential, and it feels like the plot gets moving.

I think you do a great job of showing us what's in Jin's head. For me his emotions and thoughts are believable and interesting. They don't feel forced to me.

Having said that, I think I've figured out what's bothered me about your story up to now. At least the Jin chapters. I've always found them easy to read, but at the same time they leave me thinking that something is off. I think I figured out today what it is.

I think you are trying too hard to conceal things from the reader and/or mislead the reader. I'll give you a few examples:

First, lets look at Forging. Now that you've mentioned it in this thread I can see how what Jin is doing is using memories to power his magic. But in the chapter it sort of just comes off as confusing. I think what I don't like about it is that you are kind of stepping around what is happening, without really telling us. I think your story would be a lot stronger if you just told us what was happening. I'm not suggesting that you dumb down your story, but right now it just feels like your hesitant to tell us whats really going on. Don't be.

Seconds, Jin as a fighter. I feel like we're being misled about him being a badass. Maybe Jaelen has worked hard to erode his confidence, pitting him against fighters that she know will beat him, etc. I understand that for your story you want him to think that he can't win.

But I always had trouble buying that. I can't remember specific examples right now, but I never liked how Jin was treated like some kind of whuss. He's been training too long. Maybe go with the angle that Jaelen's been acting like he's not good enough to use weapons so he's had to fight with crappy ones (because she knew that other weapons would explode when he finally figured out how to Forge, etc.)

I don't know, I'm really not trying to criticize you too much. I like the story. I just think that if you were to start being more open with the reader, gave more things away, the story would flow and seem a LOT better. (Because I think you have a really cool story going on, I just think you are concealing it from us too much).

I hope this helps!
Who the hell is interrupting my Kung Fu!